Anarchy is not the answer. - UPDATED

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This video clearly demonstrates that anarchy represents the loss of liberty for two reasons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUkxOlTr2ZI

1) A country with no government requires each person to constantly protect his property for there are no laws and others can come and take what you have. Therefore, your freedom of movement is severly restricted. Also, there is the constant threat of death by the stronger. Survival of the fittest.

2) Anarchists may want to end government which is corrupt, but there is a very real threat, that the sheeple will rise up and beg the government to save them and in the process surrender all their liberties to the government in exchange for security.

Anarchy never lasts, at some point some group will grasp power.

This makes me believe that peaceful revolution for the restoration of our Constitutional Republic is the best course of action.

I vow to never initiate violence, unless violence is initiated upon me by a government who would violate my Constitutional rights.

But where do you draw the line? Well for me, it is the boundary of my own property.

I do however believe in non-violent civil disobedience. This is probably the best approach. Like next time there is a march on Washington, don't just stay on the National Mall, shut down all the streets for days, that'll get their attention.

This video will make clear why some with alternative "viewpoints" have been questioning the ideals of Dr. Paul.

Those who believe that anarchy could last more than a year are delusional in my opinion.

Questions for Anarchists.

1) Please tell me an instance where anarchy ever survived for more than a year, and tell me if that was a place that you would like to live in.

2) Also, most people in this country are not awake, and anarchy will send them running to the govt. to protect them. The government will then pass all sorts of laws restricting personal liberty, for the sake of security.
How does this benefit anyone but the government?

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Ron Paul is for SELF GOVERNMENT (Anarcho-Capitalism)

["This video will make clear why some with alternative "viewpoints" have been questioning the ideals of Dr. Paul."]

Ah, what? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFYRHZpavX4
Anarcho-Capitalists are in line with Ron Paul. They support Natural Law / Natural Rights / Austrian Economics.

"1) Please tell me an instance where anarchy ever survived for more than a year, and tell me if that was a place that you would like to live in."

http://www.ozarkia.net/bill/anarchism/faq.html#part18

Please tell me an instance where a government has ever remained limited ?

"2) Also, most people in this country are not awake, and anarchy will send them running to the govt. to protect them. The government will then pass all sorts of laws restricting personal liberty, for the sake of security.
How does this benefit anyone but the government?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIgHO8SZJdI

We never reach absolutes.

Anarchy (total freedom) is one end of a scale. The other end is tyranny (total subjugation). So which end of the scale works best, more freedom or more government? I think the history of the world suggests that the closer we live to anarchy, the better off we are and it has been periods of freedom that have brought about economic advance, more natural distribution of wealth and improvement in the human condition.

I think we at a point in history where most people have been conditioned to think that government is the answer to our problems. Instead of thinking of private security services, insurance, and private arbitration, many of us think that only government can provide us protection of our property. Yet the evidence is that government itself is the greatest threat to the security of our property.

I would say that the disease of collectivism has infected more than one mind, even among those who frequent this site.

"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence." Thomas H. Huxley

You nailed the root

Collectivism, in my opinion, is the root of the problem that people seeking liberty must overcome.

Anarchy flourished for tens of thousands of years in Vedic

Russia, everyone living creatively, in harmony with nature. No wars, just peace and abundance for all people. www.ringingcedars.com

"Be wary of those who know the truth. Align yourself with those who are questing for the truth." L. Gardner

"Be wary of those who know the truth. Align yourself with those who are questing for the truth." L. Gardner

Jesus de Soto makes a good

Jesus de Soto makes a good case for the opposite in his recent Mises opinion. It's a good read:

http://mises.org/story/3791

Great article. Minarchists

Great article. Minarchists read it at risk of questioning their beliefs.

marlow

marlow

Anarchy

isn't THE answer. There is no earthly answer. The world is flawed and will be until the Second Coming.

Anarchy is worth considering. It would never survive, though, unless people had such an overwhelming love for liberty that they insisted it survive, which they don't. Eventually, someone would come along who would have enough power to act with impunity. At that point, you have government.

Defend Liberty!

I agree with SirFelix (in part) and Atrick (in part)

Ron Paul and Mises both argued for a Minarchist transition -- in particular Mises argued for a Consumer-Minarchist transition.

If enumerated our current direct/indirect tax rate of 80% of income (roughly) would be reduced by Paul's hand to approx. 12% sales tax (no other form of tax).

By my enumeration (proposed consumer-minarchism) our 80% would be reduced to 7% -- therefore a two step RP then Octobox transition would be more natural (smile -- as if anyone is asking little ole me).

RP believes in less gov't not set gov't -- so his minarchsm (as with myself and Mises) will continue to dwindle as time goes on.

The "goal" would be Consumer-Individualism (or as close as we can get to it), which un-like the impossible Rothbardian-Capitalism, is the only REAL form of Anarchy (or Consumer-Sovereignty).

Workers-Rights lead to Communism
Owners-Rights lead to Corporatism (eventually)

Since all people are Consumers

C-Sovereign = ZERO Worker-Rights + ZERO Owner's-Rights

Octobox

Message to all ANARCHISTS.

Anarchy may be better than the rule of law as prescribed by our Constitution.

But Anarchy, in my opinion, is too big of a step for the sheeple to handle.

We got our hands full, just trying to convince the populace that the Constitution was written to restrain the government.

Baby steps my friend. Just as the elite take baby steps to erode our liberty, we must take baby steps to restore our liberty.

This is where my mind is at currently.

I welcome all points of view.

It is only by respectful conversation that we learn anything. And nobody ever learned anything by talking, you have to listen.

Thanks.

I agree.

I agree.

Sirfelix: and archy is the answer?!

Being opposed to archy (ie. being an anti-archist, aka "anarchist") is simply being consistent with the principles of liberty.

Consider

I am sympathetic to anarchy, I actually wouldn't mind seeing what it woud look like. But with this in mind, I offer this as food for thought, not as 'arguments' from the 'other side'. I offer them in the spirit of inspiring more questions than rebuttals.

Q1: Terry Anderson and Peter Hill's book The Not So Wild, Wild, West paints an interesting picture of the Western Territories in North America, prior to the Federal Government's establishment in these areas. In many areas The State was so far removed that people had to organize their own property rights regimes. Hence the creation of Cattlemen's Associations to define and enforce property rights for cattle grazing, or the development of the Prior Appropriation doctrine for water rights in the arid southwest, or gold mining camps that defined property rights for gold mining claims, and instituted their own common law, courts, and enforced their own rules, even handling thefts and murders.

When state laws were finally established in these areas they merely adopted the common customs developed by these private parties. In this regard it is interesting to ask:
Which comes first? Law or Justice? How is one to know if a law is just, if a sense of what is just is not already present within the customs of the society? Don't legislatures merely codify the customs of their peoples? When they codify law contrary to custom those laws are seen as unjust. Justice is not an invention of the State. As Cicero noted, The best interpretor of the law is custom

The Lex Mercatoria was an excellent illustration of this prinicpal. Merchants in the Middle Ages were wont for a system of arbitration that could settle disputes quickly, fairly, and without creating animosity between the involved parties (being able to resolve disputes this way is good for business). Unfortunately the commercial climate they operated in was one full of disparate feifdoms, kingdoms, and municipalities. It was costly, time-consuming, and often lead to acrimony between parties when disputes were taken to State courts (all bad for business). So the merchants created their own system.

Disputes were often tried before a panel of respected merchants, usually experts in the area, and familiar with its particular customs. Decisions were quick, inexpensive, and the enforcement mechanism operated through reputation and boycott. The Merchant Court could not force you to abide by its ruling. But it was adhered to because it was fair. And it was fair because it was a voluntary system: any sense that it was unfair would lead to its abandonment. The Lex Mercatoria survives to this day in organizations such as The Association for International Arbitration .

The absence of State legislated law does not imply an absence of order. It is often argued that law, justice, roads, schools, etc are 'public goods' that the market cannot provide and therefore the State must do so. That people must be coerced in their own best interest.

However, if these services are so essential, and indeed they are, it is to be expected that people would organize these things for themselves. Their provision by the State merely preempts them from doing so, and what's more, would-be competitors in the provision of these goods are prosecuted.

The absence of the State does not mean an absence of organization or governance. The State does not equal governance.

Interestingly, the man accredited with the formation of the modern Welfare State, Otto von Bismarck (profiled on the Social Security Administration's website) had this to say about the Nation State: 'The goal of this task is to nurture among the unpropertied classes of the population, which are the most numerous as well as the least informed, the view that the state is not only a necessary but also a beneficent institution.' quoted from American Health Care, edited by RD Feldman

Bismarck unified hundreds, if not thousands, of small local municipalities into a centralized nation state. He found putting people on the dole a useful way to buy their allegience. It is interesting to note that he viewed his task as not only to paint the Nation State as 'beneficent' but even that it was 'necessary' at all.

Anarchy is merely the organization of society along commercial and customary lines. Something that happens anyway alongside a legislated order. Removal of the legislated order would simply mean people continue to organize themselves.
---------------------------------------------------------
(With regard to your second question it is somewhat unclear. It seems as though it could be taken that because the absence of the State would benefit the State we should therefore have a State? Of course this is an erroneous proposition and I do not intend to attribute it to you, nor set up a strawman. But let me turn to an important issue I think it brings up: the essential character of this 'debate' and how it is to be taken by the armchair political scientist and the 'sheeple' at large):

Now with regard to violence, let us be clear. No 'side' in this debate can claim utopia. There is violence in the world. People organizing themselves would not eliminate violence or coercion. The question, however is this: Does it therefore follow that the best approach is to centralize and monopolize the use of coercion? To concentrate it? and grant that concentration an aire of legitimacy?

On that note I'll share some of the work by Robert Higgs (author of Against Leviathan: Goverment Power and a Free Soceity. :

Although I admit that the outcome in a stateless society will be bad, because not only are people not angels, but many of them are irredeemably vicious in the extreme, I conjecture that the outcome in a society under a state will be worse, indeed much worse, because, first, the most vicious people in society will tend to gain control of the state (Hayek 1944, 134-52; Bailey 1988; Higgs 2004, 33-56) and, second, by virtue of this control over the state’s powerful engines of death and destruction, they will wreak vastly more harm than they ever could have caused outside the state (Higgs 2004, 101-05). It is unfortunate that some individuals commit crimes, but it is stunningly worse when such criminally inclined individuals wield state powers.

(excerpted from his latest article at the Independent Institute, If Men were Angels: The basic analytics of the State versus Self-Government http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1982)

Consider that if you assume the worst of human nature in your evaluation of a theoretical anarchy, you must hold that assumption constant when evaluating the alternative of the State. Those same pirates, theives, murders, thugs, vagrants, and libertines which permeate the worst case scenario under anarchy, are still present in the alternative order of the State, and likely, as Robert Higgs points out, they control it.

R.J. Rummel estimates that States killed 260 million of their own citizens in the 20th century not including international conflicts. Are we really to suppose that people without the concentrated use of force known as the State could have done any worse, even if they tried?

It is difficult to imagine anarchy. All any of us have every known is the State. I am sympathetic to anarchy, but I cannot describe what it would look like. We have reason to believe however (history being our guide) that we couldn't do much worse without a State. Be aware of premature conclusions. Be aware of the character of the logic leveled against anarchy. Your intellectual opposition is not those sympathetic with anarchy, it is the conceptual box we live inside, the box that has been handed to us, the outside of which none of us know.

I don't worry about the other 'sheeple'. I conentrate on me. How do I live? Do I live in a box? How much of what one may consider to be organized by the State is actually organized by freely associating people?

And consider as Alfred Cuzan has (http://mises.org/journals/jls/3_2/3_2_3.pdf) the question: Do we every really get out of anarchy?
Consider what in your household is influenced by the State. Likely what is, is not wished to be there. Yet, the State is considered desirable for what is has presumably prevented from manifesting.
-------------------------------------------------
Consider then, the nature of these propositions. Propositions in favor of the State are arguing on the basis of negative events. Events that never happen. A proposition that is unfalsifiable. Propositions against the State are made using positive events, events that have happened, ie. the historical record.

What 'the anarchist' points out is that murder, theft, crime, etc happen on the State's watch and he proposes a theory that implicates the mechanism of the Sate as making these situations worse. The historical record appears to bear this theory out. It is suggested these events would be reduced without a State, and importantly this argument is falsifiable given the opportunity to do so.

Again, it is crucial to realize that propositions that favor the State because of what it prevents are claiming something unfalsifiable. It does nothing to advance the discourse.

I would in turn, put forward a positive challenge: The challenge to thoroughly demonstrate where an instance of the State has effectively reduced murder, theft, rape, vulgarity, etc. I think one would be hard-pressed to do so for States are merely organized and legitimated coercion. If one were found, however, we could then compare that with some of the examples I and others have provided as evidence of functional, voluntary orders.

It is not then, that without the State there would be no violence. It is that without violence, there would be no State. Violence is the sine qua non of the State. A world without violence, of course, is not an option. Thus, in considering the spectrum of unsatisfactory options how shall we evaluate them?

Again, Robert Higgs:

...we might well apply the precautionary principle, which has been much discussed (and nearly always misapplied) in recent years in relation to environmental policy. This principle holds that if an action or policy might cause great irreparable harm, then, notwithstanding a lack of scientific consensus, those who support the action or policy should shoulder the burden of proof. In applying this principle to the state’s establishment and operation, the state’s supporters would appear to stagger under a burden of proof they cannot support with either logic or evidence. Everyone can see the immense harm the state causes day in and day out, not to mention its periodic orgies of mass death and destruction.

continued...
The lesson of the precautionary principle is plain: because people are vile and corruptible, the state, which holds by far the greatest potential for harm and tends to be captured by the worst of the worst, is much too risky for anyone to justify its continuation. To tolerate it is not simply to play with fire, but to chance the total destruction of the human race.

As I conclude, take this as all food for thought. 'Anarchy' is not the bogeymen. It is the dark recesses of our own minds that cannot imagine what life is like outside the box we've always lived in. Of what it would mean to actually be free. To consider what it would be like if we agreed that no man had legitimate power over another.

The world would not be perfect under 'anarchy' but it's not perfect to begin with. The question is should we, therefore, then centralize coercion? Does this make it better?

And remember, 'anarchy' is merely the free market write large, being familiar with it will hone your free-market rhetoric when you debate the leftists.

I hope these thoughts contribute fruitfully to the discourse of a civil society.

WhiteWhale -- I have a similar affliction "long windedness"

I could only hash through sections as I don't have time for a small novel, hahaha.

Let's keep this short.

Are you in favor of Rothbardian Anarcho-Capitalism or some other false Anarchy?

Or are you in favor of a Consumer-Minarchism (as a transitionary model) which moves towards Consumer-Indivdiualism -- the only REAL voluntary society? This was Mises argument (RP's mentor).

Octobox

Your dismissal of Rothbard

Your dismissal of Rothbard has never made sense to me. Rothbard's anarchy is one wherein all functions performed by government should be performed by participants in a free market. Either there will be a demand for such goods/services such that a profit can be made or, if not, such goods/services will cease to be available. No one has been more forthright in opposing government intervention than was Rothbard (how could they in that he opposed the very existance of a state, making him an "anarchist") Yet you term such a position a "false anarchy". Absent an explanation demonstrating Rothbard's falsity your accusation carries little weight.

marlow

marlow

Marlow: Let me put some weight behind it

Rothbard "says" he is an Anarchist -- correct?
-----Anarcho-Capitalism is his theory -- correct?

Anarchy means -- No Authority or Self-Rule -- correct?
Anarchy thusly is a Voluntary Society -- correct?

Rothbard argues in favor of Self-Ownership -AND- Property-Rights -- correct?

Rights must be "protected" -- correct?

Anarchy must have ZERO "force-agents" (gov't or gangsters) to be voluntary -- correct?

According to Rothbard Police and Courts are both in the private market -- correct? They are "voluntary" correct?

Then if you and I have a property dispute and we were not under contract (or even if we were) -- how do you resolve it if I disagree with every private court you hire from the private voluntary market?

The problem with Rothbardian Theory (and it's really simple) is that they flew past the first (or one of the first) premise as they meditate on how a free-society would function. Namely "what are the profit drivers for the wealthy in a ZERO Abdication and ZERO Theft Society?"

From Entrepreneurialism and Intrepreneurialism.

In a Free-Society -AND- in a Corporatist Society "oscillation" is what creates profit. The Oscillator in Property Profits in a Corporatist Society is Currency Manipulation -- Misesians (like Ron Paul) and Rothbardians (like Lew Rockwell) would all agree on that -- correct?

The crazy thing is Rothbardians know this -- they argue the absolute importance of it -- that it's key to tech advancement and growth that the entrepreneur be un-encumbered and free to innovate.

If Bill Gates "Lobbies" to protect his property rights does this bolster innovation (entrepreneurialism) or dampen it? All Rothbardians agree -- yet they can't see it as it pertains to physical property (homes and tools of production).

Rothbardians argue against Intellectual Property Rights thinking there are certain property rights that deserve protecting and others that do not -- as if they forgot thier own argument that ALL property is tied to currency-valuation. Hahahaha.

They cannot see the forest from the trees.

Rothbardians rightly argue that PROPERTY is tied to Dollar-Health -- it's an absolute fact that ALL PROPERTY is a reflection of currency.

Now here is their mistake. Currency does not "fluctuate" in value in a free-society, it is stable in the medium to long-run; because there is perfect competition and no barriers to entry between currency producing businesses.

Remember currency is stable In the medium to long-run in a free-society
----Rothbardians know this.

In the short-run if there were a tech advancement in currency (an innovation in delivery or mining or something) then there will be a spike (profit burst) in a free-market.
----Rothbardians know and believe this as well.

The wealthy (in free-society) would need to keep their assets highly liquid to "capture" innovation in the short-run. If there is "protectionism" of any kind (especially around property) then the need to stay liquid is removed and the wealthy will hold onto (owing to guaranteed profits) property in the medium to long-run..

Protection in a free-society is "wisdom of choice"

Protection in a Capitalist (Owner) Society is an ever growing need -- meaning if the mechanism of freedom is differentiated between players then people will form "groups" and war with one another.

Owners vs Other Owners -- To cure this you either move toward Liberty (non-protectionism) or a Unionization of Owners (Banksterism)

Owners vs Workers -- To cure this neither can have rights (protection)

You get the idea here.

In a Owner-Rights society (capitalism) the owners will demand the advantage over voting -- Founding Fathers (owners movement). Leading to Gangster Backed Labor Unions.

In a Worker-Rights the workers will demand the advantage over voting -- Bulshiveks (sp?) -- Karl Marx. Leading to Gangster Backed Capitalism.

In a Corporatist Society (Owners-Rights and Workers-Rights) it is Perpetual War (voting and lobbying for all).

Conclusion: Rothbard did not meditate deeply enough on how the wealthy drive profit in a free-society -- Also, he was trying to prove Capitalism; rather than to ask -- maybe when Marx coined the term Capitalism (calling it Economic-Fuedalism) maybe he was right?

Being that I'm not an absolutist I think anyone at the head of major movements have some "genius" about them.

That being said I think Rothbard; where he agreed with Mises, was a genius.

My argument is the Misesian argument.

The ONLY anarchy is Consumer-Individualism -- BEACAUSE the Worker and the Owner are both consumers. Everyone is a consumer 24hrs per day.

The consumer is ONLY protected (since he pays all costs) when the Workers and Owners have no RIGHTS (protectionism).

Octobox

I appreciate the effort you

I appreciate the effort you have put into your response. I regret my response needs be quickly typed so I cannot now give full attention to all your points. However, I do have a few quick comments.

You write:

"According to Rothbard Police and Courts are both in the private market -- correct? They are "voluntary" correct?

Then if you and I have a property dispute and we were not under contract (or even if we were) -- how do you resolve it if I disagree with every private court you hire from the private voluntary market?"

I believe you drastically underestimate the capacity for free people to provide suitable solutions to society's problems. First, European legal systems were initially private. As the middle ages grew out of the dark ages after the collapse of the Roman empire, trade and commerce developed over large areas among different peoples. The Law Merchant developed from those involved in commerce to provide certainty, predictability and protection of investments - all privately. It was very effective. Governments later took over its functions for governmental purposes. I am not positing the Law Merchant as the paradigm that must be followed. I cannot predict what form legal services would take in a free market - just pointing out it can be provided for. Personally, I consider that Stephan Molyneux's "Practical Anarchy" wherein he explains how Dispute Resolution Organisations (his term) could effectively satisfy society's need for legal services in a free market to be a successful approach if tried.

I find it curious you use this argument - free market courts are unworkable - inasmuch as you too advocate anarchy - what you refer to as "The ONLY anarchy is Consumer-Individualism". Thus, even though I disagree with your position, your argument against anarchy should equally apply to your preferred anachy.

I don't understand your reference to "oscillation" as profitability drivers. I am sorry to say, and I mean no offense, but I simply cannot follow most of the rest of your argument, i.e., "that ALL PROPERTY is a reflection of currency". You then go into a long discussion of "protectionism" vis a vis workers and owners. But Rothbard opposed all protectionism.

But no matter that I don't follow as I don't believe the rest of it was focused on my concern - that being why you considered Rothbard's anarchy "false". I believe you explained your position by saying you consider private courts unworkable. I don't wish to put words in your mouth. Its possible I simply misunderstand your points.

marlow

marlow

Marlow: Yes it is possible you do not understand me.

The argument needs to be made more simple.

Private Voluntary Courts can only stay that way if they are voluntarily agreed upon.

Court A (which you prefer) is located on B Street

Court B (I prefer) is located on C Street.

You refuse Court B and I Court A -- in fact if I refuse every court you chose and you the same then how do you "enforce" Property-Rights -- which Rothbard advocates.

You can't "force" me into a court I don't agree too. If the court CAN force me in or if ANYONE can force me to a court then it is not a free-society.

The whole propertarian argument goes out the window anyway.

All Rothbardians know that protection destroys innovation and creativity -- IP rights (for example -- is one source of property rights).

The argument all Misesian and Rothbardians make against protectionism (gov't or gangster or bankster) is that it is grotesquely inefficient -- I would argue for every dollar the gov't spends the free-market could handle it for 80cents less.

So, why would they want "protectionism" regarding personal property or in regard the tools of production?

You must protect your stuff yourself.

The mistake comes from not properly analysing what the profit drivers are in a free-society.

Even a Misesian Minarchism has more freedom than a Rothbardian-Anarchy.

No rights to Owners
No rights to Workers

American Indians were Tribal Anarchist
Irish were Clan Propertarian Anarchist

Both were easily taken over.

When Owners have no Rights and Workers have no Rights the Consumer pays only the cost of production and profit is based on ZERO barriers to entry (ZERO protectionism).

Octobox

So you aren't here to debate ideals

just push your agenda.. and arguments.

Your posts are no longer of use to me.

Veritass: My "agenda" -- hahahahaha

I'm a username and a font -- as far as you are concerned.

I could change my username and come back in here and become your best friend, smile.

I'm trying to understand that man -- so I made my question very simple so as not to confuse any one; if that's not usefull to you then push on brother, I'll try to be more "useful" to you in other posts.

I'm not Lobbying for your Vote -- "agenda" -- wow!

Octobox

Agendas.

everyone has them. Only people with poor ones claim such as yourself.

To me, Your user name and font no longer have pull behind them.

veritass: Thanks for taking the time to explain yourself.

Why be such an absolutist and why comment your position on a personality -- were your feelings hurt by something I said (of course not), did I disagree with something you said? I mean what's the issue if you are going to take the time to pitch a little tantrum about it.

Be a man (or woman) and talk it out -- what do you disagree with, I'll list my positions.

1) I agree with RP we need a Minarchist Transition. (how's that position?)

2) Mises believes we need a Minarchist Transition. (how's that position?)

3) I've said Mises and Rothbard disagree over who the individual is in a free-society. (how's that position?)

4) I'm against having one soldier on Foreign Soil - policing. (how's that position?)

5) Like RP I disagree with the 911-Truth Movement - for me its more of their approach and like Congressman Paul I think another investigation would be good. (how's that position?)

6) Like RP I'm not in league with Birthers, Chemtrailers, FEMA Campers, et al "sky is falling" efforts -- it's not the issues it's the people, the language, and the hysteria. (how's that position?)

7) Like RP I do not support the National-Sovereign-Movement -- I support Mises argument on how we "keep" a free-society which can be summed up in my Counter-Economics model (C-E). (how's that position?)

8) I don't like it when a certain vocal faction of DP goes off on all cops, like RP I'm an individualist and believe 1 bad cop = 1 fired cop -- (how's that position?)

That's mostly what I talk about -- which one of those eliminates "the pull" of my username and font?

Octobox

the issue I'm raising

is not so much the nature of the state, but about the nature of the arguments in favor of a state. They are typically unfalsifiable. Hence...irrelevant?

I am in favor of a society organized along voluntary commercial and customary lines.

And yes, the art of articulation does not usually express itself as merely 'lots of words', thanks for reminding me. ;)

consumer-individualism

Octo,

I'm still having trouble understanding this. I read your posts about it, but I don't fully understand it.

Is there link on Mises to an article on this concept?

Limelemon: Consumer-Individualism #1

What don't you understand?

Mises believed in a transitionary Minarchism (from Corporatism) as does Ron Paul. He argued that the individual was the consumer, the only sovereign.

Rothbard argued that the Individual was a Propertarian (oh himself and his "property")

Rothbard and Mises vehemently disagreed with one another in this regard.

In all Liberty models ONLY the individual can be protected -- determining who that is is tantamount; and truthfully only one of them can be right!!

The Owner is not the Worker

The Worker is not the Owner

However, in their rolls as worker and owner they are both consumers -AND- when they go home they are consumers.

Consumption: To Use, To Transform, and To Waste (or diminish)

We consume: Knowledge, Air, Water, Nutrients, Products, Resources, Services, Fuel, Recycling, and Each Other.

We consume 24hrs per day.

Thus Mises argued the individual is the consumer -- it's the only "universal" regarding all people.

Individualism is the root of liberty and the root of anarchy ("no authority).

For the Consumer to be free there can be no war between workers and owners.

Voting - Lobbying - Taxes - Regulations - Rights - Laws - Judicial Rullings - all forms of Protectionism are the constructs of Perpetual War.

Consumer-Minarchism puts small taxes on the consumer ONLY (only the individual pays taxes).

After Militarism cools down and all foreign debt is paid off (maybe 50 years) we can dispense with all forms of taxation on the Consumer; thus Consumer-Individualism or Consumer-Sovereignty (authority).

Octobox

LimeLemon: Consumer-Individualism #2

Yes there are.

I think Mises used Consumer-Sovereignty more than Individualism

Mises 1

Mises 2

Mises 3

Octobox

Well said, whitewhale

I love this line:

"...if you assume the worst of human nature in your evaluation of a theoretical anarchy, you must hold that assumption constant when evaluating the alternative of the State."

Truth exists, and it deserves to be cherished.

I liked that line as well.

And I've said that myself in several different ways when debating the nature of government with people, as I'm certain so many others who hold views similar to mine have done.

The mechanism of the state is a giant magnet that suck in the sociopaths. Sociopathy is occasionally and unfortunately part of human nature. Why not get rid of their favorite tool and limit the damage those who are sociopaths can do?

anarchy

Private property based on occupancy & use?
Worker Cooperatives? Jewish Kibbutz?
FYI-We already tried woorker cooperatives here in the 1930's
CPUSA started them, they lasted about 5 years. Workers tired of
supporting the no-working.
I thought the dailypaul was a "collectivist free" zone.
I am for ordered liberty, not anarchy!