I just got Romans 13'd!!!
A local Pastor just Romans 13'd me!!!
His response to an e-mail I'd sent out:
"Keep this in mind as you make your political decisions. I do not agree with the current administration at all, but without us putting God first all of this political garbage will at best be no more than garbage. Without a heart change from within, we will only be changing faces and not agenda's.
Romans 13:1-7
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Titus 3:1
1Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Luke 20:25
25And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.
Matthew 5:44 (King James Version)
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"
My response to him:
Who gives you your rights Pastor? God or government?
Do you deny that Joseph and Mary directly disobeyed Herod and fled to Egypt with Jesus?
Do you deny that Daniel disobeyed the King and was thrown to the lions?
Wasn't this God's will then???????
I believe the word of no man as God has instructed such. I read my Bible, the inspired Word of God, and "work out my own salvation in fear and in trembling" I trust that God's will be done, not mine. Are we not on the same page?
Regarding Matthew 5:44, I do these things :)
Free will to do good or evil is a gift from God and reinforced by our U.S. Constitution. "Caesar", the president , is but 1/3 of our federal "check and balances" and ending finally, as the Founders would have it, with a jury of 12 of your peers, if need be. There is no "Caesar" for America....in our case, "Caesar" is a group of individuals, We the People, agreeing collectively to the Bill of Rights -- WE are our government. You could try to cram our 545 (535 congress, 1 Prez and 9 Supreme Court Judges) into a "Caesar" mold were it not that for our Constitution which expressly creates our government as OUR servants, not our "kings".
Have you read history? I imagine you have. You do know then that our country is the greatest human experiment in Liberty? Never before in history has a country's people retained such God given rights.
I judge a tree by the fruit it bears. Currently the government bears rotten fruit - both Democrat and Republican. Am I to sit by and allow the last bastion of God's freedom to diminish? Is this God's will then?
Respectfully,
Power Ordained of God, or Infected System?
When a government or power is infiltrated and subverted by sinful, greedy, self-serving, murderous, oppressive, dark forces, it is no longer the power that was originally ordained of God. No pastor on the planet can demonstrate to me that God expects me to continue following and supporting a power that has decayed and degraded from what may have been initially ordained.
Was Hitler ordained of God? No – Hitler's power was attained through subversion and deceit. Regardless, would your pastor suggest that Christians support, follow and obey Hitler's Satanic indoctrination, conquests and mass exterminations? Ask him. If he says “yes” then it's in your best interest to never again listen to another word he says, completely irrespective of ANY justification he cites. Don't even say goodbye; just leave and don't look back. If he says “no” then his doctrine of “support and obey unquestioningly” defeats itself, as well it should because it is a gross misinterpretation.
Also point out to him Romans 13:4 - “For he [the ruler(s)] is the minister of God to thee for good.” Can our current government and/or our president be considered a minister of God, acting for our own good? Heh - hardly.
Despite all of the above, you might also suggest to your pastor that he obtain and learn how to use a Greek lexicon and utilize it to correctly interpret Romans 13.
Finally, this may sound like “conspiracy theory” to you, but there is plenty of credible information available for your research on the matter – the government actually funds and establishes churches overseen by hand-picked pastors who will be loyal to agendas of idealogical subversion. One of the main points of instruction given to these false religious leaders is “preach and reiterate Romans 13.” Does this mean that your church falls under the Clergy Response Initiative? Maybe, or maybe not. But don't be too quick to rule out the possibility.
At my local 501C-3 "church"
We watched a video issued from the corporate headquarters, the CEO of our denomination, right after the election. The message from him (and I am paraphrasing) was- "You may not like the election results, but remember Romans 13. Be a good citizen and pay your taxes." I instantly turned around and scanned the faces of the people in the congregation, looking for disgust on just one persons face. Finding none, this scripture came to me "my people suffer for lack of knowledge"
A church should not have a CEO
You do not belong to a church. You belong to a government chartered indoctrination cult.
I wonder if any of them ever read the words "be a good citizen and pay taxes" in Romans 13.
Amen! that is the biggest problem in the Church today!
Too may CEO type pastors, too little acknowdgement of the 'preisthood of the believer' . John Calvin had more of a clue on what a Church should be like than any CEO pastor :
All the gifts we posess have been bestowed by God, and entrusted to us, on the condition that they be distributed for our neighbor's benefit. (which should exclude special governmental favor to the clergy)
and concerning governmental systems (once again, wiser than the pastor CEO):
And as I readily acknowledge that no kind of government is more happy than this, where liberty is regulated with becoming moderation, and properly established on a durable basis, so also I consider those as the most happy people, who are permitted to enjoy such a condition; and if they exert their strenuous and constant efforts for its preservation and retention, I admit that they act in perfect consistence with their duty. And to this object the magistrates likewise ought to apply their greatest diligence, that they suffer (allow) not the liberty, of which they are constituted guardians, to be in any respect diminished, much less to be violated: if they are inactive and unconcerned about this, they are perfidious to their office, and traitors to their country.
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-I favor extending to Israel the same honest friendship that Jefferson and the Founding Fathers urged us to offer to all nations. ...This means I also favor discontinuing foreign aid to governments that are actual or potential enemies of Israel,--Ron Paul
But that man should play the tyrant over God, and find Him a better man than himself, is astonishing drama indeed!~~D. Sayers
There is no difference between an authoritarian government from the right or the left...F. A.Schaeffer
All True Christians are to RESIST any form of or working...
a One World Government where The Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible is NOT at the helm.
Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather than men." is the answer and balance to Romans 13.
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
In Yâ-hwéh Yâhuwshúa`, The LORD Jesus Christ;
Dave
"where the Spirit of the LORD is, there is liberty." 2 Cor. 3:17
http://www.lionandlambministry.com
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
In The LORD Jesus Christ;
Dave
"where the Spirit of the LORD is, there is liberty." 2 Cor. 3:17
http://www.lionandlambministry.com
He's right.
Only a change in the human heart can bring about any change for the better.
Governed by God or ruled by tyrants.
No, he's vague and inane
Look at your own loose interpretation of his loose interpretation of Scripture.
He wrote,"Without a heart change from within, we will only be changing faces and not agenda's."
You wrote in response, "Only a change in the human heart can bring about any change for the better."
When some one holds themselves to scrutiny under the title "pastor", they ought to expect Biblical words and their words to be compared.
When this man, aka. pastor, wrote such brilliant, philosophically-nuanced, words as,"we will only be changing faces and not agenda's", how does your reply, "Only a change in the human heart can bring about any change for the better", relate to any of the scriptures cited?
For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it. - Patrick Henry
Indeed
However the ears must hear and prayer/reasoning must begin a conversation with God in the mind. Shall I carry a sign that says "Jesus Saves so End the Fed"? I could kill two birds with one stone thattaway. ;)
Isn't it odd then that I "received my call toward Liberty" in a 10,000+ Christian Conference? I did not need anyone "preaching" to me about Jesus, per se (telling me the same things I've heard over and over). I needed a faithful, trustworthy Christian person to help me more clearly see the evil ways of our current government and how these actions have overwritten our God and his full intentions for man and how they affect my spirit in REAL TIME.
Believe me, I've run around like a head with my chicken cut off for years, "trying to save others". Actually if we believe the inspired Word of God we would know:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men....
If we really believe this scripture to be true. I would say that God has handled, in every man's heart -- and to their persona, an "appearance" or a "knock on the heart". Frankly, I'm tired of people trying to guilt trip me into remaining on a fixed and "ordained" lecture on Christ that God has already told us He Himself has proposed to each human heart.
It is the "deniers of God's appearance in their lives" you speak of that "need change in their heart" and salvation? I suggest to you that perhaps these folks are better "brought around" by the clear presentation of the factual evils of this country/the world so that they can actually "get there arms around" the fact that "spiritual warfare" is in play and a reality. Unless God has hardened their hearts due to continual denial, hearing and acknowledging "truth .period.", is the first step toward recognizing the need for a relationship with God.
It is said that the Gospel would be preached all over the world in the "end times". Is that not true of today? Has the gospel not reached all four corners of the earth? Have we not heard the same "pitch" for Jesus over and over again? Who does not know this story? I just happen to "apply and speak my faith" to the truth of current events when speaking with others in hopes that "reality" will draw them toward a relationship with God. I reject others ideas of what God would have me do. Should I trust my relationship with God or believe man who claims "I'm not doing it right"?
I do not hide my Christianity but I also do not beat others over the head with my interpretations. It is clear to anyone I come in contact with that I stand with Jesus Christ, I am a walking billboard. For someone to "back me down" from what God instructs me, be it religious or political, I take issue with, as no one can judge my relationship with God or my purpose on this earth.
Will Jesus "End the Fed"? Jesus has no hands with which to work in this physical realm we deal with, we are Jesus' hands.
***
Freedom is not: doing everything you want to.
Freedom is: not having to do what you don't want to do.
~ Joyce Meyer
Freedom is not: doing everything you want to.
Freedom is: not having to do what you don't want to do.
~ Joyce Meyer
How about Saddam Hussein and the Taliban?
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. QUOTE
If the powers that be are ordained of God, then the Taliban and Saddam were ordained of God. Those who used force against them or even paid taxes to support their destruction "shall receive to themselves damnation".
Looks like some Christians are going to Hell.
To those who disagree, how else would you interpret these verses?
Pastor Chuck Responds
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2009/cbarchive_20090227.html
And read his comments about modern churches.
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2009/cbarchive_20090825.html
Some resources
Here's some good material:
1. http://www.americanvision.org/article/using-the-power-of-civ...
2. http://www.americanvision.org/article/double-security-to-the...
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMF04YRf0UU (part 1 of 6)
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ONvhSHgoAk (part 2 of 6)
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15xbZmQsNm0 (part 3 of 6)
6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5iGYiADgm0 (part 4 of 6)
7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW86Amct6dE (part 5 of 6)
8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Ov1K3EETw (part 6 of 6)
No, you got slimed
If he walked in the truth he prescribed, he wouldn't have put his shallow post-it note comments above Holy Scripture.
It's been said that whatever is said after the word,"but", is usually what the speakers' true intent is. When he wrote, "but without us putting God first all of this political garbage will at best be no more than garbage", this man under the title of pastor, called whatever he considered "putting God first" all he needed to pass judgment on "all of this political garbage".
All the scriptures given here are on point, but his overused cliche answer doesn't lead me to believe that he has much of a working knowledge of how to apply them in the world arena.
I like the part of your answer where you said," I believe the word of no man as God has instructed such." One of my favorite verses said it this way: "let God be true, but every man a liar" (Romans 3:4a)
For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it. - Patrick Henry
Good posts deserve bumps, too
Thank you, Promisekept, well said.
-I favor extending to Israel the same honest friendship that Jefferson and the Founding Fathers urged us to offer to all nations. ...This means I also favor discontinuing foreign aid to governments that are actual or potential enemies of Israel,--Ron Paul
But that man should play the tyrant over God, and find Him a better man than himself, is astonishing drama indeed!~~D. Sayers
There is no difference between an authoritarian government from the right or the left...F. A.Schaeffer
Nice RP quote
Won't it be great when there will soon be more voices like his in DC?
Gods' speed C4L !
As for the post, kudos back at you for being kind enough to say so.
Having endured many years of challenges from those who believe themselves an authority simply because they hold a title or some academic degrees, has helped me appreciate the huge chasm between,"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom"(Prov.9:10a) and "The fear of man (that) bringeth a snare"(Proverbs 29:25a)
For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it. - Patrick Henry
I sure pray so!
May freedom lovers take over the Congress speedily, so that my awake aunt may see it.
--------------------
-I favor extending to Israel the same honest friendship that Jefferson and the Founding Fathers urged us to offer to all nations. ...This means I also favor discontinuing foreign aid to governments that are actual or potential enemies of Israel,--Ron Paul
But that man should play the tyrant over God, and find Him a better man than himself, is astonishing drama indeed!~~D. Sayers
There is no difference between an authoritarian government from the right or the left...F. A.Schaeffer
PLEASE follow the replys, order.
Good people do Good deeds
and are no respecter of person
Send an additional reply with this link or copy and paste the
text, but be sure to credit Pastor Baldwin.
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20070810.html
SCbutterfly
remind me during the day tomorrow, I have a Sunday school lesson on the computer at work you would like. I fill in in our class when the teacher is out. We don't use the literature in our class from the Baptist, we use the Bible & as a commentary to the Bible we use the Bible. (radical ain't it, there are about 7-8 folks in the church that think that the regular teacher and a couple more of us are the worst thing possible)
Well, anyway, I found scripture that backs up, of all things, not following unGodly, immoral, or unBiblical teachings and programs. Imagine that, if the leaders are telling us to do things outside of God's word then we shouldn't obey. Romans 13 applies to obeying leaders who are in God's will, not leaders that are against God.
"What was taken from the boomers, it ain't there, what was taken from the X'ers it ain't there, what is being taken from their great, great, great squared grandchildren it ain't there. Some generation just has to have the guts to quit passing it on." Me
*May the only ones to touch your junk, be the ones you want to touch your junk.*
ODell....lay it on me :)
You can send me an e-mail if you'd rather not post here.
P.S. Have not heard back from the Pastor.
***
Freedom is not: doing everything you want to.
Freedom is: not having to do what you don't want to do.
~ Joyce Meyer
Freedom is not: doing everything you want to.
Freedom is: not having to do what you don't want to do.
~ Joyce Meyer
It's on the way
It is on my old crashed computer, I have pulled it out on a thumb drive and will get it to you.
"What was taken from the boomers, it ain't there, what was taken from the X'ers it ain't there, what is being taken from their great, great, great squared grandchildren it ain't there. Some generation just has to have the guts to quit passing it on." Me
*May the only ones to touch your junk, be the ones you want to touch your junk.*
Got it! Thanks!
-I favor extending to Israel the same honest friendship that Jefferson and the Founding Fathers urged us to offer to all nations. ...This means I also favor discontinuing foreign aid to governments that are actual or potential enemies of Israel,--Ron Paul
But that man should play the tyrant over God, and find Him a better man than himself, is astonishing drama indeed!~~D. Sayers
There is no difference between an authoritarian government from the right or the left...F. A.Schaeffer
I am interested as well...
please contact me here (or there- ROCR)
-I favor extending to Israel the same honest friendship that Jefferson and the Founding Fathers urged us to offer to all nations. ...This means I also favor discontinuing foreign aid to governments that are actual or potential enemies of Israel,--Ron Paul
But that man should play the tyrant over God, and find Him a better man than himself, is astonishing drama indeed!~~D. Sayers
There is no difference between an authoritarian government from the right or the left...F. A.Schaeffer
Must I clarify ? I am
Must I clarify ? I am agreeing with SC response, DIGG ? Good people do Good deeds
and are no respecter of person
Huh?
I saw your comment below about us being the authority, that was the premise of the lesson. We were given the authority by God. The lesson, I did was on that.
"What was taken from the boomers, it ain't there, what was taken from the X'ers it ain't there, what is being taken from their great, great, great squared grandchildren it ain't there. Some generation just has to have the guts to quit passing it on." Me
*May the only ones to touch your junk, be the ones you want to touch your junk.*
YES, great . Good people do
YES, great .
Good people do Good deeds
and are no respecter of person
Romans 13
Whenever someone throws Romans 13 in my face, I inform them that I follow the teachings of Jesus, not Paul.
http://goldsteinrepublic.com
Romans 13 is Scripture
What you said is completely the wrong response. The Book of Romans is part of the infallible Word of God. Romans 13 is from God. The question is, what is Romans 13 actually saying? This guy on YouTube does a good job discussing it:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmol8-fDMsQ (part 1)
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXKyCCvsx1Y (part 2)
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnNQzOuVp9E (part 3)
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZFDB07Cqas (part 4)
Good job
Hope you don't mind, I edited your name and sent it to some people who may benefit by it.
The powers that rule America
The powers that rule America are to be subject to We the People , who are the actual power & authority described in this passage .
When a tree gives forth rotten apples it's time to prune the tree. HAH?
Good people do Good deeds
and are no respecter of person
G-d's mercies
IT rains on the just & the unjust.
For a witness , there will be NO excuse.
This also means there is no excuse for christians to break the law & commandments to promote a human idea of christianity.
There is no one so blind as he who will not see...
Good people do Good deeds
and are no respecter of person