The Anarchists want to talk to us,
Submitted by SirFelix on Sun, 09/20/2009 - 20:03
but will they help us?
DP family,
One of our own could use our help.
As most of you already know, Jake Towne is running as a independent for U. S. Congress PA. 15th district.
The Campaign to retake the "Fighting Fifteenth"
Jake needs our help, he would like to raise $1200.00 for yard signs.
This is a humble request and should be easy for us to meet and exceeded.
We need to have a Money Bomb for Jake.
I suggested 9-20.
Give $20.00 on 9-20.
OCTOBOX, and NONE are you listening?
Do you care?
»
PA. just dropped a c note.
PA. just dropped a c note. Good luck
Good people do Good deeds
Good people make it happen
I'm a minarchist now. Didn't you get the memo?
I'm committed to shrinking government to the size it ought to be.
If Jake is prepared to sign a legally binding contract with me that he will not introduce or vote 'Yea' for any new legislation with one exception; that he will actively introduce, sponsor, and vote 'Yea' for proposals which repeal exisiting legislation, I'd be willing to donate money to him.
You don't shrink government by adding to it.
You're a minarchist now?
This is a joke is it not?
Glad to see you back
Glad to see you back posting.
marlow
marlow
Lol
Thx. Hope you guys have been spreading the message of logically-consistent liberty whilst I was away ;-).
reality inconsistent.
reality inconsistent.
Ventura 2012
The appearance
of the illusion.
I'm serious
Really, I believe in using the system against itself and I have a one word solution that will restore liberty for all; REPEALED!
This is where the rubber meets the road my fellow minarchists! Do you want to grow government by adding to it's plethora of code, or do you really want to shrink it? There is only one way to shrink the beast...replace code with one word REPEALED!
It is to this end and by this means alone that I will support minarchy and government will be shrunk to it's rightful size...NONE!
Lol
Thx for clarifying.
---
"A government limited to just protecting your rights is still too big, as it has the power to strip those rights all away!"
Minarchism
A great stop on the road to complete voluntarism
Tell me, why do you favor the violent monopoly of government, even to this small degree? Do you not think that the general public is at least as capable of making choices in their lives as those who would presume to do it for them?
As a minarchist, what violence will you have done to me if I refuse to pay for your 'services' that I don't want?
'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'
'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'
I think None is joking LPviper...
If he's not, I'd like to know why he converted back to statism and archism lol.
There's no going back to seeing violence as a solution
Not for me anyway. I simply had an epiphany regarding minarchists, and I'm trying to help them see the shortcoming in supporting any additional legislation, no matter how well intentioned it may be.
Gotcha
Me comprendé. ;-)
Good to see you back and posting, BTW
And Hola!
What is archism?
Not finding a definition for it
'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'
'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'
Good question!
Archism: the philosophy that one individual (or group) should have the right to rule another individual.
Antonym is anarchism.
Okay that's easy
Nobody has the right to rule anybody else, so anarchism is the correct societal model
'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'
'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'
Yup,
I wonder what the Constitutionalists and (minimal) archists on here have to say about that, lol.
Well, I for one was a staunch Constitutionalist until I 'saw the
light' earlier this summer. I used to revere the founding fathers. I don't anymore, at least 'revere' them. I see them as highly intelligent men, but they were self serving. Those documents were meant for them and them only, not for the rest of us. What a twist!
Well, I think the new twist on this twist is that we make the motion to act 'as if' it were meant for us, at least the Declaration of Independence. The Constitution is great as long as it seriously is set up to protect our sovereign, inherent Rights we incarnated with to do G-d's work, live out our destinies in true service to others~ everything else in my opinion is false reality.
Welcome to the club!
I missed this post before. Welcome to the real world.
A worthy cause
He has a specific intention for that money. Raising money for show has its merits, but I respect that he's only asking for what he needs. I'll donate.
-Now, a little off topic but given the nature of the other comments on this thread, I thought I'd give my two cents while giving my two cents.
(yo dawg?)
I enjoy the anarchy vs constitution debates on DP. none, Devon, octobox, oruval, all the rest, going at it, It's what the political debate should be. Not the tyrannical vs. tyrannical of the false left right paradigm. It's very entertaining and educational. I often find myself ping ponging back and forth on the issue, but the thought occurred to me the other day. Can't anarchy theoretically exist under the constitution? I'm a novice, so take my thoughts with a grain, but couldn't anarchy, or in other words a free society exist under a constitution. It is my belief that in order for a true anarchy to exist it would require a fully educated and informed public who respected other peoples rights. Granting that society could reach that point, wouldn't it be possible for anarchist representatives to be elected who refused to use their power to coerce the people and who worked to to eliminate all forms of government coercion? So the key is education. My biggest problem with anarchy is that society at present, isn't ready for it. I believe absolute freedom is a goal all of us here should be facing towards. It is the direction that we should be heading, perhaps not the final arrival at which we should be demanding, at least not at this point in time unless only to point out that it is the destination. The majority of people are obviously and all but hopelessly not ready. Without an educated society an anarchist system will not work, at least without massive struggle on account of the overwhelming ultra welfare/warfare/statist population. There needs to be a transition period. Right now we can barely hold on to the limited freedoms a constitution is protects let alone a completely free system. I'm in support of the stepping stone theory (if there is such a thing) We need to first educate people enough to at least get back to the constitution, then work our way from there. When the time is right the educated people will support ever more minarchist and then anarchist leaders who will refuse to exercise their power and reduce state power to the levels society will tolerate. After all the constitution does legally allow for changes to be made to reflect the will of the people, if done correctly. Can constitutionalists and anarchists alike agree to work towards a more free society in this manner? I understand the whole voting = abdicating your authority, but wouldn't supporting pro constitutionalist candidates bring us closer to that free society where self abdication is no longer needed. Or does it all have to happen now with no transition? All or nothing? Is it too much for an anarchist to support a Jake Towne or a Peter Schiff even if it means moving in the right direction? Is a constitutional transition to true freedom over a period of time just not feasible? Or not palatable, in preference to an immediacy?
Poq: I agree in part
I'll focus on where we are agreeing.
Yes. Anarchy can exist under a Constitution.
As long as that Constitution was re-written every day, smile. Also, it could not create any laws or place any taxes on any individual.
In the "present tense" we are always in "anarchy" -- We tax the past and future.
Gov't is only ever interested in "helping" or "destroying" the past or the future.
FEMA -- Reactionary
CIA -- Reactionary and Preventative (in regard to the latter, "who knows what?")
FBI -- Reactionary
EMTs -- Reactionary
Cops -- Reactionary
Nothing "prevents" (in the present) anything from happening -- it's all red lights at 3am in the present. When no ones around observing, who keeps to the code?
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
hmm
I gather from that, your saying that the constitution is pretty much a toothless document, (unable to prevent violation) and therefore a constitutional government would appear to be pointless and futile. Whereas a form of government that did have the necessary teeth to prevent violation would be insufferable to live under. Hence no government would be the more tolerable conclusion?
Poq: Ultimately in the "present tense"
We are living in an anarchy -- at all times in the present tense.
Gov't never solves or prevents in the present tense.
It is reactionary.
The question becomes can the market replace "reactionary" models better than the Gov't Monopoly?
In the long-run yes.
In the short-run (20yrs or so) probably not -- mostly referring to Naval, Army, and Air Force Arsenal -AND- Search and Rescue.
That being said we'll need a Constitutional Consumer-Minarchism that eliminates the abdicating capability of our present Constitution.
#1 1-Term Naval Meritocracy (central gov't)
#2 1-Term Army-Air Meritocracy (state gov't)
#3 Zero Taxing Authority
#4 Zero Regulatory Authority
#5 Zero Foreign Intervention / Militarism
#6 Zero Judicial Authority
#7 Zero Currency Authority
#8 Zero Debt Accrual Authority
#9 Budgets and Incentives for central and state gov't are paid for by national and state sales tax -- the ONLY type of tax allowed.
#10 A Voting Pool of Experts Decides.
Obviously there needs to be more than that, but you get the idea.
That type of Constitution given all the ZEROs (and properly spelled out) eliminates voting / lobbying -OR- perpetual war (revolution).
As long as the Constitution does not allow people to abdicate self-rule or steal the self-rule of another -AND- as long as that Constitution does not allow Worker's Rights (laws) or Owner's Rights (laws) -- there will be relative peace.
Eventually the world would mature (with America behaving in the above manner) and we might be able to move into a Consumer-Individualist Society (or Anarchy), but now without a healthy transition.
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Let me see if I've got the
Let me see if I've got the basic idea, forgive the simplification
-National run navy, state run army-air force
-National-State Sales tax
-The people are left to their own market based solutions for everything else
-Not quite clear on #10,
Help me understand your solution, see if it's something I can get behind. Here are some questions that come to mind:
1. What is the pool of experts? Who are they? what do they vote on? Who decides the makeup of the pool and how?
2. Define Meritocracy
3. Is this form of government assuming everyone is a willing participant?
4. Is this form of government retaining any vestige of the original constitution or previous laws or is it assuming a clean slate?
5. Are local communities allowed to establish their own laws?
6. Similarly, will people be able to freely abdicate their authority to others to set up their own private internal governments or kingdoms? Would armies be used to prevent or crush such free association?
7. How would sales tax be enforced? Is it voluntary?
8. How are rights protected? Would they even be assumed? Would they exist only as far as you yourself could protect them?
9. If disputes between individuals are not able to be resolved and no arbiter can be found, what is the next step to ensure that peace is maintained and justice served? Are matters to be taken into their own hands?
10. Can this government ONLY exist in a society that understood and respected peoples rights, or is it able to also address trouble makers and criminals?
Poq: My 360 Word Constitution -- 360 Consumer-Minarchism
Central Gov't
#1 "The Zeros"
ZERO Tax Authority (on any individual or group)
ZERO Currency Authority (100% freemarket money / coinage / credit)
ZERO Regulatory Authority (100% Consumer Sovereignty)
ZERO Judicial Authority
ZERO Lobbying
ZERO Foreign Debt Accrual
#2 Central Gov't shall be a 24Team Naval Meritocracy
The 24Team will be hired owing to resume, education, and business plan presentation. They will be hired by a revolving panel of experts who are pooled from 4,000 or more such experts in the fields of: weaponology, bidding analysis, contract analysis, accounting, efficiency experts, oceanography, and military strategy.
This team will be paid from the remainder of their budget (unused). A very opensource (for all to view) rubric will be used and a public auditing to factor their incentives based on: antipirate record (safeguarding our ships and ports), noninternational water violations, communication improvements, weaponology improvement, search and rescue, cost accounting, contract bid analysis, efficiency improvement, etc.
They will hire "employees" from the freelabor pool on a contractual basis.
1% National Sales Tax (cover budget and incentive plan)
One 6-year Term
State Gov't
#1 "The Zeros"
ZERO Tax Authority (on any individual or group)
ZERO Currency Authority (100% freemarket money / coinage / credit)
ZERO Regulatory Authority (100% Consumer Sovereignty)
ZERO Judicial Authority
ZERO Lobbying
ZERO Foreign Debt Accrual
#2 State Gov't shall be a 24Team Army and Air Guard Meritocracy
Search and Rescue (disasters only) and Border Patrol
Logically Similar Rubric (to assess incentive merit)
Logically Similar Hiring "board of experts"
3% State Sales Tax (for budget and incentives)
ONE 6year Term
GAO (Gov't Accounting Office)
#1 "The Zeros"
ZERO Tax Authority (on any individual or group foreign or domestic)
ZERO Currency Authority (100% freemarket money / coinage / credit)
ZERO Regulatory Authority (100% Consumer Sovereignty)
ZERO Judicial Authority
ZERO Lobbying
ZERO Foreign Debt Accrual
#2 The GAO shall be a 24Team Foreign Debt Meritocracy
One job "Pay off all Foreign Debt
Logically Similar Rubric (to assess incentive merit)
Logically Similar Hiring "board of experts"
3% Nation Sales Tax (for budget and incentives)
This is a temporary dept until all debt is paid
-----------------------
Probably pay off all foreign debt in 6 - 12 years
It's a 93% Tax Free Society -- So, it requires 7% Abdication
Currently we live in a 80-90% Tax-Theft Society -- So, it requires 90% Abdication.
Minarchism requires "some" Gov't
This is a transitionary model (thus temporary).
A Meritocracy exists outside the control of the people -- It's the only form of leadership that can have REAL WORLD restrictions put against it -- Because there is ZERO Voting / Lobbying.
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
SirFelix: How did my name wind up on your thread, hahaha
I'm honored ;-)
First Off -- I'm a Transitionary Consumer-Minarchist -- which means we go from Corporatist to RP's Minarchist, to my Consumer-Minarchism, then when we are "mature" enough into Consumer-Individualism (which Mises supported).
Minarchism is not a "fixed" gov't model. It either moves left (toward big gov't) or toward Individualism (anarchy) to the right.
You can't hold "taxation" fixed -- it either grows or lessens.
We determine "grows" in terms of "real" dollars not nominal. In terms of real price inflation not nominal.
That's gor giving me a floor.
No I wont give any money to inflate the Politicial Profit Drivers.
I give to Ron Paul and Rand -- that's it.
I beleive there needs to always be an "educator" in office -- one is enough.
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
"Minarchism is not a "fixed"
"Minarchism is not a "fixed" gov't model. It either moves left (toward big gov't) or toward Individualism (anarchy) to the right."
Evidence? For example, we saw examples of more individualism with the destruction of the central bank by Jackson, Judicial application of due process to the states in the 20th century, and welfare reform, while the general trend has been towards a bigger government. However, who is to say that we can't draw a line in the sand and basically hover around it?
Ventura 2012
Bmore: The same reason why the market is a better predictor
than the Keynesian Gov't is in regard to prices.
They would need to #1 predict where price, quality, and demand are perfectly maximized -- which is a Keynesian Misnomer.
They would need to #2 be "humble" enough to enact policies for the higher good and ignore the true "profit driver" in politics (The Business Cycle) -or- Oscillations.
The Minarchism would #3 need to be profitable (politically) toward free-markets rather than lobbying and fed fiat.
#1 and #2 are un-imaginable in a Capitalist-Minarchism.
And well #3 is obvious.
A Consumer-Minarchism like I suggest would move slowly towards Consumer-Individualism -- the pace would be slow and so you would have the "illusion" of static that you'd personally like (based on your comment), but ultimately politics either leads toward Greater Abdication or Greater Self-Rule; and you couldn't show me an example of where this is not true.
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
The fact that the market is
The fact that the market is better than government at growing the economy has not trended towards anarchy. It has at best given us a cyclical government, although we cant be sure since there has only really been one trial in world history. It really remains to be seen where we go from the collapse of the current system. If we educate enough people, it could be minarchism. If we don't, we could have totalitarianism or feudalism.
Ventura 2012