This is for all the people claiming third party now threads! Let's be realistic please!
I want to point out that I am all for a third party success and support the people pushing for real political change in the election process. We do need to be realistic though and not only understand why most of the candidates supported by www.retakecongress.com are running as Republicans but support them as well.
I welcome honest and meaningful debate in this thread so we can all become better educated on how we proceed and how we will attempt to succeed!
The problem is that every third party including the major ones such as the Libertarian Party and the Constitution Party have had no success on the national level for about 40 years. Keep in mind that 40 years ago it was much easier to compete with the dualopoly and to think that for some reason third parties will somehow have some great success in 2010 is just not realistic.
Does anyone really believe that the candidates running as freedom candidates would not run on third paty tickets in a second if they actually thought they had a chance at winning? The 2 party system controls the elections and our only chance at this point is to change the system is from within. We can't fight them from the outside looking in, we must fight them from the inside of the brick walls designed to keep us out!
Let's take a look at the major third parties.
The Constitution Party is a nationalist United States political party rooted in the paleoconservative movement. It was founded as the U.S. Taxpayers' Party in 1992. The party's official name was changed to the Constitution Party in 1999; however, some state affiliate parties are known under different names. The party's goal as stated in its own words is "to restore our government to its Constitutional limits and our law to its Biblical foundations." The party puts a large focus on immigration, calling for stricter penalties towards illegal immigrants and a moratorium on legal immigration until all federal subsidies to immigrants are discontinued.The party absorbed the American Independent Party, originally founded for George Wallace's 1968 presidential campaign. The American Independent Party of California was an affiliate of the Constitution Party since its founding, but disaffiliated itself after the 2008 Constitution Party Convention to support Alan Keyes and his America's Independent Party. The Constitution Party's affiliate in California now bears the name of California Constitution Party.
They have been at it since 1968, can anyone tell me what major impact they have made on the national level?
The Libertarian Party is a United States political party founded on December 11, 1971
They have been at it since 1971, can anyone tell me what major impact they have made on the national level?
I am not trying to burst anyones bubble but we need to be realistic if we are to have any shot at winning in 2010!
As pointed out by ZAK from Daily Paul!
Peter Schiff, Gary Clift, Adam Kokesh, Rex Brocki, RJ Harris, Frank Vasovski, Paul Lambert, John Dennis, Chris Simcox, Rachel Grubb, Joe McArtor, Peter James Bearse, Mark Reed, Debra Medina, and Ray McBerry are ALL running as REPUBLICANS.
Look at all the candidates we have endorsed at www.retakecongress.com and help them!
I hope this puts some insight on why we are all doing what we are doing to make real change in this country!
As a former chairman and current secretary of one of those
3rd parties, I understand all too well, exactly why we don't see more success:
people, honestly don't give a rats butt. They really don't. It is damn near worse than getting an Act passed in Congress to get people to get off their duff and do ANYTHING. Sure, everyone talks trash. But when it comes to making phone calls, waving signs, going door to door, heck - MAKING DONATIONS, MOST people say "not me." (Actually, they don't say anything, they pretend to you that they don't even exist)
Then these same people have the audacity to demand to know where these 3rd parties are and why they aren't doing anything. (I'm serious here, this isn't a joke)
The FEW that do actually step forward, generally REFUSE to do anything unless it is within either the Republican or Democrat parties.
The problem with that, is they can't seem to figure out that THE GAME IS RIGGED. The Party Establishments WON'T LET YOU TAKE OVER. They have the bull by the proverbial balls and they aren't letting go. YOU CAN'T work the inside UNLESS you tow their line. YOU CANNOT come in as a reformer against the establishment and expect to get any headway. They will rip you to shreds. They play dirtier than marsh mud. They don't care. They are not concerned with their communities or country, they care only about being the big fish in their local pond.
When you challenge the establishment and their minions you are attacking the social status (their very sole means of self-identification) and they will defend it to the death. (and in some cases in history they actually have gone that far)
THE ONLY WAY to win as an anti-establishment, pro-liberty candidate, is to do so OUTSIDE the Republican and Democrat parties. The path inside is BLOCKED ENTIRELY.
(unless of course you are rich, are 50+ years old and well established in the community - and even then, it's an uphill battle beyond reasonable belief)
If you want to win, do so as an independent, or 3rd party, and you yourself, organize each precinct in your district. It's the only way. All politics is local, and it doesn't get any more local than door to door. There is no other way around it.
Best of luck to those running as Republicans. I support them. I suspect though, that those particular states and districts are a little more friendly and open to such candidates than mine. Each district will be different. In most cases, taking our experience with Dr. Paul in '08, there will be FEW districts open to Liberty oriented candidates, either with respect to the voters, or the party leadership, or both. I pray I'm wrong. But I don't have any experience, nor is there any documented history, to prove otherwise.
We will try, but in the end, this is all going to end badly. Very badly.
I love third parties, but at
I love third parties, but at this stage of the game...the way to victory is to run as a liberty Democrat or liberty Republican. My dad always said that it is easier to work within the system than outside. He also said that the system...whatever it is...will likely crush the outsider...work inside the system and take it!
The country is not fully ready to expand to a third party system at this stage...no matter how great that would be. To argue otherwise lacks any sort of evidence. Some day we may well get there, but not at this moment in time.
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Federal Reserve to the American People:
"Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam."
================
Who is John Galt? Vote ███ ███ 2012!
I've always been a fan of
I've always been a fan of supporting third parties. But there are ways for us to get elected. One way could be running as a Ron Paul Democrat or Republican. Another could be running as an Independent but with the support of third parties. In the long run, it doesn't matter which party label as long as we make a big change.
Where is the second party ?
Where is the second party ? this would only add 1 which would mean we finally have 2..
naughty, naught
I agree with The Patriot but with a Twist
I would argue that NO PARTY has been successful in the last.....oh ummm say 230+ years, hahahaha.
You cannot abdicate your authority at the ballot-box - Give that power to a Bill or Individual Politician - and Then "expect" for them to fight for your self-rule.
The 100% Un-disputed Winner of the Definition of Insanity Award
"abdicate to liberate" -- should be our declared motto.
Counter-Economics is the only solution -- Both Mathematically and Philosophically.
I give DPers two full years before this "truth" dons on them; no wait. We'll be smack in the middle of an election; make that 5 years. You must account for 1 year post-election loss-blitching.
Blitching is Blog Ranting 'cept not spell'd the same -- smile
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
This is why we love you
This is why we love you Octo. Kepp up the good work!
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A commonly discussed subject.
I'll distill some previous conversations:
3rd Party not corrupted yet, so easier.
Major party corrupted, but ripe for takeover.
Both ways impossible, corruption is everywhere.
My suggestion several times in the past is to run candidates at all slots where we can get in. Regardless of what party. Fill all available slots, and win where we can.
Just use the slot from a Party you can run in.Just get in and take care of business to the extent that your office permits.
Dem Party where you can, Repub Party where you can, independent where you can.
You don't have to be idealogically aligned with the Parties, you only have to be a Party member and use that for your purposes to get into office.
Maybe they'll just think of you as a "maverick" or a "Blue Dog".
Just swarm around inside them like worms.
Then they don't know how to know you, marginalize you, or fight you.
It's the "Individualism Party". We're everywhere and nowhere. We're us, we're them, we're you.
Stealth candidates.
It might seem all grandiose and attractive to march under a banner, but it might be alot more effective to do some "political guerilla warfare" in terms of operating under their radar and getting into some power positions where we can do some good.
While the GOP seems to be commonly mentioned as the Party to focus on, remember that there are Dems available to beat in primaries too.
And while the Dem Party might seem so far from our way of thinking as to seem ludicrous to try, getting in there and mucking up their works is not a bad idea. Throw a few wrenches in their machine, and get some freedom stuff on the table, no matter whether they hate it or not.
And local positions are the "ground troops", and no matter what the top people say, if the ground troops don't carry the water, the top dogs don't get their policies instituted.
There's alot of ways to chip away at this.
Don't confine yourselves to one strategy only. Use ALL tools at your disposal, and all strategies that can get us into ANY positions of power, from lowest to highest.
Start taking ground anywhere we can get it.
Well Said
Politically even though I'm a Republican, my views are much closer to Democratic Senator Webb of Virginia than either of the two lady Republican Senators from Maine
I'm suppose to support them out of party loyalty instead of a Blue Dog Democrat? Nonsense Party loyalty would be good if political parties stood for something. Both parties have a whole range of views. There are conservative Republicans who will go to their graves defending G.W. Bush (a Liberal, even radical Republican), who betrayed them, out of some sense of party loyalty.
Pay attention to the candidate and what the candidate stands for, forget party, forget the letter in front of the name.
Ask the question, if Ron Paul were a Democrat with his present views, would you reject him because of his party?
There is No Political Solution
If you want to be realistic then you have to admit there is no political solution period. Running 8 freedoms candidates will change nothing even if you can get them all elected which is doubtful since the elections are a sham.
How is trying to get people elected in sham elections to the Mafia going to change how the Mafia operates?
You are operating under the illusion that there is still some legitimacy in the elections much less the entire government. It's all a fraud there is no government.
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/102707
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End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
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End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
I tend to agree with the first line, but for a different
reason. My doubt as to a political solution, though growing slowly over the last 3 or so decades, is based primarily upon numbers and human nature. Unfortunately successful politics never seems to be about right or wrong; only about numbers. Politicians don't really care who votes for them. They only want at least one more vote than half the total number cast. (I'm not addressing voting or ballot fraud here.) We have concocted, and live in, a system whereby a larger and larger number of people (and corporations) have been induced to expect (eventually to clamor for) more and more government handouts (taking many different forms). More and more people are induced to believe that, in effect, the world does indeed owe them a living. (not to mention healthcare, a home, food, childcare, a car, a college "education", pills for erectile dysfunction, blue suede shoes, etc.) People can vote themselves a raise, or some other public emolument, via a ballot box, with nary a thought that such seizures, now sanctified by the ballot box process, rely to no less extent on the police power of the state in order to be put into effect. Once those numbers arrive at some certain level (which I am not able to exactly pinpoint) and the numbers on the "takers" side far outweigh the numbers of tax-paupers, then I have to wonder about the genuine mathematical possibility or probability that the trend will ever be reversed, short of experiencing a general or widespread collapse. It reminds me of R.J. Ringer's "mysterious multiplier" effect that he talked about in an early-80s book called: How You Can Find Happiness During the Collapse Of Western Civilization. If 3 steal from 1, then it's robbery. If you multiply the numbers by one million, then it's majority rule. That Dr. Paul has been an inspirational, though relatively isolated, exception, is something for which I'm grateful. Unfortunately, when one compares Dr. Paul with the greater body of elected officials, he has few equals. One other way to look at the real source of the problem is to imagine that you could legally prevent someone (like say a Maxine Waters) from running for Congress. Without a fundamental change in the mindset of the voters in her current district, exactly what kind of representation would they be most likely to elect in her place? I would think it likely that they would wind up choosing the same kind of representative with just a different name. If politicians reflect the people, then it's the people who have to be changed......and that's a mighty task.
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"An economy built on fiat money is a society on its way to ashes."
_________________________________________
"An economy built on fiat money is a society on its way to ashes."
You listen to AJ way too
You listen to AJ way too much. If your case is sound then answer me this. How does Ron Paul keep getting elected? Is he a shill for the GOP posing as a voice of liberty?
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WTF are you talking about
WTF are you talking about did you even comprehend. Oh and I don't listen to AJ. So please drop the emotional baggage. Just becuase I burst your emotional bubble doesn't mean you shouldn't face reality. Ron Paul has been in congress for 20 years what good has it done? It has changed nothing! It hasn't even slowed thier agenda down wake the F** up. You are the one talking about facing reality so do it!
You think because they allow a Ron Paul here and there to get elected to keep you in the illusion that is going to make a difference? Again face reality or continue to play thier game of illusion!
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End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
Ron Paul has been in
Ron Paul has been in congress for 20 years what good has it done? It has changed nothing! It hasn't even slowed thier agenda down wake the F** up. You are the one talking about facing reality so do it!
It woke me up and millions more this past election and I say that is a great accomplishment. Why some can't see that is beyond me.
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Ok you win. We should all
Ok you win. We should all quit and go hide until we have nothing left. Shame on me for fighting!
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Perhaps reading
Perhaps reading comprehension lessons are in order. Where did I say go hide and do nothing? Oh nowhere that was just your stupid strawman argument.
When I get these kinds of responses especially from those claming to be more informed on freedom issues it reminds me why America is in the trouble it is.
This kind of petty BS abounds here because people can't let go of thier emotional BS and focus on real issues that have teeth. Grow up people we have been trying a political solution for nearly a century and where has it gotten us? Right here on the precipice of disaster. That's the reality and if you can't face it then get the hell out of the way and let the real patriots continue to press the fight!
Sorry but I just have little patience for this BS anymore...
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End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
Strawman? Your answer was
Strawman? Your answer was read and comprehended very clearly and I quote : Ron Paul has been in congress for 20 years what good has it done? It has changed nothing! It hasn't even slowed thier agenda down wake the F** up. You are the one talking about facing reality so do it!
That statement speaks for itself doesn't it?
I would be interested in hearing your advice on what we should do, plase elaborate on the plan you see.
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Yes the line speaks for
Yes the line speaks for itself it says that Ron Paul despite all his political efforts has not accomplished even a slow down of the agenda the has led us to the edge of disaster. Do you not understand the difference of "accomplishing nothing" as opposed to "doing nothing"? The point is why continue doing the same actions that are accomplishing nothing. It is reasonable to change the course of action when the results or lack there of constantly prove it accomplishing nothing.
I made another thread on this issue and my plan is there.
-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
um, we JUST STARTED waking
um, we JUST STARTED waking up. This is the first time Ron Paul tried to run for GOP POTUS candidate and it worked out GREAT! So many woke up!
Ventura 2012
Yeah it's worked out so
Yeah it's worked out so great here we are on the edge of martial law, forced vaccinations, and a complete communist take over. So many have woken up that maybe in twenty years we might have enough to effect change... Oh wait we don't have that kind of time...
-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
done with you
Ok, its pretty clear you don't support what we stand for here, and I'm sick of you saying that Ron Paul hasn't accomplished anything. You have your own agenda and it's clear that you don't have the same goals as the rest of us. I think it's time you go post on GiveUp.com, spread your cancer somewhere else.
yep, someone who has a one week old handle just said that you have bad intentions and you are not supporting the goal of this website or this movement.
As for me being a shill, I am a C4L plant, here to take on the Obama Plants that just want us to give up, just like everything you have been posting for weeks.
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/103059
I think he's focused on a
I think he's focused on a more immediate danger. No need to kick someone off the island just because he has different concerns. There are many here who focus on political solutions, some on preparedness, others on spreading information, etc... but we're all here for the same general reason.
I understand your position,
but the Republican party has left a really nasty taste in my mouth. So I have to respectfully disagree.
Actually, I think it may be very timely to put the grand old party behind us and move forward with the Libertarian Party. If all the politicians you just mentioned would, as a group movement, switch their party affiliations to the Libertarian Party, vive la differánce! And I think there just may be a large movement to follow. If I, for one, had that choice, I would move over from my Independent position in a heartbeat. But I will never vote Republican again.
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It is good and proper to respect the U.S. flag, perpetuated with the blood of American heroes. It is a fatal mistake not to recognize those who wrap themselves in the same flag to cover up their crimes against the American people.
~ Sherman H. Skolnick
. @ @ . Power to the People!
@ O @ -----> PEOPLE
. @ @ . NOT Corporate Entities!
You wouldn't vote for Ron Paul.....
or Rand Paul...or Peter Schiff....just because of the R?...
the party doesn't make the person.
Fellow Veterans, This Is A Call To Arms!
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February 20, 2012 - Veterans For Ron Paul March on D.C.!
Your logic suggests that you
Your logic suggests that you are voting for the party not the person. This is exactly what the GOP does, how does your agenda differ from the controlled parties agenda? This is exactly the problem this country has. We vote party not people, Voting for a letter on a lapel is just absolutely insane in my opinion.
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It's a matter of trust.
I don't. How CAN I? How can you?
I don't believe that I'm alone in this mind set or this feeling of angst. I truely believe that the time for transition is NOW. But we have to do it TOGETHER, as a movement: as ONE. Otherwise I fear that we are doomed to repeat our failures. When we continue to repeat the same behavior over and over again while expecting a different result, we are DOOMED to failure. The Republican Party has failed and their tired philosophy needs to be retired.
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It is good and proper to respect the U.S. flag, perpetuated with the blood of American heroes. It is a fatal mistake not to recognize those who wrap themselves in the same flag to cover up their crimes against the American people.
~ Sherman H. Skolnick
. @ @ . Power to the People!
@ O @ -----> PEOPLE
. @ @ . NOT Corporate Entities!
you're speaking with emotion
you're speaking with emotion and not logic. Trust me, no one hates the GOP establishment more than I do.
You need to put things into perspective. There are people DYING every day because we dont have power. We dont have TIME to waste! We MUST work within the GOP!
Ventura 2012
Good job
Keep up the good work-you and ThePatriot
NO! I'm sorry, but I can't accept that!
But you're right about one thing:
WE MUST WORK TOGETHER!
******************
It is good and proper to respect the U.S. flag, perpetuated with the blood of American heroes. It is a fatal mistake not to recognize those who wrap themselves in the same flag to cover up their crimes against the American people.
~ Sherman H. Skolnick
. @ @ . Power to the People!
@ O @ -----> PEOPLE
. @ @ . NOT Corporate Entities!
Just who is that masked Patriot? :)
Bump for Liberty...and Victory....
Fellow Veterans, This Is A Call To Arms!
http://www.facebook.com/events/192677970828185/
February 20, 2012 - Veterans For Ron Paul March on D.C.!
I am
I am Batman!
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