Debating with a neocon
Any of you want to offer some rebuttal points? I getting tired of spinning in circles with this guy.
"It's been the same old SAME OLD ever since Ike.
Obama promised he had a plan and was going to pull all of our troops out of both Iraq and Afghanistan. and now, like Bush, Obama is increasing our presence in both countries with absolutely no plan to get us back out. Obama is now saying it is going to take 10 years.
10 YEARS that is 6 years longer then his presidency. I know how to get the job done right and still get our people back out by Christmas 2009.
Oh yeah, I am a highly decorated Vietnam Combat Vet who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.
Ever since we invaded Afghanistan I have been saying that it should have been a very simple in and back out operation. This keeping troops on the ground indefinitely is achieving nothing towards stopping the Muslims war against us.
We need to get out and move on to our next target. Iran, Syria, Liberia, etc until the Muslims have lost all of their leaders and the will to continue fighting THEIR ridicules war. "
Thats right, My hero said just bring the troops home!
Who can stifle the serene intellect radiating from a master of thought who persistently enlightens an ignorant world?
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of The United States of America and to The Republic for which it stands. One Nation FREE AND INDEPENDENT with LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of The United States of America and to The Republic for which it stands. Fifty states FREE AND INDEPENDENT with LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!
It sounds like you are on the same side.
You just object to the country the war needs to be in. Or should I say occupation. What do these occupations really accomplish? And how do you know when a war of a thing (like war on drugs, still going on) is won?
We don't need to be over there period. Taliban and Alqida were created by the CIA. It's a fact. And even if they weren't, we still do not need to be there. How about watching our own borders?
Terror is a Tactic, not a
Terror is a Tactic, not a definable enemy. If we cannot identify our enemy how can we win?
Warfare is 100% welfare cost on our Society. Stop growing the welfare state/ stop growing the government.
Stop putting faith in Government. Government cannot eliminate evil.
We isolate ourselves from being able to Travel, trade and perform commerce with others when we use force on them.
Christ was the price of peace not the prince of kick ass.
Obama agrees with "you" Neo-Cons as he has added troops 21,000+ Troops in Afghanistan and passed the largest military appropriations spending bill in US History for 09-10 and has expanded the war to Pakistan dropping bombs daily with Drones -- Keep putting faith in Pelosi and McCain to protect you and see how far that gets you. :)
Israel is not the 51st state of our Nation. -- They deserve no Welfare from American tax payers like everyone other nation.
Some that come to mind :)
Patriot4Liberty1776
Patriot4Liberty1776
Liberia?
Liberia?
Monrovia here we come! lol
j/k
I'm thinking they meant Libya.
Ask "What about Saudi Arabia?"
That's where the 9-11 gang was from.
Explore Orthodox Christianity
i nailed him with that
one.
"The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional"
Ron Paul
Explain: Radical Muslims
Explain:
Radical Muslims attacked us on 9/11.
George Bush attacked a moderate Muslim country.
George Bush left the southern border wide open to radical Muslims.
George Bush didnt go to war to fight terrorism.
Stop falling for the arguments of a man who doesn't care about terrorism.
Ventura 2012
Don't spin in circles
Why do you see it as necessary to try to convince one neo-con? It just won't happen. I think you are better off putting your energies into something more positive and constructive.
I don't know what that is, but debating or arguing with a neo-con is a no-win situation.
I see it as necessary to be able to
rationally and calmly explain the issues to any that will listen. This guy is my practice puppet.
"The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional"
Ron Paul
That is your right.
If you want to run in circles, that's your business. Good luck to you. But I think you will eventually grow weary of it, and find something to do that really gives you a sense of accomplishment.
Might be worthwhile to hook up with other like-minded people and THEN take on the neocons together. Putting yourself out there alone is asking for disappointment. Just my opinion. You do what you like.
They Thought They Were Free~Milton Meyer
*** There comes a time when you have no more time to try and convince some types of people and your time is better spent on more productive matters!
They Thought They Were Free
The Germans, 1933-45
Milton Mayer
"You know," he went on, "when men who understand what is happening--the motion, that is, of history, not the reports of single events or developments--when such men do not object or protest, men who do not understand cannot be expected to. How many men would you say understand--in this sense--in America? And when, as the motion of history accelerates and those who don't understand are crazed by fear, as our people were, and made into a great 'patriotic' mob, will they understand then, when they did not before?
"We learned here--I say this freely--to give up trying to make them understand after, oh, the end of 1938, after the night of the synagogue burning and the things that followed it. Even before the war began, men who were teachers, men whose faith in teaching was their whole faith, gave up, seeing that there was no comprehension, no capacity left for comprehension, and the thing must go its course, taking first its victims, then its architects, and then the rest of us to destruction. ..."
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html
*****
"I think we are living in a world of lies: lies that don't even know they are lies, because they are the children and grandchildren of lies." ~ Chris Floyd
"I think we are living in a world of lies: lies that don't even know they are lies, because they are the children and grandchildren of lies." ~ Chris Floyd
understood
LB.
"The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional"
Ron Paul
rocketman..good! I am glad that
exerpt made the point! Now since I have your attention you should also read about "personality types" ...when I read this just a year ago it frightened me at first but then I felt more calm when I thought about it..you have to know the different types of people and why they "just don't get it."
The Authoritarians by Bob Altmeyer
OK, what’s this book about? It’s about what happened to the American government after "conservatives" gained control of Congress in the 1990s and the White House in 2000. It’s about the disastrous decisions that government made, which have created the enormous problems we face now. It’s about the corruption that rotted the Congress. It’s about how traditional conservatism has nearly been destroyed by authoritarianism. It’s about how the “Religious Right” teamed up with amoral authoritarian leaders to push its un-democratic agenda onto the country.
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
*****
"I think we are living in a world of lies: lies that don't even know they are lies, because they are the children and grandchildren of lies." ~ Chris Floyd
"I think we are living in a world of lies: lies that don't even know they are lies, because they are the children and grandchildren of lies." ~ Chris Floyd
Is this a real debate before
Is this a real debate before an audience, with debate rules, or is it an argument?
You cannot win an argument.
i wouldn't know the first thing about debate rules
i just call it that to try and limit myself to rational, factual discussion. as you will see, i fail miserably and resort to arguing.
"The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional"
Ron Paul
Wonderful
It takes the bravest of people to say they failed miserably. Actually, you didn't fail at all. You just found a way that wasn't effective. Keep at it, and you may prevail.
It is always tiresome, but still , I kind of enjoy it...
/Mike
Front Fell Off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcU4t6zRAKg
/Mike
Front Fell Off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcU4t6zRAKg
i think i used to bang my head against a wall
when i was a kid.
"The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional"
Ron Paul
I can tell
... by your posts! Ha ha.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
guilty by birth
aries.
"The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional"
Ron Paul
Get them angry
Say stuff like Bush is a much greater threat than Bin Laden. I like to tell them that we can lower the color coded alert system now that Bush is finally gone to a low level alert again.
Or tell them you hope McCain and the neocons fail. This is a play off senator Reid only it's not aimed at the troops but at the neoconservatives instead.
All they will do is throw bull about Ron Paul being a truther or something stupid so there is no point actually debating them anyway. Or they bring up those old memos that weren't him or some other racist charge. As soon as they do that, just start throwing bombs back because you can't reason with them.
Just change the subject and start throwing bombs back at them.
Or ask why CRAZY John McCain IS STILL TELLING THE MEDIA THAT IRAQ WAS A GOOD IDEA. How can he be saying that?
John McCain says Iraq was stilla really good idea.
What kind of idiot thinks that Iraq was a good idea at this point?
I used to use this tatic as well but it only escalated the
yelling. I tend to use analogies anymore to make them think. My brother was a neocon, 47 years old. He was what I used to call him, a closet Paulite. He is now a Paulite. Like most necons they are bent on warfare. My bro agreed with as much Ron Paul as any on this forum, except for warfare. I finally turned him with a conversation that went something like this:
Me: I want to buy 140 pitbulls.
Him: Why
I am going to go to 140 homes in a 5 mile radius of my house and put one in each backyard.
Why? Okay, blah blah blah
No, seriously, I want to protect my house and my family from criminals.
Yeah, okay, right and what if they say F you? I see where you're going with this, I think.
If they don't put the dog in the yard and feed it and walk it and take it to the vet when it needs to, I'll just burn their house down and put the dog next door.
It went on a few moments more but he understood what I meant and we discussed the trillions used to keep the war machine going and how we could use that money at home and use the military at home and their income would fuel our economy, etc.
Anyway, I told him to read about the fed and gave him a copy of The Revolution a Manifesto and now we have great conversations.
I like the pitbull
analogy.......
Colchester, New London County, Connecticut
that was my old style
which is cool for forums. i tend to fall into that groove when i debate people in real life, like with my family, friends and associates, which doesn't exactly win them over. sometimes i wonder why i bother.
"The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional"
Ron Paul
Radical rhetoric
One was asking me yesterday about how we could get to enough troops by using a draft so we could attack Iran. He wanted Hillary and Raham and Obama to embrace a draft so that we could get enough troops.
So I told him that michelle Obama needs to keep a tight leash on Hillary because she is the hawk. Then I told the guy that Bill Ayers helped write Obama's book, and he ran an anti-conscription movement in the 60's so I though some of his good anti-government instincts would rub off on Obama.
The guy freaked out. I love doing that.
i will keep the ayres
angle for later use, thanks.
"The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional"
Ron Paul
You can't
that is a very dangerous line of thinking and unfortunately, I know many people who agree with the full spectrum dominance / foreign expantionist method. It's almost useless, it's been fed to him by the media and you can;t really expect much else. You just need to hammer home that it is unsustainable financially, creating more enemies and is getting our sons and daughters killed in the name of foreign dominance.
I think Ron Paul said it recently (maybe the townhall with Bachman)
interpretation of the quote I heard:
By killing innocent civilians in our bombing efforts, we are creating many more enemies of the United States, the families of those killed are now religiously responsible to carry out attacks against Americans.
This is the same type of person that on 9-11 started throwing racial slurs at anyone that looked middle eastern. I feel bad for the guy.
you're probably right, and after repeated circles i lose my cool
which results in disjointed, emotional responses. not very helpful. i'm trying to learn to debate without anger, but that is a tough skill to learn. my exasperated response:
why are we in afghanistan again? why are we intent on taking over the middle east? unless you intend to eliminate all muslims your plan is only going to solidify them against us. what part of them not wanting foreign troops on their soil is ridiculous? will it take foreign troops on our soil before we understand what should be a simple concept for any man to grasp? what part of not being forced to accept our worthless paper money is ridiculous? irans oil has been providing artificial value for our money for a few decades now. why would they want to receive payment that is worth less by the time they spend it then it is when they accepted it? how come every other country, china, russia, iran, iraq get it but americans don't? do we really believe all the damn lawyers we have elected in washington are any less slimy than any other lawyer? they are destroying our reputation and our currency and we are defending them. what is RIGHTEOUS about CREATING WEALTH WITH A PRINTING PRESS?
"The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional"
Ron Paul
Have him look up what Jingoism means
I think you're all over the place, not to me, but to him. I follow your line of thinking 100%, but he sees flaws in the opening statement, therefore everything else is nonsense to him.
Simply ask him this, "Is it worth American lives to control third world countries that will never be a threat to us or any of our friends?"
If he answers with "Yes" then you need to tell him to rethink what life means, it is not worthless, and these soldiers have mothers and fathers, wives and husbands, children and communities that depend on and love them. Then, walk away and hope he considers that his position is dangerous. If not, move on, the person has a mental block.