The myth of death panels?
This article traces the source of the "myth of death panels" in the Obama plan...argument that "almost derailed" the Obama plan.
The problem is that it admits the existence of death panels and illustrates their necessity in the text of the article:
"The debate has underscored how fraught the discussion is on end-of-life care in a country where an optimistic ethos places great faith in technology and often precludes frank contemplations of mortality. That tendency has a price tag: A quarter of Medicare costs -- totaling $100 billion a year -- are incurred in the final year of patients' lives, and 40 percent of that in the last month."
Am I wrong, does this not explain why death panels would be prudent and necessary in a socialistic system?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09...





















LOL
You are right. But I think it's funny how they can lie about not saying it - even while they say it.
"We come in peace..."
"...shoot to kill."
It's simple.
They lie.
Obama Advisor Recommends "Complete Lives System" (Death Panels)
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, health adviser to President Barack Obama, is under scrutiny. As a bioethicist, he has written extensively about who should get medical care, who should decide, and whose life is worth saving. Dr. Emanuel is part of a school of thought that redefines a physician’s duty, insisting that it includes working for the greater good of society instead of focusing only on a patient’s needs. Many physicians find that view dangerous, and most Americans are likely to agree.
The health bills being pushed through Congress put important decisions in the hands of presidential appointees like Dr. Emanuel. They will decide what insurance plans cover, how much leeway your doctor will have, and what seniors get under Medicare. Dr. Emanuel, brother of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, has already been appointed to two key positions: health-policy adviser at the Office of Management and Budget and a member of the Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research. He clearly will play a role guiding the White House's health initiative.
True reform, he argues, must include redefining doctors' ethical obligations. In the June 18, 2008, issue of JAMA, Dr. Emanuel blames the Hippocratic Oath for the "overuse" of medical care: "Medical school education and post graduate education emphasize thoroughness," he writes. "This culture is further reinforced by a unique understanding of professional obligations, specifically the Hippocratic Oath's admonition to 'use my power to help the sick to the best of my ability and judgment' as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of cost or effect on others."
In numerous writings, Dr. Emanuel chastises physicians for thinking only about their own patient's needs. He describes it as an intractable problem: "Patients were to receive whatever services they needed, regardless of its cost. Reasoning based on cost has been strenuously resisted; it violated the Hippocratic Oath, was associated with rationing, and derided as putting a price on life. . . . Indeed, many physicians were willing to lie to get patients what they needed from insurance companies that were trying to hold down costs." (JAMA, May 16, 2007).
Of course, patients hope their doctors will have that single-minded devotion. But Dr. Emanuel believes doctors should serve two masters, the patient and society, and that medical students should be trained "to provide socially sustainable, cost-effective care." One sign of progress he sees: "the progression in end-of-life care mentality from 'do everything' to more palliative care shows that change in physician norms and practices is possible." (JAMA, June 18, 2008).
"However, other things are rarely equal—whether to save one 20-year-old, who might live another 60 years, if saved, or three 70-year-olds, who could only live for another 10 years each—is unclear." In fact, Dr. Emanuel makes a clear choice: "When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.
See: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020370660457437...
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Ron Paul Supporter Since 1997
`Wise people, even though all laws were abolished, would still lead the same life'- Aristophanes -
“We have allowed our nation to be over taxed and over regulated and overrun by bureaucrats, the founders would be ashamed of us for what we're putting up with.” Ron Paul
Only A Commie Could Be Confused By This:
"However, other things are rarely equal—whether to save one 20-year-old, who might live another 60 years, if saved, or three 70-year-olds, who could only live for another 10 years each—is unclear."
There is nothing unclear here at all. The three seventy year olds who paid into the system all their lives damn well better receive the care they were promised. What the hell is the point of a "health care system" that takes money from you all your life and then cuts you off just when you need help?
That's Commie compassion for you. Sounds about as reasonable as our previous overlord's love of bombing people into freedom.
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"Priority curve"
That doesn't sound good.
No, It Doesn't
Wonder where the "little guy" will end up on the "priority curve?"
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good info
good info
The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PoL.English.The.Philo...
The one assertion that I know to be correct, from actually
having seen so many bills for Medicare patients, is that you can generally look at the total (for say 30 days of hospital stay) of the bill and tell that's it's for a patient who is at, or very near, death's door. (Some exceptions exist.) I usually just glanced at the total and then took a look at the date of birth, as well as the revenue codes for the services being billed. Those tended to be some pretty hefty 6-figure bills. To answer the poster's question, "no" you're not wrong. It is a potentially powerful economic inducement to, at some point in time (determined by whomever in government that is making the rules), throw the switch in order to stem the growth of expenses. In general, the last six months of a Medicare patient's life are a period of vast growth in medical costs, billed to Medicare. Not always the case, but many times it is.
_________________________________________
"An economy built on fiat money is a society on its way to ashes."
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"An economy built on fiat money is a society on its way to ashes."
yup those commies never cease to amaze me.
On the one hand they decry the term "death panels" yet the provision is claimed as necessary to "save money." How else will the government save money unless it is counseling people to die rather than seek treatment? That is the whole purpose of this "counseling." I can't fathom how people are so disconnected in their brains that they can say both things and not realize what they are saying contradicts.
DoubleThink...
“The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies — all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.”
The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PoL.English.The.Philo...
Double Speak
Sorry off topic question to Wolfe:
Doubt think like accepting the fact that Obama chief science advisor suggested that we engage in a massive operation to counteract global warming by spray reflective particles in the air from jet airplanes and also denying the possibility that jet airplanes may be spraying particles according to eye witnesses?
Dude...
Keep it in the thread where it belongs. And there is nothing duplicitous or inconsistent about my assertion that you are full of crap about chemtrails.
They have also suggested that we consider sequestering CO2 in underground caverns, is your assertion that they have already started this secretly behind our backs in a grand conspiracy to control all of the CO2 of the world?
You're silly. And keep it on topic here.
The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PoL.English.The.Philo...
Thanks for the quote BTW
That is really good....and accurate.
This has been going on for a
This has been going on for a long time in this country. Not just with the elderly.
http://www.lifenews.com/bio2099.html
Are death panels necessary under Medicare?
Is Medicare a socialist system?
CHA-CHING!
CHA-CHING!
Yes to both questions.
Ask anyone who has been denied medical care under medicare as being not cost effective. Limited resources require these decisions to be made. The ones in control of the resources, make the decisions. If you give your resources to the government for administration and control, you give them that power instead of making the decision yourself.
And last, Medicare/Medicaid are bankrupt, even though they do indeed limit access to care. (I have known several people who were denied care, and/or given inappropriate care, because the appropriate care wasn't covered while the inappropriate care was).
The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PoL.English.The.Philo...
Well-
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=13042...
"The satisfaction levels with access to medical care and overall quality of health care were both rated 3.9. At the same time, 93.2% and 93.5% of the respondents rated these items good to excellent, respectively."
By comparison:
http://industry.bnet.com/healthcare/10001111/california-insu...
"six of the state’s largest insurers rejected 45.7 million claims, or 22 percent of the total"
CHA-CHING!
CHA-CHING!
I assume...
You have point somewhere in there? If you do, I can't find it.
Did anything you say change the fact that it is bankrupt? No.
So only 7% of those on Medicare were denied access or otherwise treated in a way that would indicate they were cattle and not human. Oh, but wait, if anyone actually takes the time to read the study, it clearly describes the chosen mechanism causes a self selection bias in the sample. SELF SELECTED STUDIES ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC. In case you missed that, I can repeat it.
And you will NOT catch me defending insurance companies. That isn't the question that was asked.
The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PoL.English.The.Philo...
"I can't find it."
"So only 7% of those on Medicare were denied access"
You found it. Somehow I knew I wouldn't have to spell it out for someone clearly as sharp as yourself.
And yes it is bankrupt! It's almost like we need health care reform!
Dum de dum...
"SELF SELECTED STUDIES ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC."
Self selection goes both ways, btw. Who is more likely to reply to a survey? Someone with all their needs met or someone with a story to tell?
And I hear raising your voice is the next best thing to being right...
Moving along...
"And you will NOT catch me defending insurance companies."
So what is your solution? Cash?
CHA-CHING!
CHA-CHING!
lol...
Socialized medicine is bankrupt, therefore we need more socialized medicine...?
7% of people fell short on the death panels... Wow, not a bad number (translates to what 20 million or so American's who would be denied healthcare based on the fact that our government won't believe they need it). But as I said, since you are apparently a little retarded "SELF SELECTED STUDIES ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC.", and satisfied customers are far more likely to respond, because unsatisfied ones know that they won't get heard anyway so they crumple the crap up in the trash and throw it away.
Who is right on that? Me or you? Who knows, that is why "SELF SELECTED STUDIES ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC."
And to be clear 100% had their money taken from this to fund the program so if the coverage rate, and satisfaction rate is anything less than 100%, it is wrong, theft and socially unjustifiable.
Does it matter if only hurts the one guy who paid in his whole life and is denied a wheel chair because of some mystical criteria defined by the government (medicare true story of a friend of mine). Stealing from one, for the good of another is wrong.
The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PoL.English.The.Philo...
In the course of your post you called me retarded.
And a dumbass.
And quoted yourself.
Twice.
You claimed that unsatisfied surveyees were less likely to respond. Judging from the amount of virtual spittle being spewed forth from your post I would generally claim the opposite... but...
It turns out you were right!
"22 percent of the privately insured people found that their plan did not pay for care that they thought was covered, compared to 9 percent of elderly Medicare beneficiaries."
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/News/News-Releases/2...
Time to break out the P-word I guess?
CHA-CHING!
CHA-CHING!
I was not quoting myself...
I was stating a fact. SELF SELECTING STUDIES ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC. That is not yelling, that is making sure you can't ignore the statement.
Umm, you are just a tad retarded, and that is me being kind.
To keep it short...
Anything less than 100% satisfaction from those whose money was taken is theft at gunpoint. You are advocating thievery.
I know 20 million americans suffering doesn't mean much to you. Nor does the bankruptcy of the systems themselves...
The difference with insurance companies is that they don't demand your money at gunpoint, you choose to give it to them. And I don't defend the insurance companies. Stop throwing up that strawman.
The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PoL.English.The.Philo...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark
FYI.
You didn't really read my post, did you? I agreed with you! And I even gave you another non-self-selected survey to prove that all your arrogance was actually justified. Instead of 8% of customers unsatisfied there were 9% of customers unsatisfied. Are you just going to call me a retard again now?
Moving on to the ideological arguement now springing up...
You have claimed that all public medical options are "thievery" (see, quote marks? It's a quote, you get it?) unless they provide 100% satisfaction. You then tried to hit me with some ill-thought out comment on how I don't care about "20 million americans suffering". Coupled with this little gem-
"The difference with insurance companies is that they don't demand your money at gunpoint, you choose to give it to them. And I don't defend the insurance companies. " (an interesting couple of statements where you defend the insurance companies while claiming you don't defend the insurance companies. While also claiming that I am using them as a strawman. When I didn't even mention you defending them at all in my last post.)
- you provide a complete picture of exactly what you want. And it's unrealistic.
1. 100% satisfaction is impossible.
2. I care about every one- http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml: "nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007". That leaves 209 million people under the age of 65 insured. Now if one in five of those are denied and "unsatisfied" that gives us 41.8 million. Add in the 46 million who are not insured and we come to a grand total of 87.8 million people. Let's make it easier and disregard the people insured but denied claims (it's an inaccurate system of measurement anyway).
The percentage of people who are uninsured is double the percentage of people unsatisfied with medicare. And you claim that I don't care.
You have presented no solution for the medical crisis facing this country. I have proven that socialized (Oh snap! I said it! Ideology alarm going off!) medicine can and is being run by the government in a superior fashion to private health care. What is your answer to the health care problem facing this country?
CHA-CHING!
CHA-CHING!
I read your post...
I also read your tone, loud and clear. While you admitted I was correct, you followed up with a "but see everything else is worse" attitude.
There is no medical crisis other than the one created by the legalized monopoly that insurance companies have placed on us. The problem is government intervention in the markets, and therefore cannot be resolved with more government intervention.
Solution? Pay for the healthcare that you need, like I do. Simple enough? You aren't allowed to take my money, fund your crazy schemes, and then deny me care. This is still a free country, right? Maybe not.
I am one of those "uninsured" and am perfectly satisfied with my healthcare. Insurance does not equal health care.
The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PoL.English.The.Philo...
Do you admit that medicare is superior to private
insurance?
CHA-CHING!
CHA-CHING!
lmao...
No, of course not for the following reasons which you can not deny.
1) I pay for medicare even though I do not, nor would I ever want coverage by medicare. Insurance, I can choose NOT to pay.
2) Medicare, claimants who paid, fairly, with legitimate conditions are denied care and have no recourse to either sue, or demand to stop paying.
Insurance companies, you can sue and/or stop paying.
3) Medicare does not allow the patient to decide their own care. Insurance does not allow you to decide your own care. It's a wash.
4) Insurance is NOT health care. It is prepaid service, and is heavily government subsidized which drives up cost. Medicare is 100% subsidized which forces costs so high, that the system becomes unsustainable and bankrupt.
5) The insurance "death panel" is regulated as to when it can and cannot deny coverage. Medicare is managed only by policy which is determined by beaurocrats. As an example see the fairly recent change to SCHIPS(sp) which out of the blue started denying certain families coverage that were previously covered.
Right now, I am not forced to pay for insurance PLUS my own healthcare because of my refusal to use insurance based healthcare. Under socialized medicine, I would be forced to pay for both.
The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PoL.English.The.Philo...
Why is satisfaction with medicare higher than with
private insurance?
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Irrelevant.
Insurance is voluntary. You can choose to not participate if you are not satisfied.
Medicare is compulsory, so if you are not satisfied and refuse to participate, you go to jail.
Medicare is theft, insurance is just foolishness.
The real question is why you seem to unable to comprehend the facts and discuss them. Hence, the reason I called you retarded. You seem to be just a little slow to have this conversation at the grown up table.
The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PoL.English.The.Philo...