Has any one read Peter Kropotkin's work?
I don't post much but have been on this forum for along time and enjoying all of your debates and points of view and even the occasional bickering I'd like to ask if anyone has ever read Kropotkin's work and what you may think of it.
I thought I would enlighten myself some and read up on Marx and Engels to get a better understanding of socialism and were they were coming from but I found many of there ideas wanting, the dictatorship of the proletarian and graduated income taxes and all that, but then I ran across the works of Prince Peter Kropotkin who I found quite fascinating. His works: The Conquest of Bread and Mutual Aid (as well as others) were for me, very enlightening.
For those who are unfamiliar with him and his works, he is considered the father of anarcho-communism but as "dirty" as that word may sound to many, he is well worth the read in my humble opinion. Some viewed him as a kook and his vision Utopian (we know what that's like) to others as a genius. Some contemporaries saw him as leading a near perfect life, including Oscar Wilde, who described him as "a man with a soul of that beautiful white Christ which seems coming out of Russia." Hell of thing to say about a man.
I know that many of you, if not all, are against forced "national" socialism by the government as am I, however I don't find the concept itself, that is, the free association of individuals coming together in a "social" endeavor(s) for the benefit of all, if it be there will. To deny such I believe is to deny liberty.
Now I know, many will say "socialism" doesn't work and you'll throw many examples as to why it doesn't saying there will be to many who want a "free ride" at the expense of others and this may be true. Kropotkin addressed this issue and the answer was simple, if you are able to and do not pull your own weight (what ever your profession maybe) then you simply "don't eat" per say and you will be shunned away, and free to fend for yourself if you wish. Indeed that stands true even today, if you don't work you don't eat and we recognize and support those who are unable to. (Even though there are those who abuse this) The "reward" for your contribution to society is that all will be free to take part in the abundance of each others labor, enhanced by technology unleashing more of our time from the drudgery of "work" to pursue other goals that one may wish. A parallel not unlike that advocated by the Zeitgeist movement today. In fact Kropotkin recognized the potential for man to over produce, and "market saturation" a hundred years ago. (I wonder if Fresco was influenced by Kropotkin.)
Kropotkin addresses many such issues surrounding anarcho-socialism (communism) and makes compelling arguments in Mutual Aid and the Conquest of Bread.
Anyway I'm not trying to push anarcho-communism or any other ideology, for I find myself struggling and somewhere on the "fence" you could say between the Libertarian right and left paradigm after reading his work. My only concern is the advancement of liberty but sometimes I think I have to much of an "open mind" but to be sure I'm not against the "classical American dream" capitalism like mom and pop selling trinkets or what nots on the corner store, working hard, trying to improve there lot nor do I find the vision of Kropotkin offensive either.
Just a thought: If things keep going the way they are, we may all find ourselves one day modeling a new society after the Amish or similar communes in order to survive. Socialism may be closer than we all may think.
Well if your interested, his collected works can be found here and there are many: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/Krop... and welcome your comments and value your opinions but please don't hang me up by my toes! Ha Ha.
I enjoyed your post
One of the problems in understanding the truth about human nature, and basing a sound system of government around it, is that human nature fluctuates based on the conditions of the environment.
For example, if the environment is providing you with plenty, you might enjoy a walk in the park by the lake and feed the ducks some of your extra bread. That's very joyful and part of human nature. However, if the environment is not providing you with enough, you might use whatever extra bread you have to set a trap for the ducks so that you can kill them and feed yourself and your family.
The big fish eats the little fish.
True big fish does eat little fish.
I know it's fanciful and all but I don't think he was so much supporting the idea of a system of government to pass law so much as a system to nurture cooperation and a confederation of communes, if that makes sense. Realizing that by taking control of our own work, our own production we could alleviate much of our suffering. That lack of bread. Giving us more time to feed the ducks. When the markets become saturated factories shut down and lay off workers. One could argue that that is what is taking place right now. Of course when this happens than you have a lack of bread. The boom and bust cycles. Of course in Kropotkin world when you achieve market saturation you have created abundance for all. Know one lacks bread. I am convinced such a world could exist but not likely to happen.
Thanks I'm glad you enjoyed the post.
I think the main
issue with "utopias" is that they're,... well,... utopias.
ie, they can't happen.
But it makes a nice daydream.
Yes BigT
at least for now I'll have to agree with you. Maybe one day man will get tired of being exploited, sent off to senseless wars, thrown in jail, have there wealth stolen by bankers and greedy governments and all that and say enough is enough. Until then we are doomed to repeat history over and over. Such is our destiny I suppose.
But there will always be those of us as well who will carry on the fight for liberty.
It does make a nice day dream though.
The future is unwritten
"Just a thought: If things keep going the way they are, we may all find ourselves one day modeling a new society after the Amish or similar communes in order to survive. Socialism may be closer than we all may think."
I agree with you, I think we will have to return to a more agrarian way of life no matter what "ism" is attached to it. The Amish are doing pretty well these days aren't they?
Ye I don't
think it will bother them one bit if our economy was to collapse around us. They'll just shake there heads and say we told you so. Your right the future is not etched in stone but history does tend to repeat itself.
the free association of individuals
..."the free association of individuals coming together in a "social" endeavor(s) for the benefit of all"...
This, in my opinion is hard wired into the human psyche but can only be justified and/or successful when the free association is affected via individual desire and decision...not systemic, codified coercion. It is also something that I believe in whole heatedly as a human on this planet and something we need a lot more of...
With this said, any system that codifies such an arrangement, and expects acquiescence from all, without regard to individual desire is tyranny...as is the usurpation of the fruits of such an arrangement by those that take no part in their production. It is not, and can not be a "governmental system" without tyranny...affected by force.
That the power that enables force always seems to gravitate to the same kind of people, no matter what the system, seems to put the damper on any real possibility of such a system arising and succeeding for any length of time,
**“The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.” ~ Mark Twain **
"...there is no doubt that it (socialism) could not possibly have affected us so widely and so deeply as it has, had it not been heavily financed". - B. Carroll Reece
Humans are natural-born "communists"
You don't hear, "Little Billy exploits the other children so good" quite as much as "Little Billy shares with the other children so well."
Everyone loves sharing. Some love exploiting and controlling others. The latter tend to get in powerful positions to more easily exploit and control others. Communism/Socialism is an easy sale for a lot of people because they have an inherent sense of compassion. What they fail to realize is that the control-freaks will always try to control the game.
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Not... communism...
Ants are natural born communists. They have no problem sacrificing drones for the sake of the hive.
Humans are selfish by nature. It's why communism never works on the nation scale. The system takes for granted that people will work tirelessly for the good of the whole when in fact they will only work for themselves. Exploiting other people is long revered tradition of capatalism.
Don't believe me?
"An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single
student, but had once failed an entire class.
The class (students) insisted that socialism worked since no one would be
poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said,
"OK, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism."
"All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so
no one will fail and no one will receive an A."
After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The
students who had studied hard were upset while the students who had
studied very little were happy.
But, as the second test rolled around, the students who had studied little
studied even less and the ones who had studied hard decided that since
they couldn't make an A, they also studied less. The second Test average
was a D.
No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around the average grade was an
F.
The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling, all resulted
in hard feelings and no one would study for anyone else.
To their great surprise all failed. The professor told them that socialism
would ultimately fail because the harder people try to succeed the greater
their reward (capitalism) but when a government takes all the reward
away (socialism) no one will try or succeed."
Socialism and communism are interchangeable in this situation.
CHA-CHING!
CHA-CHING!
That's not communism. It's equalizing,
That's a whole different concept. I'm talikng about within family units and villages. We naturally share. It doesn't mean we are artifically held back from achieving our potential. It means we don't feel the need to take anything from anyone else.
Humans are not naturally inclined to get over on one another. But forcing them to share is stealing, and nobody likes stealing.
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So communism...
Equalization of wealth...
Yeah...
CHA-CHING!
CHA-CHING!
Your story was not about weath. Neither was mine
You're such a jackass. Go to school.
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*sigh*...
First of all, it's summer vacation. School is out.
Second... if you weren't always looking for semantical points to call people names over (which seems to suggest you consider yourself above the rules of this site as this is the second time I've had to remind you of them) you would realize that I was merely suggesting the nature of communism through an example by mentioning the "equalization of wealth".
It looks like I'm going to have to spell it out for you.
Communism is the equalization of everything. Political power. Personal property. The "state" as we traditionally know it does not exist under a pure communist system. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need, yada yada yada.
Human greed prohibits the proper functioning of such a system.
CHA-CHING!
CHA-CHING!
Great Post
**“The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.” ~ Mark Twain **
"...there is no doubt that it (socialism) could not possibly have affected us so widely and so deeply as it has, had it not been heavily financed". - B. Carroll Reece
Yep I agree
and that's been the pattern throughout history. The decentralization of all power seems the only solution. If that's possible and can be maintained.
You miss the point too
Freedom is the only solution.
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Explain
If you would.
I've read Kropotkin.
The one issue I have with him and his grand Utopia is the same one that I have with pure Anarchism... it is indeed a perfect system if you take actual human beings out of it.
If you have those in power that can exploit the system, then they will.
Look at our current Republic, which has a ton of inherent checks and balances against exploitation... read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.. then turn on a news channel and watch if for a few hours.
There is no similarities between those documents and reality anymore, is there?
Now take Kropotkin's ideas... then add some things. Like greed, a thirst for power... despotism.
It would fall a lot quicker than the Republic idea. And I'm still not sure about his ideas in Manifesto of the Sixteen... it seemed... off.
Just my two cents... again, I love the theory. But it is just that.
~Live life to its fullest, with an open heart, open arms and most important... an open mind~
Hey Devon!
glad to see you back.
bridge. water. all that.
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TY for that..
and cudos on your debating skills... :)
I'm fine with it now... we're on the same side.
:)
~Live life to its fullest, with an open heart, open arms and most important... an open mind~
Thanks for the link
I've heard about him but never read him. People should understand that there were many great thinkers from that period whose work is neglected. Kropotkin made a very accurate prediction about the Bolshleviks.
This is true
many were neglected and shunned and a great thinker he was. Whether you agree with him or not. To be sure he was the "arch enemy of Marx and Engels and hated seeing Russia going down the road of party dictatorship and the destruction of the free communes that had arisen before the Bolsheviks to power.
One of my favorite history books
Is "The Proud Tower", by Barbara Tuchman. The chapters on the early Anarchists are excellent.
Thanks !
I'll have read that one.
How many toes ya got?
Stick your feet up here!
I have so much to say about what you have said, that I don't have time to type that much, but I'll give you a bump for someone who is ready to take it on.