sigh - ok here goes...
I have a tendency to step back and look at things objectively, weigh the evidence and then make a decision on where I stand on an issue. Let me first say that I'm am an avid supporter of Congressman Ron Paul and have been since the first televised Republican debate when I discovered who he was. I liked Dr. Paul because he was honest and he represented my views more than any politician I've ever come across. I'm inspired by this movement and very excited, almost obsessive over the daily news about Ron Paul, his supporters or the issues this country goes through. This is going to be about the Healthcare debate, but let me first make a few points:
A. I read the DailyPaul every day. However, as someone who is constantly talking to people about politics and issues and recommending Dr. Paul or his movement as an option to support, I sometimes wince at the topics that are covered on this site. I realize that Dr. Paul has support from people of all walks of life for a million different reasons. But all this birth certificate stuff, chemtrails, 9/11 truth movement stuff has to stop. The media portrays us as kooks and crazies because of this kind of talk. They label us and then dismiss us with a chuckle. This leads to the mainstream voters dismissing us as well without even hearing what we have to say. And anyone who does take the time to read this site is immediately going to be put off over issues like these being discussed. I understand that a forum like this should exemplify "Free Speech", but keep your eyes on the prize, guys. Let's get to where we need to be and THEN start all of our investigations. P.S. I Do doubt the President's eligibility, as I doubted John McCain's. I also think our government was aware of 9/11 and may have taken steps to insure the destruction was as bad as it was to fuel the thirst for blood. So you can't just say I want you to shut up because I don't believe in it.
B. I am a die hard Ron Paul supporter. His name comes up in every discussion about politics or issues that I have with anyone. I agree with him on about 95% of the issues and am very anxious to become involved with a local group doing what I can to help. i recently moved back home to Houston, TX and have asked about groups on this site before. No answer was given. This is something that needs to be at the forefront of conversation on here. Town halls, voting records, elections, fundraisers, appearances, etc. Instead, there are posts about sheep with ESP reading my thoughts and setting up laser turrets in my backyard.
Okay, back to the main topic: Healthcare
As I said, I look at things objectively. I don't subscribe to rhetoric or rumors so all this Sarah Palin death panel stuff, healthcare for illegal immigrants and kicking people up that are on Medicare and telling them too back, we have to save money and putting them in gas chambers is just nonsense. I'm ashamed of any RP supporter who even gives crap like this a second thought. I say all the time: RP supporters are the intelligent people who do research and know the issues... the morons who do what they're told and jump on bandwagons support the other guys. That's why we lost, because most of the country doesn't care and isn't informed. "If Americans were smarter, wouldn't you be leading in the polls?"
I'm leaving all the BS out and just looking at the issue.
Ideologically, would it be nice if anyone that was sick could go to the doctor and get treated? Yes. Dr. Paul treats people at his office who are unable to pay all the time. More docs need to be like this. Private charities like Shriner's do it. These need to be examples for dreams of "Free Healthcare". Let the market work and when everyone is getting free treatment, the places that charge outrageous prices will have to adjust or go away. If the government were to say okay, we're going to close bases around the world and use that $1 Trillion on providing healthcare for everyone and the gov't will foot the bill, I would not oppose it, nor would Dr. Paul, I believe. This bill is being sold as they will vote and everyone will be able to go to the doctor for free. That's not what it is. This bill will FORCE every American citizen to purchase a product from a privately owned company: insurance. Of course, they are going to "work" with the insurers to lower the cost because if they charge 75 million people $300 a month now, how do they lose if 300 million are paying $100 a month?? That's all this is in the long run.
I was upset at Barney Frank saying yesterday on O'Reilly (who I despise) that if need be, the government can get the money being wasted in certain places and they know where it is so they could do that. IF YOU KNOW MONEY IS BEING WASTED, WHY AREN'T YOU STOPPING IT ANYWAY???!! I don't think people are going to be forced to drop they're coverage. They're already buying the product. The Exchange idea is nice, companies competing for customers, but that's how its supposed to be anyway. Some states have only one to very few providers, which is supposed to be illegal, so they can charge what they want. If there was a law passed that said any insurance company can sell wherever they want, that would fix the problem. Corporate influence and corruption is how our system is as screwed up as it is.
I agree with the motives behind this issue, but I do NOT agree with the government forcing its citizens to buy products from privately owned companies. I would not be opposed to the government cutting their spending and opening hospitals themselves to try to help. Even though I don't think they should, this would be an option I could possibly begin to agree with. Also, if you want to know what government run healthcare looks like, visit your local VA Hospital. Are you kidding me? I have yet to be given an answer as to what government run program functions as it is supposed to in an efficient, successful manner? Anyway, that's long enough. You guys leave your thoughts, I'm always up for a debate or whatever. As long as you guys are talking about something pertinent or productive, I'm on board. Let's see how many notes I get from guys in the tin foil hats telling me how wrong I am.
Update: I see many of the responses are already coming after me and that's fine. I'm not denying you the RIGHT to discuss the conspiracy topics. Many of you are quoting me saying that it "needs to stop", but not quoting that I may hold similar views. My point with that statement is that anyone who does take the time to consider Dr. Paul is going to come to this site and see the topics and dismiss it due to these topics. I encounter exact scenarios like this all the time. My best friend, a die hard Dem who thinks Bill Clinton walks on water, told me "I agree with a lot of what your boy says", but when he went to the campaign office during the election, the whole office smelled like marijuana and the two people there could give him NO information about Ron Paul. I suggested going to RonPaulforPresident2008.com or DailyPaul.com or searching on YouTube. (The first website was great, but is no longer running.) He said he went on DailyPaul and there were just too many "conspiracy nuts" on there, so he dismissed RP. He ended up voting for Obama. This is just one example out of 100 that I've gone through. You guys can do this whole "with us or against us" spill, but I'm not saying your right to post should be restrained. I'm just asking you to separate what you COULD do and what you SHOULD do and to keep your eyes on the prize. Once we get to where we need to be, then we can focus on the sub-issues and investigations.
Campaign for LIberty (C4L)
Is the business office, you're at the bar down the street...
You should be referring people to C4L or Mises for policy issues, DP is where we come to relax and blow off steam.
Peace!
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"All the brave soldiers that cannot get older, been askin' after you." -- Crosby, Stills, and Nash
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"Let the good heart speak words of true peace, not inciting others to further war." -- B.I.S.
I own a large collection of tin foil hats
And yes, you're correct about the VA, which has some outstanding facilities, http://www.palo-alto.med.va.gov/ and then there's the Walter Reeds.. I was a military brat, grew up with government healthcare.. I was vaccinated ALLOT. There are 18 million military brats, millions of dependents on VA. One problem we have is that the military is so HUGE, and global, Medicare establishes prices and it seems based on VA.. No insurance company can compete.
When you are in the military, you have an accident and blood tests positive for illegal drugs.. you go to jail. In the private world, you test positive for drugs is your biusiness, unless you are an illegal, which would go into the massive prison industrial complex, which also operates a state/fed budget medical/hospital.
Conspiracy theroy on DP reflects the conspiracy theory on YouTube, which is more MS than MSM for allot of people who find MSM unworthy of respect because they are liars, corporate salesmen.
I really don't care what "people" think about my tin foil hat collection. I am more concerned with what I think about them.. I'm not a birther or a truther BTW, I don't agree with those conspiracies, while I do agree with much of their truths.. Justice is more what I believe is needed. I also don't buy the chemtrail.. to me they are contrail clouds.. but I wouldn't have known any of this if we had not discussed it here, and I think it's good to exercize possibilty and thoughts. I'm free to avoid the thread.
WE ARE GOING TO WIN!
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I don't believe in the "truther" or "birther" theories either
but neither do I believe they are groundless or unimportant. Indeed, if there were federal complicity in 9/11 in order to create a climate of fear that would make the public welcome creation of a police state, then what could be unimportant to our cause about that?
Likewise, if it turns out that Obama was unlawfully ushered into office by a cabal of powerful interests for the express purpose of destroying individual rights guaranteed in our Constitution, that would be most relevant to our campaign.
Just because these ideas are ridiculed by many in the media you want to have nothing to do with them. Why not just keep an open mind and hear what those who research these conspiracy topics are saying? They raise some vexing issues that we would be foolish to ignore.
New Hampshire and Ecuador
Forest Through the Trees
ic3, I'm sorry that the discussion of unpopular topics disturbs you. You are absolutely correct that this is a forum FOR Ron Paul and not for tin foil hatters. However, this is an open forum...and, sadly, these topics are all part of the broader agenda.
If the public wasn't either duped or stupid, why didn't Dr. Paul win the "election" at 97%? Because of the conspiracy perpetrated by all of the entities you mention in your OP!! The corrupt education system; the church; the media, etc. Why is 9/11 such a big part of this and always at the forefront of discussion? Because that was such a major turning-point in the acceleration of our enslavement.
Sorry to disagree with your assessment, but if it weren't for Ron Paul being the first politician that made me give a damn, I would have continued believing the lies and propaganda like the majority seem to.
I do like the second-half of your post on HC!! Nice....
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BC
Silence isn't always golden....sometimes it's yellow.
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BC
Silence isn't always golden....sometimes it's yellow.
"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." - Patrick Henry
"I look at things objectively"
But ...this 9/11 truth movement stuff has to stop.
Those are mutually exclusive statements. If you did look at things objectively, or looked at them at all, rather, you would not have said that.
Besides, this whole post was an exercise in futility.
Sorry, but you lost my interest right after the "sigh"
I have debated far too many liberals that constantly use that in their postings. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
The one I can't stand is "Um."
Signaling the beginning of a cocky lecture.
"Um, you really don't know what you're saying...."
Just simmer down now.
Use your brain filter and don't pay attention to the stuff that bothers you. I used to argue with people, but now, I just want to know there are people out there who can survive when the crap hits the fan. We're all in this together.
hey,
~
small suggestion ... you might get more people, including me, to read your post if you included some paragraph spaces.
right now, I can't handle it.
thanks,
~
much better!
I can´t read anything today :(
DP is all chopped up, and weird....
either to narrow or to wide...
Dunno if my browser, either way it makes my head ache...
/Mike
Front Fell Off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcU4t6zRAKg
/Mike
Front Fell Off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcU4t6zRAKg
is it any better now?
~
do you see anything throwing off the width ... like a wide post ... that can be fixed if corrected?
yes it´s ok now...sweet here I come spamming :)
/Mike
Front Fell Off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcU4t6zRAKg
/Mike
Front Fell Off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcU4t6zRAKg
So if anyone thinks you're wrong, they must have tinfoil hats?
Too bad you chose to use your otherwise good post about healthcare as a platform to label and marginalize others who see the relevance to liberty and freedom of some of the other topics you seek to squelch. :(
Just because everyone does not feel the need to compromise discussions to accommodate the likings of the ~mainstream~ does not make them kooks and crazies.
...and just because you don't see something as pertinent or productive doesn't mean it isn't.
Please do not get suckered into the labeling/marginalizing ploy.
Also...
Regarding the discussion of some of the topics you mentioned, the owner of this site has specifically stated that people are free to discuss them:
"On the Daily Paul, you are free to educate, speculate, and constructively criticize the world you live in, from (yes) chem trails to 911, to the Federal Reserve, the one party system, the corporate controlled media, and even the C4L.
What I try to do with this site is put Ron Paul's principles of freedom liberty, and kindness, understanding and compassion into action. You may not agree with everything everyone says on this site. You may not be into "conspiracy theories," but you don't have to be.
The point is that if we live in a free society, we can peacefully coexist with one another..."
Well said, Jiminy
Just because everyone does not feel the need to compromise discussions to accommodate the likings of the ~mainstream~ does not make them kooks and crazies.
You and I are the only sane people here,
but I'm beginning to have doubts about you.
People love conspiracy theories, just the way they are. I've been convinced forever that the Kennedy Asassination was a conspiracy. The time wasted reading the Warren Commission Report and other books is time gone forever. I'm through with conspiracy theories unless you've really got a good one LOL. From now on I'll wait for others to figure them out'
This is an open forum until the owner changes his mind. Read the good ignore the bad. There are Democrats who are truthers, people who believe AIDS is a conspiracy by the CIA against black folks , that whites in the South secretly want to return to slave days. Go to the SPLC website and read about their conspiracies, conspiracies reported in the MSM.
The crazies and kooks are everywhere, some even end up in Congress and the White House.
Enjoy!
For anyone who you feel
For anyone who you feel topics discussed at the DP may be a bit too much for, you should probably instead refer them to the official websites: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/ , http://www.house.gov/paul/ , http://www.ronpaul.org/ & http://www.ronpaulforcongress.com/
...
You're not wrong at all
The following is my OPINION. So I'm not telling anyone how to think, or what to do:
I think the excessive discussion of the hyper-conspiracists is extremely detrimental, and is possibly done purposely to discredit the liberty movement. Sorry, that's just how I feel. Ironically, what I have just stated sounds somewhat conspiracy minded. But I just wanted to express my support for your post.
I think the Daily Paul would benefit from you contributing more, if you could.
ok, ready to have my ass handed to me on a foil wrapped piece of nano-thermite. :)
"I don't endorse anything they say"
~Ron Paul On the 911 Truth movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGyhlNY0y1k
I'll leave the Health Care discussions to other threads and
posters. I've already spent my energy on it. And maybe if this topic is up in a day or two, I'll address your specific points, if they haven't been covered already.
As to your first two subpoints however...
a) what you are witnessing here is an exploration of truth. Maybe it isn't the version of the truth you are used to, but it is truth nonetheless. People here don't automatically dismiss things as crazy simply because they don't follow a predisposed chain of events or explanation. We prefer that the facts be let to speak for themselves. When we see something that doesn't make sense with the facts we already know, we tend to 1) challenge the scenario itself, 2) challenge the facts we already "know"
The most crucial thing to understand is that we rely on evidence and provable facts. We hold little regard for "secret information" or anything "classified" that we just have to "trust" explains everything most especially if doing so requires us to suspend all rational belief or known laws of physics. (that last one gets us every time. Ask us to suspend the laws of the universe in order to accept your "official" story and you will meet fierce resistance as if you had begged for it)
The issues you mention have certain embarrassing 'facts' for certain people in positions of power. It doesn't help either when those people openly admit they want to achieve a certain goal, tell us how they are going to do it, and why, and then when the events happen, deny they had any hand in it, at the very moment they are taking advantage of it to advance the agenda towards the very same goal they were seeking, and expect us to believe all of that was "just coincidence."
You have to be REALLY naive AND stupid to not see through their ploys IF you were privy to their designs before hand.
(and they don't really hide their 'designs' anymore)
b) check out meetup.com or Campaign for Liberty if you really want to be informed about events in your area, you are going to have to seek them out.
On the flip side of that, the fact that this poster begs for a "announcement" channel for events and that he is not hearing about them, tells me there are obviously some methods that at least in the Houston area, are not being utilized.
I will say this to you sir, how do you hear of other SIMILAR events? Then try looking in those same places for Ron Paul related ones.
The truth may be upleasant, but it is still truth.
Don´t be afraid of labels..They own the media and will label him as they wan´t no matter what, if he threatens the status quo.
/Mike
Front Fell Off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcU4t6zRAKg
/Mike
Front Fell Off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcU4t6zRAKg
The poster must have
The poster must have forgotten that the media laughs and labels us as extremists for following the constitution, not just 9/11..
"Oh, foolish man, what can you not be made to believe?" - Adam Weishaupt
www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com
"One man with courage is a majority." ~ Andrew Jackson
We NEED passionate people
We NEED passionate people about all topics, not just one.
Imagine if our entire movement was only passionate and talked about gun rights and global warming? We're not going to stand down because they laugh or ridicule us. Perfect example of the quote you have probably seen on here a hundred and one times.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." Mahatma Gandhi
"Oh, foolish man, what can you not be made to believe?" - Adam Weishaupt
www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com
"One man with courage is a majority." ~ Andrew Jackson
no, it can't stop...
"But all this birth certificate stuff, chemtrails, 9/11 truth movement stuff has to stop."
the free exchange of ideas is what this country, and this web site, is all about...
why would you call for a censorship or limiting of ideas here, on this web site?
someone else here is just as passionate about 911 as you are about health care...someone else here believes with all of their heart that obama is not eligible to be our president...
would you like it if someone told you no more healthcare threads?
everything this country does now is based on 911! and many believe it was a lie...it will never go away and will never be silenced...your healthcare post was good...i liked it, it had a good beat, and you could dance to it...why can't you live with things that are important to me...if you don't like a thread, don't read or contribute to it...
ridiculing me makes me ask why...especially, considering the state of our country and where we've fallen in the last 8 years
O Captain, My Captain, rise up and hear the bells!
its 'cos I owe ya, my young friend...
Rockin' the FREE world in Tennessee since 1957!