would socialism or something similar work if....?
I constantly get in debates with friends about health care, taxation, and socialism... I try to understand both sides and think of questions that I normally would not consider asking unless i was on the other side. So here is my question to you
If we got rid of the corruption
had term limits
held politicians accountable
got rid of the government infiltration by the private sector
removed special interests lobbying power
could socialism work?
That is in a voluntary basis as not to infringe on the rights of others,
When we live in a community we agree to pay a certain amount of taxes for roads, bridges, schools, etc.. Is that not socialism? So whats the difference if the country paid taxes (voluntary) so we could have a form of medical care,,, isn't that insurance?
I for one know that power breeds corruption, so I would much rather have the decision making in my hands.
But if the list of things I mentioned above were actually a fact, would tnat form of Socialism be that bad?





















socalism would only work in
socalism would only work in countries like russia china and europe. No good for america
Socialism
1. Socialism is, by definition, coercive. It cannot be "in a voluntary basis". A voluntary, cooperative arrangement is "spontaneous order", not socialism.
2. Central Planning fails because it cannot process all the information required to set market clearing prices (see republic's post below). Irrational prices cause shortages and surpluses as some will be set too low and some will be set too high. Surplusses and shortages are wasted productive effort and a hallmark of centrally planned systems.
http://goldsteinrepublic.com
US Armed Forces is Socialism
Does socialism work? yes. Is that what kind of civilization we want? no.
WE ARE GOING TO WIN!
___.---.___
.' ( ) '.
) /)' '( )
',_( ';-;'\_,'
|-|
(")
It could work if you had a
It could work if you had a market for the socialists to copy, as well as simulated market forces within the system and no printing money to pay for it, although it would still be very inefficient. The problem with socializing in the U.S.A. is that #1 it sets a horrible precedent. Limited Government ideology would die with socialized medicine. #2, Most of the innovation in world medicine comes from the U.S. If we socialized as well, you might see a large drop in innovation.
Ventura 2012
No -- See Mises
In short, no prices means no rational allocation of resources.
http://mises.org/econcalc.asp
Furthermore, introducing the state and its inability to operate as a market participant, (it has no need to make profits, and its starting capital is forcibly extorted from market participants), only leads towards more socialism. Mises, being a minarchist, did not see the incoherency of his belief with his praxeological reasoning.
http://mises.org/midroad.asp
republic
If you can get rid of greed...
I know a lot of Christians are on this site and give all honor and respet to Jesus. From what I have learned, he was a member of the Essenes, a sect of Judaism which was - by our definition - communist.
That is, they lived communally, shared what they had and lived for the benefit of the others. They would prefer to give to others than to receive, and were selflessly devoted to their community and its preservation.
This definition of communism is at odds with what we have come to know as Soviet communism, which is really a form of fascism. That is, a group of rulers (usually self-appointed) insist the common man (the rabble, the proletariat) give up their salaries for 'the greater good.' But the leaders rip the common folk off. We have seen this. The Soviet hierarchy had dachas, servants, good food and wine, and other things unavailable to the working class. They were greedy.
The Essenes, however, were not. They lived by a spiritual rule, and had not interest in exploiting another person. Far from it! It would be sinful to do such things.
So, if you can eliminate greed, you might have a workable communist community, much as Jesus had and advocated.
Essenes NOT communist
Voluntary membership in a cooperative or commune is NOT communism. The halmark of communism is COERCION. Membership is not optional.
I don't recall Jesus saying anything about going out and forcing people to do this or that. For some reason, evangelical nutcases think he did.
"Exploiting" another person by means of voluntary, mutually beneficial exchange is the best thing you can do for him. 'Tis better to be exploited than not. Ask Kathy Lee Gifford's SE Asian children if they would prefer to be 'exploited' in a textile factory to not being 'exploited' and left begging for spare change.
http://goldsteinrepublic.com
It helps if the people are related,clan, tribe, extended family.
People who care about each other can pull it off. People who are strangers have no chance.
Who wants to work their tail off for the welfare state and provide for strangers, strangers who may well be hostile? Not realistic.
The only voluntary socialism that has worked over time,
that I know of, is that practiced by the Hutterian Brethren Church. They wouldn't call it socialism, just practicing Christianity as described in the book of Acts.
They're highly motivated Christians living with close kinfolk in communities of no more than maybe 120 people. They've done this for several hundred years isolating themselves from outsiders. It works for them.
Doing this at a governmental level doesn't work well for ordinary folks. The reason it has existed is because it works very well for the elite in charge. Maintaining control is easier than in a freewheeling society.
Von Mises in the 1920's showed why the Soviet Union would not and could not work for the people as a whole because of the impossibility of economic calculation.
The more socialism in an economy, the less prosperous it becomes.
I wouldn't call that
I wouldn't call that socialism.
Because every single one of them has agreed to give something they have produced to others. This can happen in a free market, and in a prosperous society where free market exists, this can happen rather often.
Socialism instead uses force. It is violence. It does not ask you if you agree to give a bit of your property to someone else.
I guess it depends on how it's defined.
It's communal living or communism as some see it. Everything is owned in common except for some personal things. They think it's the way Christians are suppose to live.
Within the context of a free society it's not a bad way to live. Some however would find it very boring.
Yes* ... Here's How...
100% Voluntary Cooperation is required.
Now live together or run a business together and IF you can all get along no matter the level of skill you all have despite the varying levels of NEED, then you will have created the bestest social experiment that would work and it would Fraking Catch On!
Now Back to reality, which totally freaking sucks.
Ron Paul for Peace!
Probably Not
And here's why.
People are generally rational about things. They will do things that add to their utility. This could be a whole range of things- buying TV's, sitting on the computer all day, working for a cause, seeing the smiles on people's faces after they help them through a difficult situation, etc.
Rational people are constantly, if unknowingly, performing a cost-benefit analysis in their heads. Will I get enough pleasure out of watching this TV that it is worth my time? Maybe not, I would rather mow my lawn and reap the benefits of a tidy yard instead.
Now, how much utility would a rational person get from paying attention to their politicians, reading all the bills before Congress, going to speak with their representatives about important issues? Probably not much. That's because one person can't expect to get much utility out of that, and therefore people do not waste their time learning about politics.
Contrast this with buying a car. People get a LOT of information about a car before they buy it. Why? Because it all pays off- they reap the benefits of doing all that research and work.
But that doesn't work in politics. I as a citizen has no chance of affecting, say, the outcome of whether a bill will be passed or not. So I use up all my energy, and unlike doing research for buying a car, I do all this work and get nothing in return.
In short, people are RATIONALLY IGNORANT about politics.
But not all people.
Some people know a LOT about what's going on. Let's take an example- the CEO of a giant agricultural company. The CEO can expect to gain A LOT from agricultural subsidies if he can get them passed. So he spends his time, his money, his effort, into lobbying congress to get it passed. He puts all this effort in because he can expect to reap the rewards of his work and add to his utility.
Now lets take the random guy on the street. How much do farm subsidies cost him? Comparatively very little. Why bother learning about them/protesting them? Even if he succeeds with his cause, he's saving a couple bucks here and there. But not the agricultural lobby- they stand to get BIG BUCKS from the government, and then invest accordingly.
It is this problem of rational ignorance among the population combined with the concentrated benefits toward lobbyists that makes the system itself less than optimal. Making term limits/ doing a lot of grassroots work may help on the margin
But any time you have concentrated benefits for the few, and spread out costs for the rest, people will act rationally. Those that can get those concentrated benefits do everything they can to get them, and the masses that lose a little bit here and there just don't even bother getting involved.
EDIT: Just to make it clearer how this relates to your question, the idea that the government can ever exist in a way that doesn't favor the few is probably wrong, precisely because of the issue of rational ignorance of the masses.
Dang...
Thanks for that perspective. I love learning from smart people on here.
We need competing governments
We need competing governments so that you can leave governments freely and make your own.
Same idea behind competing currencies.
Essentially no government at all.