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Gosh, the statists are so much fun to play with

I find it rather sad when somone who claims to be seeking liberty resorts to the thing that all statists must, the threat of violence. So for those of you just tuning in...it's something like this.

So, how does the favorite argument of the statists go again? Oh yeah...

Because without government some people would make their own rules and use violence on other people to take what they want, from whom they want, when they want, to use on what they want, 'WE' have decided that we are going to have this special group of people (the Govt!!!) who will be responsible for making sure that those people who would do such terrible things don't. They're going to do this by making their own rules and using violence to take what they want, from whom they want, when they want, to use on what they want.

Doesn't make much sense, does it?

And yes Devon_Sanders, you fall into the category of statist. I'll upgrade you in my opinion when you realize that cheering the day (or night) when the Gestapo comes to whisk me away is a mistake.




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Well, we can talk all day

but talk is cheap. In my sheep days I watched "Survivor" and the first to go were the capable people. So if that is any indication as how things will go down I don't think any of us stand a chance. Just my two cents.

Prepare & Share the Message of Freedom through Positive-Peaceful-Activism.

Anarchy is alive and well

in the inner cities. Cops don't go there the people are free, except for the gangs that own the streets. I guess you could say anarchy is about no government to boss you around let the street gangs boss you around. Just my observation.

Prepare & Share the Message of Freedom through Positive-Peaceful-Activism.

You been around here a good

You been around here a good long while. If you have followed the several anarchism vs minarchism threads at all you would know full well your "observation" is is a complete mischaracterization of anarchism as endorsed by the free market anarchists/voluntaryists who have patiently explained that anarchy does not equal chaos or absence of law. In effect, it simply means government no longer has a legal monopoly on the use of force. Rather, just as the free market provides all other goods and services better than government, so too, it can provide police, courts and defence better and without the coercion of government. Many sources have been cited explaining possible ways this could occur; The Mises Institute has an abundance of information. Freedomainradio.com has free downloadable books explaining that all the usual fears about free market protective services are unwarranted. Even go back to Murray Rothbard's "For a New Liberty" for an introduction to these views. A free people will come up with methods to solve all their needs without coercion (the initiatory use of force) - which does not preclude defensive use of force by individuals or protective agencies acting pursuant to law.

marlow

marlow

That is not anarchy that is

That is not anarchy that is oligarchy. No different then what we have for the whole country just a different gang running the show. Freedom is not the absence of cops. Freedom is the respect for others rights and defence against just such rule by some gang.

That is what the PTB would like you to believe is anarchy.

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Huh?

Yeah, sure Statist...that's the way I'd describe Devon....(eyes roll)...sheesh.

"...there is no doubt that it (socialism) could not possibly have affected us so widely and so deeply as it has, had it not been heavily financed". - B. Carroll Reece

"...there is no doubt that it (socialism) could not possibly have affected us so widely and so deeply as it has, had it not been heavily financed". - B. Carroll Reece

Yes He IS a Statist.

He said in another thread he believed in using force against None to fit his state run agendas.

He thinks the use of force is alright as long as it's for the greater good. How can there be any good if it comes from robbing and stealing at gun point? People work they're whole lives and never own a d@mn thing, that couldn't ( or isn't already ) stolen from them! Allowed by a centralized group of around 600 men. These men are direct party to the bloodline, or henchmen who have sold out. And people are ignorant enough to believe this wouldn't happen all over again in another two hundred years or before if this fiasco stands! The bloodline will find a way to always be in control people. Take the control AWAY from these parasites whom have been enslaving people for thousands of years. When they have no system to feed off of, or a platform to decieve us by, we might regain our freedoms. Self governance is the only answer.

In order to reach freedom, we must never stop shining the light of truth on cohersion and force. The people must see it for what it is. Then we will be free. You are looking at over 150 years of indoctrination taught at the hands of the parasites. They want you to accept force. They want you to justify it. Because they benefit from it.

It sickens me to the core to hear people justify theft. This is WHY we are not free! Anyone who justifies theft, is SICK and is nothing more than a willing slave in my book. You might as well hang a marxist sign around your neck.

Sorry, I can't quite make out your post.

Your assault on Devon and your smugness are muddying it up. :(

My statist comment stands

Devon stated in another thread that he'd be happy to see the day that the new US govt. gestapo came to take me away for my opinion of the political process.

Are you in agreement? Do you support the government silencing those who speak freely?

Too bad you didn't keep your gripe with him in the other thread

It was in poor taste for you to target him in your OP here.

I suspect you asked me your questions out of defensiveness and not because you are really interested in what I think, so I'm going to pass on answering them.

While we differ on some things, I find Devon's posts intellectually stimulating. They make me think.

Glean where you can, even from your perceived enemy.

When someone advocates using force against you Jiminy

We will see how you feel about it.

There was already a thread, according to none...

...where they were having their disagreement.

None could've continued the gripe there, rather than targeting a poster in the OP in this new thread to pick a fight.

And I decided to make the threat known to all

So you're upset with me for spreading the information that I was threatened? Why aren't you upset with the person making the threats?

Because I read the exchange. Devon did not threaten you.

For anyone else who wishes to read the whole exchange, here is the link: http://www.dailypaul.com/node/106437#comment-1162481

He said, "...reading the new MIAC report, I'm happy to say that Anarchists are going to be the new first-targets for homeland security, so they'll be off the forums soon enough. Personally, I can't wait."

Perhaps what he said was not nice, but neither is your smug, condescending, title and this thread posted for no other reason than to pick a fight with him.

None, Devon may have expressed his annoyance with you, and some others, in a darkly facetious way, but he did not threaten you and you do not help yourself with such exaggerations.

Thanks for your opinon.

Mine is that when someone goes around making morally bankrupt statements they deserve to be called out.

Iron age Ireland no thanks.

You hold out one example of a post iron age, sparsely populated region of Ireland as evidence? Of what? Anarchy as you envision it only exists in that thick egg shell head of yours.
It is in our nature to band together to protect ourselves and our property against other bands of humans. This necessarily means contracts or agreements are made - the fundamentals of law.
Your anarchy quickly devolves into tribalism, feudalism, tyranny - Who has the bigger more powerful clan that can assert their rights over others.

"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that." — Alan Greenspan

Another uninformed clueless

Another uninformed clueless comment... Sigh! Study the history.

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"Sigh! Study the history."

"Sigh! Study the history."

Oh really? Why don't you study your navel, idiot. That all you delusional anarchist are good for. You aren't living in reality, but I'm sure you've been informed of that quite often enough.

Best you could come up with I guess. Funny you have no real world examples to draw from for your theories. If your ideas worked, wouldn't we see a lot of it around? I mean, Mankind has been around a pretty long time.

"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that." — Alan Greenspan

And another one who can't

And another one who can't address the real issue so resorts to name calling and avoidance BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOTHING!. Read the thread I have proven my position several times unlike you and all the others who do nothing but emotionally attack the messenger.

What pray tell do you think gives any of you little hitlers the right to force your gangs of thugs you call government in any one of us? it will be a cold day in hell before any of you little bastards can answer that. At least Bmore came right out and said he believes stealing is justified unlike the rest of you cowards, so we know what we're dealing with in him.

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End The Fat
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Governments do not operate

Governments do not operate by contracts or agreements. They operate through violence and force. They operate over asserting their rights over others all the time- and quickly devolve into tribalism, feudalism, and tyranny. saying that we need violence to protect ourseves from the same type of violence makes no sense at all. It is governments that are responsible for the most heinous crimes in all of humanity's existence here.

Prove it.

You said: "Governments do not operate by contracts or agreements. They operate through violence and force."

Governments have a contract with the people that form it. Our contract is called The Constitution.

You said: "saying that we need violence to protect ourselves from the same type of violence makes no sense at all."

How else should I protect myself against the violent? Or do you plan on denying their existence in your Utopian delusion.

You said: "It is governments that are responsible for the most heinous crimes in all of humanity's existence here."

I argue that it is irrelevant to the point - that it is human nature at play and evil will have its way regardless.

"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that." — Alan Greenspan

You prove it! Provide the

You prove it! Provide the contract with mine or even your wet ink signature binding us to said contract?

Wherein did any of us agree to and sign any such contract? You need to look up the definition of a contract. Wherein did anyone past or present get the right to sign a contract for me? Ther is no contract its a fraud a construct of deception!

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He can't prove it.

It's historical FACT that no regular colonist signed it nor voted on it! Just a bunch of "representatives" showed up and gave it to an already prospering settlement. They managed to list taxation first thing in the document.

Anarchism isa thought experiment

and a failed one at that.

You have that backwards

Political systems of all kinds are failed thought experiments. It's logically flawed to believe that any special group of people can ensure liberty and freedom for all by enslaving everyone.

There has only been one

There has only been one minarchist experiment. How is that comparable to the thousands of states, some of which evolved from stateless man? Can you really say that you have the better empirical backing?

You would do better to attack individual services provided by government. I find those to be actionable and fascinating.

Ventura 2012

hawkiye:"Fact: Government is

hawkiye:"Fact: Government is a monopoly of force. "

BmoreBrawler: Incorrect. Anyone can use force. The government just justifies its own use of force by its laws, the same way you might commit assault yet justify it for whatever reason.

A majority of society has chosen to allow for collective force by a single body called government by giving it color of law. Using force against anyone is violating thier rights except when used for self defence. However government is presumed to have authority to do so without repercussion when it does not. Men have no right to violate others rights therefore the fact they do it collectively through some created entity called government does not make it any less a violation of rights. Hence government is a monopoly on force given color of law by mob rules.

hawkiye:"Fact: Man has proven for millenia he cannot be trusted with governmental powers nor can he be trusted to control his created government."

BmoreBrawler: As far as man not being trusted with government powers, its a point I will give to you. Man is fundamentally corruptible.

We've only had one government which had a scope to be "controlled", called the USA. One example doesn't = fact.

So this one example is fiction? There have been many so called republics through out history that had collective democracy. Rome is perhaps most notable and they prove the point rather well. Our country in fact has followed in Romes footsteps quit literally.

hawkiye:"Fact: History has proven man can live in peace and freedom in a sophisticated society without all the trappings of so called government."

BmoreBrawler:One example in a primitive society. The preponderance of the evidence "proves" that such a society is so unlikely that to strive towards it seems statistically insane.

There are other examples, Iceland is another. The preponderance of evidence proves this is a viable form of society since it lasted 1000 years and few societies have endured that long. I would love to see the preponderance of evidence you think proves otherwise.

hawkiye:"Fact: Ancient Irish Anarchic society lasted 1000 years in maximum freedom without the trappings we know as government and were known as the most sophisticated society in Europe during that time."

BmoreBrawler: #1 why did they get conquered? #2 There were MORE sophisticated societies elsewhere. Why?

They got conquered for the same reasons any nation gets conquered. What has that got to do with the fact they lived in relative peace and freedom for 1000 years? We were conquered in less then 20 years and didn't even know it. Using your logic we should dump the constitution and government post haste. What other societies where more sophisticated at that time? For sake of argument assuming there was one how does that negate the fact they proved men can live in peace and freedom without government?

hawkiye:"Fact: Forced taxation is theft."

BmoreBrawler: Yes, but it doesn't imply that it is not necessary or ultimately objectively better.

So you feel stealing is justified when deemed necassary and even objectively better? Better then what? Better then not stealing and not violating others rights? I bet thieves everywhere believe the same thing! I would love to hear what exactly justifies stealing in any capacity much less what government is given justification for.
-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

"A majority of society has

"A majority of society has chosen to allow for collective force by a single body called government by giving it color of law. Using force against anyone is violating thier rights except when used for self defence. However government is presumed to have authority to do so without repercussion when it does not. Men have no right to violate others rights therefore the fact they do it collectively through some created entity called government does not make it any less a violation of rights. Hence government is a monopoly on force given color of law by mob rules."

Our answers are not incompatible.

"So this one example is fiction? There have been many so called republics through out history that had collective democracy. Rome is perhaps most notable and they prove the point rather well. Our country in fact has followed in Romes footsteps quit literally."

It wasn't the lawyers that usurped Rome. Rome didn't have anywhere near the enumeration of the role of government that we have. On the contrary, most of it was based on tradition and understanding of "how things always worked". That doesn't mean that there aren't parallels. The most striking one is that the more powerful the military became, the more unacceptable popular rule became to the most evil families in Rome. If we keep the government small, ruling it becomes less attractive.

"They got conquered for the same reasons any nation gets conquered. What has that got to do with the fact they lived in relative peace and freedom for 1000 years? We were conquered in less then 20 years and didn't even know it. Using your logic we should dump the constitution and government post haste. What other societies where more sophisticated at that time? For sake of argument assuming there was one how does that negate the fact they proved men can live in peace and freedom without government?"

Do you think that being on a remote island had anything to do with it? We were most certainly not conquered from outside enemies. Well gee, Byzantines, Arabs, Chinese, Persians etc etc. The pattern is militarily strong states. As soon as the west got their act together, and the "market for states" played out through warfare, nation states began to allow for stability and an explostion in wealth and innovation.

"So you feel stealing is justified when deemed necassary and even objectively better? Better then what? Better then not stealing and not violating others rights? I bet thieves everywhere believe the same thing! I would love to hear what exactly justifies stealing in any capacity much less what government is given justification for."

Yes, I do. Better than having the fascists/socialists do it first. I'm sure that some thieves justify stealing on grounds of self-preservation, yes. Not most, though. What justifies stealing is self preservation. Ultimately, I believe that we will have MORE liberties by using a Republic to instill objective human rights and act as a protector of individuals/outlet for minority control than we would being conquered by fascist kings or socialist revolutionaries, as I believe would be almost inevitable. Lovers of liberty are ALWAYS in the minority, because liberty is too complicated for most people to fully grasp(IMO).

Your friend Stephen Molyneux said that you should just run if the person you are debating with supports violence. I suggest you do that now.

Anyway, these posts have been completely disjointed if you haven't noticed. Most of these points at issue are broadly related but don't make for a logically constructive debate. We'll meet again.

Ventura 2012

hawkiye: "A majority of

hawkiye: "A majority of society has chosen to allow for collective force by a single body called government by giving it color of law. Using force against anyone is violating thier rights except when used for self defence. However government is presumed to have authority to do so without repercussion when it does not. Men have no right to violate others rights therefore the fact they do it collectively through some created entity called government does not make it any less a violation of rights. Hence government is a monopoly on force given color of law by mob rules."

Bmore: Our answers are not incompatible.

Yes they are. When a special group of people are believed by a majority to be the only ones who can use violence to violate people rights on behalf of that majority they have a monopoly on violence and force!

hawkiye: "So this one example is fiction? There have been many so called republics through out history that had collective democracy. Rome is perhaps most notable and they prove the point rather well. Our country in fact has followed in Romes footsteps quit literally."

Bmore: It wasn't the lawyers that usurped Rome. Rome didn't have anywhere near the enumeration of the role of government that we have. On the contrary, most of it was based on tradition and understanding of "how things always worked". That doesn't mean that there aren't parallels. The most striking one is that the more powerful the military became, the more unacceptable popular rule became to the most evil families in Rome. If we keep the government small, ruling it becomes less attractive.

You are incorrect you need to study history the parallels are far more extensive then you are suggesting. It was the lawyers and the rulers and the debasing of their currency that they fell. History and us have proven it is impossible to keep government small for it is a magnet to tyrants and psychopaths!

hawkiye: "They got conquered for the same reasons any nation gets conquered. What has that got to do with the fact they lived in relative peace and freedom for 1000 years? We were conquered in less then 20 years and didn't even know it. Using your logic we should dump the constitution and government post haste. What other societies where more sophisticated at that time? For sake of argument assuming there was one how does that negate the fact they proved men can live in peace and freedom without government?"

Bmore: Do you think that being on a remote island had anything to do with it? We were most certainly not conquered from outside enemies.

Indeed we are conquered by outside enemies in the international banking cartels, IMF is the agent of the British empire. The Federal Reserve is also a foreign agent under the IMF and international banksters.

hawkiye: "So you feel stealing is justified when deemed necessary and even objectively better? Better then what? Better then not stealing and not violating others rights? I bet thieves everywhere believe the same thing! I would love to hear what exactly justifies stealing in any capacity much less what government is given justification for."

Bmore: Yes, I do. Better than having the fascists/socialists do it first.

Wow that is an amazing statement. So you justify stealing because you want to do it before other thieves do it... Wow just wow... Sigh!

Bmore: I'm sure that some thieves justify stealing on grounds of self-preservation, yes. Not most, though.

Wow your on a roll another amazing statement. The biggest thief of all known as government steals exactly for the reasons of self preservation period!

Bmore: What justifies stealing is self preservation.

Un-effing believeable!!! NOTHING JUSTIFES STEALING! NOTHING! DO YOU HEAR ME? NOTHING! There it is folks in black and white, these people are not freedom lovers they can justify stealing from you at threat of violence and call themselves liberty lovers.

Bmore: Ultimately, I believe that we will have MORE liberties by using a Republic to instill objective human rights and act as a protector of individuals/outlet for minority control than we would being conquered by fascist kings or socialist revolutionaries, as I believe would be almost inevitable.

What would lead you to believe that? Our republic has already been conquered by fascist and socialist. It never ceases to amaze me how you folks can completely ignore the irrefutable evidence smacking you right in the face. Your premise is a fantasy it is already proven to have failed to do what you advocate it does.

Bmore: Lovers of liberty are ALWAYS in the minority, because liberty is too complicated for most people to fully grasp(IMO).

Ah we finally agree on something. However you won't like this but you my friend are a great example of this. You believe you are a lover of liberty yet you advocate democracy/mob rules and justify stealing the fruits of my labor and others “out of necessity” by force of violence. Sorry my friend but you are no lover of liberty, you do not have the first clue about freedom with statements l such as you have made!

Bmore: Your friend Stephen Molyneux said that you should just run if the person you are debating with supports violence. I suggest you do that now.

Why would I do that? I will defend what is mine. If you come to steal from me I will meet out justice to you swiftly!

Bmore: Anyway, these posts have been completely disjointed if you haven't noticed. Most of these points at issue are broadly related but don't make for a logically constructive debate. We'll meet again.

No I haven't noticed I have copied all the comments and answer just so they do not get out of context. Nice try though. ;-)

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End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

"You are incorrect you need

"You are incorrect you need to study history the parallels are far more extensive then you are suggesting. It was the lawyers and the rulers and the debasing of their currency that they fell. History and us have proven it is impossible to keep government small for it is a magnet to tyrants and psychopaths!"

You are mixing up why the empire fell with why the republic fell. There is no parralel with the Constitutional Republic and the Roman Empire. There is, however, a parralel with the Constitutional Republic and the Roman Republic, but it is not that good.

"Un-effing believeable!!! NOTHING JUSTIFES STEALING! NOTHING! DO YOU HEAR ME? NOTHING! There it is folks in black and white, these people are not freedom lovers they can justify stealing from you at threat of violence and call themselves liberty lovers."

Ron Paul, Mises, Rand, Jefferson, Madison, etc were not freedom lovers....O KAY. Everything is not black and white. Grow up.

Interesting that the minarchists have actually accomplished something in furthering liberty while you inane pseudo-intellectuals have accomplished nothing and never will.

"What would lead you to believe that? Our republic has already been conquered by fascist and socialist. It never ceases to amaze me how you folks can completely ignore the irrefutable evidence smacking you right in the face. Your premise is a fantasy it is already proven to have failed to do what you advocate it does."

It took 100 years and we've learned from our mistakes. You would never make it in the sciences(including social sciences), where you cant extrapolate all sorts of nonsense from ONE example. I, on the other hand, can point to the ORIGINAL human societies, which evolved from no state nor concept of one, into states and fiefdoms.

" Bmore: Lovers of liberty are ALWAYS in the minority, because liberty is too complicated for most people to fully grasp(IMO).

Ah we finally agree on something. However you won't like this but you my friend are a great example of this. You believe you are a lover of liberty yet you advocate democracy/mob rules and justify stealing the fruits of my labor and others “out of necessity” by force of violence. Sorry my friend but you are no lover of liberty, you do not have the first clue about freedom with statements l such as you have made!"

All insults aside, If you agree on this point with me then your anarchist dream fails right there.

" Bmore: Anyway, these posts have been completely disjointed if you haven't noticed. Most of these points at issue are broadly related but don't make for a logically constructive debate. We'll meet again.

No I haven't noticed I have copied all the comments and answer just so they do not get out of context. Nice try though. ;-)"

you're a real bitch, you know that? My point is that we are addressing individual points rather than singular philosophical issues that are more rationally connected at a base.

Ventura 2012

Bmore: you're a real bitch,

Bmore: you're a real bitch, you know that? My point is that we are addressing individual points rather than singular philosophical issues that are more rationally connected at a base.

As expected you have nothing of substance and avoid the issues then in frustration having nothing you name call at the end... Sigh You have put nothing together rational but instead strung together a string of irrational thoughts advocating stealing by force of violence and try to call it freedom.

I have not insulted you just pointed out the inconsistency of your responses. Anyone who says stealing is justified is no lover of liberty! I;ll stand by that no matter who says it. And you call me a real bitch so since that is the only thing you seem understand I'll call you a little bitch in return who is a wannabe tough guy. I can assure I am quite capable of handling any threat that comes my way so trying to assert your wannabe tough guy self image to avoid meaningful discussion will do you no good with me

You need study the history of Rome because you are dead wrong there.

Agreeing that few are ready for true liberty does not negate my argument, which is why I pointed out that you are one who is not ready for liberty yourself but think you are. you think liberty is what you decide it is and that you have the right to steal from me. Anyone who believe that BS is most assuredly not ready for liberty but in a true free society would be in exile or dead!

If we have learned form our mistakes then why are we on the edge of disaster this very moment? You do not seem capable of reason and logic your responses come from an irrational emotional attachment to a failed ideal!

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!