Does Congress have the authority to pass a PATRIOT ACT without consent of the people ?
Submitted by POW on Sun, 08/30/2009 - 22:33
Who is the final authority in matters concerning the bill of rights ?
»





















unfortunately, the GOP
unfortunately, the GOP sheeple actually supported the Patriot Act.
Ventura 2012
If Congress wishes to pass
If Congress wishes to pass legislation that is in contradiction with the Constitution, then it requires an amendment to the Constitution or it simply does not become law.
As per Judge Andrew Napolitano, the Patriot Act has been ruled to be unconstitutional by Federal Judges 5-6 times already.
...
Huh?
Seems there is a LOT of legislation that is passed by Congress that is completely lacking in constitutional authority. If I'm not mistaken, part of the job of the federal courts (and, ultimately, the Supreme Court) is to act as a "check" to the constitutional overreaching of Congress when it passes such laws as the Patriot Act.
I'd be curious to see these Supreme Court cases Judge Napolitano is referring to; I do know that there have been three Supreme Court rulings against the FBI in their use of National Security Letters in obtaining information in their criminal investigations. Specifically, in these three cases the ruling was against the fact that NSL recipients are "gagged" when they receive these letters; this is a violation of the recipients' First Amendment rights. Here's a link to the three cases:
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/nationalsecurityletters/index.html
But these cases were effective in attacking only one provision of the Patriot Act; unless these other cases Napolitano referred to succeeded in a much broader attack on the Patriot Act, I assume that most of this law still stands, unfortunately for us all...
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem. ("I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude"). Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 30 January 1787.
Only if it had fallen within the confine of the Constitution.
Which it did not. Any law passed which is unconstitutional is a non-existent law, as though it had never been passed. There have been a number of Supreme Court cases in reference to the aforementioned.
Sorry to burst yet another
Sorry to burst yet another bubble, but there is nothing to prevent the Congress to pass legislation that is not in keeping with the Constitution. In fact, Congress so flagrantly engages in this that a few enlightened souls have decided to introduce HR 450, The Enumerated Powers Act, which would require sponsors of a bill to "specify the source of authority under the United States Constitution for the enactment of laws." If this were passed, Congress would be a much less busy place...who knows, maybe they could use all that spare time to host a few more town hall meetings. God forbid they should go outside the Beltway and listen to the people who elected them...
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem. ("I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude"). Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 30 January 1787.
Ummm Ok...
I would say the constitution is un-constitutional, as it is sole being is FORCE. But wait a minute here... without taxation, you would have no constitution ( after all it formed the whole fiasco ) hmmmn. After all, wasn't that the plan?
Ahhh, the Supreme Court. A bunch of men deciding and interpreting what rights the slaves shall have. Hand picked by the ruling class bloodline.
Talk about being duped. First off, they instill a system of force, then they fix it where only they control the law making, and then they control the final interpretation of you're rights.
This puts us in control how???
Now if you think it didn't start off that way, read the last paragraph of Article 1 Section 8. Tell me it wouldn't have ended up there.
2bfree: I've read many of
2bfree:
I've read many of your critiques of representative democracy, and I freely own that they are not all wrongheaded. If you read my longish post on this thread, hopefully you would see that I also believe that the Patriot Act perfectly illustrates what is wrong with democracy as it is practiced in our government today.
I don't think we entirely see eye to eye on taxation, but I recognize that money does feed tyranny. We disagree on the ultimate source of oppression; you believe it is the Constitution itself, and I believe oppression arises when legislation is passed that does not properly respect the Constitution. Money gotten through coercion--in other words, taxation--is what also makes bad legislation possible and allows it to be codified and enforced as laws. Cut off the money, cut off the head of the Leviathan.
But I have a question for you. You ably criticize the government as it is now. What do you believe is the ideal form of government? Answer in this thread, email me, or start your own thread--your choice. I just want to know.
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem. ("I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude"). Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 30 January 1787.
Hmmmn.
Tis a good question. You ask what is my opinion of an ideal form of government?.....
One in which you can "volunteer" your money, time and effort if you so choose. The key word being "choose".
One that has a opt out clause if you choose NOT to participate in cohersion. you will have to excuse me if I want that in writing, lol.
Or maybe, none at all.... I don't know....we have never really had the option because the same bunch/bloodline has been in control for a long time.
I really don't know why we don't see eye to eye on taxation.... are you taller than me?
In order to get the next part, you will have to come to the realization that taxation is a FORCE. You must treat the sickness of trying to justify it. We justify it because we don't how to "cope" with something so terrible. So we justify it, to make ourselves feel better about it and thus the problem tends to stick around and fester. FORCE needs to be clearly understood for what it is, not whitewashed or brainwashed to the masses. Why are we denied so much knowledge in public education? Did you ever ask yourself, why?
How can we allow a centralized group complete control of taxation, law making and expect them to follow the rules? Are we kidding ourselves here? How can you enforce this? Especially when they have taken the power from the begining via TAXATION and created armies at they're disposal? ( read the paragraph above this one to understand the million dollar question ) ... are there ANY REAL rules AFTER taxation?
How can I, properly respect the constitution? It's a document I am forced to live under. One in which myself or no member of my family signed nor voted for knowingly. It's one of the only documents in the world, that breaks the very foundation of the rule of law from the begining. If I didn't sign it, or vote KNOWINGLY for it, how does it apply to me? This is the very PREMISE for contractual law. If you say it just is, well then....all contracts are null and void and there IS NO LAW. The law would therefore render itself an ILLUSION a one sided trick. There is only one answer for this.... SLAVE.
The constitution allows ONLY ONE group the power of force, law making and allows their minions the power to define and interpret our unalienable rights ( remember they make the laws ) Yes, you do get to pick the pawn every four years ( or do you? with DIEBOLD? ) Then you are forced to live under the winner, whether you like who they are or not.
I agree, cut off the head of the beast.
Firstly, let's get a few
Firstly, let's get a few things straight. At my height--five foot four inches--chances are that I am *not* taller than you. I am used to looking up to people, so yes, we don't see eye to eye, I'm sure.
As to whether I or anyone in my family have had an opportunity to examine and ratify the Constitution, in my case, the answer is yes. I have an ancestor who in fact served on the Constitutional Convention in South Carolina. Now, of course, one is not obligated to agree with every decision made by one's ancestors, but in this case, I trust John Duncan. He had spent two long years in captivity with the British in Quebec, and I am sure that the precepts of the document he was asked to examine must have appeared a lot more like freedom to him than life under the British--which broke him so severely he did not even choose to go back to his own farmland, nor accept land or even a pension that the newly formed U.S. government were prepared to offer him for his service.
Now...on to your other points. You also assume that the Constitution is a contract, but you forget the equation assumed by the concept of a contract...put in the simplest fashion, a contract is nothing more than "offer and acceptance." When you say that you haven't had an opportunity to examine it and ratify it for yourself, this is "acceptance." The government isn't actively offering the Constitution to each generation for its ratification...indeed, even from the beginning, this is not at all the intention of the ones who drafted this document. The Constitution outlines the enumerated powers (as you point out, in Article I, section 8) and the limitations of the newly formed government. It is not a contract; there is no implied right for an aggrieved individual to sue the government if any part of it is violated.
Now with regard to your "opt-out clause"...this is an interesting concept, and I would like to hear further explanation about this. Are you opting out of taxation? Would this also imply opting out of any governmental intervention--for example, police protection, use of infrastructure such as roads, etc.--and also protections given by the Constitution such as the right to free speech, the right to bear arms, the right to be secure in your person, home, and effects? BTW I am not trying to inflame you here...I am seeking your honest opinion about this. Perhaps you envision the ones who "opt out" of coercion to be islands onto themselves, not needing the protections or services of the government...and that's fine if that's in fact what you believe.
Another question, this time with regard to what I believe about all of this. I would like to see our government run in accordance with a strict interpretation of the Constitution. I agree that the government and the courts are in effect mostly run by an oligarchy--"ruling families" such as the Kennedys, and smaller versions of "aristocracy" in the various states--and that there is a lot of legislation that is passed that is not at all in accordance with Constitutional principles. I would like to see this problem cleaned up as much as you do, I suspect. I honestly believe that if we can somehow open representative democracy up to a wider variety of people (as elected officials, I mean) and force Congress to only pass bills which have Constitutional justification, this would go a long way to shrinking government and reducing the strain on taxpayers. Would this alternative be even somewhat acceptable to you? I submit that the changes I envision would in fact be a radical change in how Washington does business...and probably far beyond the ken of the mindset of many politicians in Congress today.
Last comment...I can't disagree with you about the ultimate goal of American public education. As pointed out by John Taylor Gatto, its roots lie in the example set by the militaristic Prussians of the American Revolution. The goal of public education is brainwashing, pure and simple, a most effective way of perpetuating herdlike behavior and thought.
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem. ("I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude"). Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 30 January 1787.
Of course they do
Congress can pass anything they want. It doesn't apply to the people it only applies to the corporation of the United States. They have you all duped into believing it applies to you. Even if they were the lawful congress of the organic republic (which they re not) it still does not apply to the people it only applies to the government.
That's what happens and several generations forget history or never learn it.
-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
Taxation is a force.
If they force you're labor from you, wouldn't that mean.... they OWN the courts too? Now, whilst they are using force apon you, why in ( H E double hockey sticks ) would they REALLY "have" or "want" to follow the "letter" of the law? IT'S A SYSTEM OF FORCE! These people ARE the blubberment.
History? ALL HISTORY IS DECIDED. Usually by the rulers. We are spoon fed they're manufactured tripe. There is a motive behind every deed. Especially with "free education".
You want freedom? Teach people that it is a sickness to justify cohersion.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news...
Unfortunately, the people do not get to vote on bills individually. That is what representative government is all about. We vote for someone who then becomes empowered to vote on behalf of their constituents. Under this form of government, aggrieved citizens have two choices...inform their representatives of their position on a particular bill, or when Election Day comes along, vote the bastards out.
Of course, I can see two objections with what I have just stated...firstly, the Patriot Act was passed just days after 9/11; I believe with little opportunity for both our representatives and the citizens to see the full bill and to decide if it was indeed worthy of being passed. However, I am not aware of a law or anything in the Constitution that says that bills need to be fully available to anyone for a reasonable amount of time before they are considered by the full Congress.
Secondly...you might not agree that representative democracy is a good idea at all. Obviously it takes decisions like this out of our hands and empowers elected officials to make the decisions for us. If you don't think elections are fair or you fear that the citizenry is not fully informed about matters that are decided by the Congress, you might not believe that representative democracy is an effective means of deciding such important questions regarding our nation's security. Is direct democracy practical in a society like ours? I suspect not...but if we give elected officials the right to vote on bills such as the Patriot Act on our behalf, it is our duty to let them know what we think.
Yes, I am back to Point One. Perhaps I should remind you that certain provisions of the Patriot Act need to be renewed...so we do in fact have an opportunity to let our representatives know what we think. For example...there's a bill under consideration right now, about the reasonable use of National Security Letters under the Patriot Act. If you don't know what these are...these are letters that the FBI can give a person or organization when asking for information related to possible terrorism or other criminal activity; they in effect "gag" the person from even mentioning that the FBI came calling for information. As a librarian, these are a scary reality...in my place of employment these letters have been used by the FBI for various investigations that they have conducted. As far as I am concerned, they are an abridgement of First Amendment rights and should be resisted. However...this bill is getting so little attention by the blogs that my post (Periculosa on Civil Liberties and Privacy) all the way back in June is the only one OpenCongress can find, so I am including a link to this...
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1800/show
Hope most folks didn't only read the first paragraph of my comment. If you didn't catch on, the Patriot Act is not my friend.
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem. ("I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude"). Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 30 January 1787.
"That is what representative
"That is what representative government is all about. We vote for someone who then becomes empowered to vote on behalf of their constituents."
There in lie a part of the problem. Who are the Constiuents of the Representative? Prior to the Civil War the States had open balloting systems, and you retained a copy of your ballot. But now days we have a closed ballot system, and there is NO WAY to prove who you voted for. It is all done in private and the ballot has no identification of who cast it.
So a Representative asking the question, "who are my Constituents?" is fully unable to lay finger on a single individual who voted for him. This gives him full authority to make decisions based upon who he "thinks" his constituents are, and how he "thinks" they want him to vote. It quite obvious that many politicians believe they are elected by someone other that "The People", and I tend to think that this may be true. WE are not the constituents as we've been led to believe.
----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" Bugs Bunny
"Scwewy Wabbit!" Elmer Fudd
----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence
"...the Patriot Act was passed just days after 9/11"
And was drafted months prior.
The Patriot Act was repassed
The Patriot Act was repassed in later years.
Good people do Good deeds
and are no respecter of person
When you vote for a
When you vote for a Representative you ARE giving your consent. You are consenting to having YOUR authority delegated TO the representative that WINS. If you participate in this type of system you have no right to complain. You knew in advance that you were delegating YOUR AUTHORITY to someone other than yourself. By voting you have given your CONSENT to Democracy, and you knew in advance that you would be either the Winner or the Loser in this system. You can not chear when you win and cry when you lose. You participated, you have to accept your loses with you victories.
If you don't like it that way then stop participating, stop giving your consent to be governed by Democracy.
----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" Bugs Bunny
"Scwewy Wabbit!" Elmer Fudd
----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence
Throw the bastards out.
At least vote them out. They don't even read the bills. Sorry son of a bitches.
Read George Orwell's Animal Farm. Oldie but goodie. Only 100 pages.
These people pass whatever they want and ignore the Constitution
That is a large part of what Dr. Paul is fighting.
A return to a limited Constitutional government is unlikely, so they will pass just about anything they really want.
"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence." Thomas H. Huxley
Without consent of the people -- yes.
In contravention of the Constitution -- no.
Ron Paul Explorer: The All Paul Search Engine