Do Americans really want liberty?
Submitted by freemarketeer on Sat, 12/01/2007 - 12:49A couple of weeks ago I read in the blogosphere somewhere (sorry, I don't remember where) a posting where someone theorized that most Americans don't really want liberty.
It isn't that they don't want freedom, its that they are afraid of groups with whom they don't agree also having liberty. Kind of like, if you can get your party in power, they can have coercive power over the beliefs you don't like.
I've been thinking about this a lot since I read it. Freedom means freedom for everyone...warts and all.
Of course RP supporters get it--we are a pretty diverse group and can usually see past our vast differences. BUT will most Americans feel the same way?
This is kind of making my head throb, and I'd love to hear other views.
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Yes they want liberty!
Look at all these philosophers making there long ass posts about if Americans want liberty. Obviously they want liberty. The real problem and the simple answer to your question is that the average American doesn't understand the government and that there liberty is in danger.
Freedom creates self-uncertainty
This is an awesome discussion. Freedom is NOT just a catchy campaign slogan, although I personally feel that even a lot of people on this site feel it is.
I often think (and say) that the "freedom" of Ron Paul's message is the freedom to think for oneself, not simply to freely follow. In this sense I notice that most americans, including most of my good friends and respected associates, get scared. Upon reflection I think that their fear comes in large part because many people on some level do not trust themselves; their rational abilities to critically assess and respond to all manner of information and situations.
The past couple of generations in this country have been carefully "bred" by their own modern society to be relatively dumb "sheeple" - easily pacified and guided by whomever picks up the reins of power. When someone suggests that they can remove to fence enclosing their pasture, they shut down at the thought of TOO much choice.
I also feel that many people have an inherent sense of the fragility and shortness of our own individual lives. To suggest REVOLUTION in a way as pervasive and real as what Ron Paul represents is, to people not fully committed, to threaten the possibility of a relatively happy, peaceful, comfortable end of days for them. Sacrifice in the face of the material cocoon our society offers is often just too much.
I, for one, dream of the challenges and rewards brought about by competing fairly and with integrity in a simplified America. We shall see....
"Luctor et Emergo" - Struggle and Emerge
apparently not
Just look at how they've voted for the last couple of centuries. They want free stuff, and they want you to pay for it. They want to push around their neighbors but they don't want to take personal responsibility for the abuse they endorse. They want to kill heathens and apostates, but they don't want to bloody their own hands doing it, and they certainly don't want to risk their own precious skins in the crusade. They'll vote down a two thousand dollar tax cut because they're afraid their rich neighbors will be getting a five thousand dollar tax cut. They don't want to enrich themselves so much as they wish to impoverish their adversaries.
In short, the typical American voter is venal, larcenous, and cowardly.
Viva Agora!
L G Knight Duquesne
West of 89
a novel of another america
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/161155#longdescr
The little old lady eating cat food is not the problem.
The truly venal Americans are on top. They are wealthy but want our money too and they want the little old ladies last dollar. They always complain about the poor stealing their money but:
They also want government to subsidize their businesses.
They want to manipulate the prices of basic commodities so they collude with the overt support of the government.
They want the government to let them issue predatory loans so they can make money off of the desperately poor.
When the loans fail they want to tax the middle class to bail them out.
They want their patents extended indefinitely to prevent competition in the drug market.
They gin up terror threats to sell homeland security expenditures for their cronies with companies that provide nothing.
They buy poor quality-extravagantly expensive military support “services” for our troops in the field, from private corporations with no bid contracts.
They tax the middle class in order to give tax subsidies to the most inefficient and least innovative corporations.
They enable the dumping of toxins and greenhouse gasses into the environment to enhance the wealth of the top 1% while endangering our children’s futures. We have to live in their waste or pay to clean it up with our own taxes.
They block the development of new products and systems that would put our communications systems at a par with other developed (any many less developed) countries.
They borrow and spend to mortgage our futures while simultaneously transferring our yet-to-be-earned income to the already super rich.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
AMERICA IS THE SOVIET UNION OF CORPORATOCRACYS.
But the topic of the post is very interesting.
The kind of liberty you are describing is, in my mind, the highest kind of patriotism. We have political parties and the MSM working hard to divide Americans and set them against one another but if we are indeed patriots we will have to rise above it.
I have nothing against any American, even those with whom I have profound philosophical differences as long as they put the principle of liberty above their individual agendas. That means there can be no lying or manipulation of facts, no duplicity--just the honest truth as each of us sees it.
That is what Ron Paul is showing us in his campaign. I don’t agree with everything Ron Paul stands for but he respects us all enough to say what he means.
Camus "On Rebellion"
With rebellion, awareness is born. A rebel is willing to sacrifice himself for the common good, something more important than his own destiny. Rebellion is the act of an educated man aware of his own rights. I rebel-therefore we exist.
A good question
"Nothing," writes Freeman Tilden, "has been more amply demonstrated during the past three thousand years than this: that the great majority of men do not esteem, or understand, or even desire personal liberty. What they value is the semblance of liberty accompanied by indulgence."
Google Cliff Droke and Debt and Credit Bubble for an excellent series of articles examining the debt phenomenon, based on the book,"A World in Debt," by Freeman Tilden. They ran on Gold-Eagle.com in Jan-Feb 2000.
However, when the debt chickens come home to roost, and people realize they've been nothing more than patsies at a high stakes poker game, they get angry and want their money back. The key is channeling that anger into something productive. Then they'll some come to realize it's liberty they truly desire.
Jonah Goldberg?
There was an article by Jonah Goldberg comparing RP and Huckabee. It was pretty interesting. He basically called Huckabee a statist, and although he didn't agree with Dr. Paul on the war, couldn't understand why he was considered the "fringe" candidate. Huckabee is definitely the cradle to grave guy, and yes, freedom is a little scary. But I think we've had enough of what happens when you lose freedom to take that risk...
5% of people make things happen
10% of people watch things happen
85% say "What happened?"
Human nature tends to be selfish..(survival of the fittest)
Which is why we have LAWS ... and when the laws of Kings became too abusive then the law of the people (U.S. Constitution) was created to mediate between the natural tendancies of the people to be selfish. All people want Liberty. And since most people are less than perfect we need just laws... i.e. The Constitution.
This is why the Constitution is just as valid today as it was 230 years ago... Human nature hasnt changed even if technology has.
With true freedom comes true
With true freedom comes true responsibility for oneself. That means things like being responsible for what you buy or consume instead of relying on the FDA to say something is safe or not and you let the free market determine if a product is good or safe etc.
The argument against that is well what if someone dies consuming something thats not safe before he market determines such. That is where true responsibility comes in which is; it is up to you the consumer to ask for references scientific studies, proof etc. not the nanny state. And we all know how well the FDA has done in preventing harmful things from getting on the market and the market itself finally deemed it as garbage
It's up to you to check out the contractors you hire and their references not the contracting board they are just a revenue generator. I find when you put things into those terms most people do indeed not want true freedom they are content to let a nanny government look out for them.
Having said that it is gratifying to see so many people resonating with Ron Paul's message the tide is turning but there will be some bumps along the way
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If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin. Samuel Adams
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End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
I think there's a lot of truth in that
Many people want their freedom, but don't want other people to have theirs.
What I'm always amazed at is that when one party massively increases the power of government, but never think about what that means when the political party they hate gets control of that power.
Sometimes I like to yank a neocon's chains when they say something like "we have to have the Patriot Act to fight terrorism."
"What are you going to do when Hillary has that power?"
For the ones that aren't completely in denial ("Oh, that would never happen!"), it occasionally causes a light bulb to go off in their head.
Most People have no clue what Liberty means..
Liberty to most is a great sounding word. But they have no idea what it means.. They think they have liberty now.. Just the opposite.. if Pauls has taught me anything its that Liberty is Freedom from State oppression be that in privacy or taxes, telling me what to put in my body etc..
Liberty to most common folk believe that we have liberty now.. with survellence society cmeras on every street corner.. Liberty is phone tapping etc.. its all topsy turvy..
We must even after the election form a united educational front to teach what liberty is.. Ron Paul once said "Patriots are those that resist the state either with violence or peacbly with risk of imprisonment always dangling over thier heads..it is not compliance" For instance Those two people in NH resisting the government regarding the IRS stealing thier money.. they are patriots and of course in jail.. Political prsionars in my opinion.. and patriots...
Teach this and the governemtn will do anything to put the genie back in the bottle.. but they wont be able too.. if more people would give up thier normal llives for this country to resist.. more would follow.. but please resist safetly and without hurting others.. Liberty should not infringe on someonelses liberty...
With much regard
Tim Chiacchira
I think...
...many people sound like they want a nanny state, but in reality they've just learned to expect one and therefore want to make it more efficient, equal, and "compassionate".
i write alot and spend some of that time on liberal sites parlaying with social liberals. the statement i often see is "rp is great on foreign policy but his domestic issues lose me".
the argument i give is that there is a perceived disconnect between economic policy and foreign and domestic policy, and further a disconnect between foreign and domestic. i usually steer them towards some of the other liberal bloggers who understand economic policy, the monetary system and how a nanny state does the same thing to an economy as does a poor foreign policy.
some get it, some don't. but the same can be said of some of the neocons and their hellbent stance on invasionary, undeclared wars.
keep reaching out. there are a lot of intelligent liberals too ;-)
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Many want a Nanny Government
Believe it or not, freedom is a pretty scarey concept for a lot of people.
They seem to agree with the word "freedom" but when you scratch the surface you can dig up a whole bunch of fears they think Nanny-Government will alleviate.
The indoctrination is nearly complete, hopefully its not too late.
Socialists are Everywhere