Are some Paul supporters hurting the cause?
In Paul's rise from relative obscurity to a national phenomenon he has garnered a tremendous following with a growing list of many dedicated supporters. In addition, there exists a certain percentage whose contributions have gone far and above the call of duty, Nystrom being in that lot.
However, there is another percentage that I wish to address. That group that rides with the pack but their actions hinder as much or more than they help. I sometimes wonder why they act the way they do.
In following some of the media that Paul and his message generate, I have read a lot of commentary lately that is well thought out and offers engaging ideas. However, there are many Paul supporters who too often leave statements that make me cringe.
I personally endeavor to offer up commentary with ideas that are formulated and have impact yet do it with some level of civility - no how fervent I feel about the topic. Again, often while attempting to do this I read comments along side of mine that call the author names, absolutely deride him or her and in all honestly makes Paul supporters look simple minded.
As we support the concept of liberty and free speech each should be allowed to do as they feel - to a point. One's liberty should reach to the extent that you are not unjustifiable hurting another in your actions. The first amendment does not preclude civility toward other human beings no matter how wrong one may feel they are.
We need to demand of each other the highest level of civility as we work to dismantle the status quo. If you need to call out what someone is doing, a little wit and a lot of tact go a long way. To do anything else only hurts the efforts we are all engaging in.
I know that the oppression we are currently seeing can make people desperate to have their communication heard. It can likewise make them bristle at the notion of any invalidation of what they consider to be honest and correct. I can truly see this and there are times when you have to shout to be heard above the wind.
However, there exists a basic in all human conduct and that is the need to feel right. No one, and I mean no one likes to be wrong and everyone feels in some way that what they are doing is the right thing. Even figures like Napoleon thought they were doing the right thing albeit for the wrong reasons. We can see this not only in our real or imagined enemies but in ourselves as well.
Have we ever seen a person vehemently scolded then turn around and say, "gee, I was wrong, thanks for pointing that out". Only at the moment when that individual becomes a shaking apathetic twig will you ever hear those words uttered.
True, wrongness does have to be taken up and pointed out, especially under more stressing situations, but I feel the manner in which we do it can propel or hinder the message.
Dr Paul is extremely good at this. He can call someone on the carpet without having to dismantle the person as an individual.
Please do not misunderstand my statements. I don't mean everyone has to be everyone's best friend and there is a lot of truth in not trusting certain people. The problem is that too often people get lumped into groups and everyone in that group is identified as the same type of person. Black and white thinking. I am positive some neo-cons can be turned into traditional conservatives. Again, not all but some.
We must not isolate those that can be reached.
Diversity is welcome
As long as we learn to know and live with the disagreements. No one will have any objection to anyone saying they disagree with some of his positions but support him anyway as you will never find any politician with whom you agree 100% with. Ron Paul appeals to fiscal conservatives and anti-war liberals who know exactly why they support him.
The problem with the truthers is they assume and insist that he is one among them. How can anyone term it diversity when some people say exactly the OPPOSITE of what Ron says? How can they lie about Ron's position on the 9 11 attacks? I have a serious problem when someone carries a Ron Paul sign and screams "9 11 was an inside job" or insinuates something similar. That is not diversity. Joining the movement and saying something opposite of Ron's stated position - That is FRAUD. So that is the reason why truthers should leave the Ron Paul movement and not hurt him and his cause.
There is
no problem with "truthers," only with the term which is an epithet. Ad hominem is not reasoned argument.
I am unaware of Ron Paul ever coming out against 9/11 truth. I and many others learned about Paul through Alex Jones. RP still appears regularly on Jones' show. Jones is the unofficial leader of the 9/11 Truth movement. Oops! So RP already associates with truthers, in fact with their grand leader.
During the campaign, some of the We Are Change people had Paul saying that he does support a new investigation and that there are unanswered questions. When Paul was asked recently why he doesn't initiate a new investigation into 9/11 and openly support the truth about 9/11, he pointedly did not correct the questioner's premise that the official version is a lie, but rather seemed to tacitly support it. He merely provided the politically pragmatic answer that he is too busy with End the Fed and that opening that question now would have too many political ramifications for his other efforts. Now to me it sounds like he knows, but doesn't want to go there, which is different than him being like a Hannity or a Beck who are gatekeeper propagandists for the official story.
Finally, the very nature of this endeavor to cleanse the Daily Paul of topics considered taboo by the Establishment is offensive. You wonder why people say you are trolls, when you go through like little Glenn Becks telling people what they may or may not say. Uh, who exactly appointed you gatekeeper? You are outraged by the beliefs of thinking Americans. That's too bad. I am outraged by people who stubbornly refuse to think and place an inordinate trust in government, authority, and official pronouncements of the Military Industrial and Media complex and then call it patriotism.
Classic Example of a lie
"I know what Ron Paul thinks". "He doesnt deny it, so I am a mind reader and I know he is a truther". He has repeated denied these conspiracy therioes and called these theories "bizarre" and "preposterous" (Glenn Beck interview, Fox New Debate).
Basically, you are saying Ron is a liar. You base an entire movement on this lie. Ron Paul goes on Fox, MSNBC, Glenn Beck radio, Bloomberg and even Russian Television. So does he associate himself with all of these people? How can that be possible? Your logic is foolish.
So anyone who does not support your nutty belief is a little Glenn Beck? Another nonsense.
I am not questioning your views about 9 11 attacks. You can say whatever you want. Why do you present this as Ron Paul's beliefs? That is FRAUD and you are a LIAR. He has never said so. Show me one proof (not your foolish mind reading) that Ron is a truther. If he does believe in 911 conspiracies, I will support your view fully.
Please try and keep your wits about you.
I do not know what RP thinks and did not make that claim. I merely stated an opinion, which used to be OK in America. Oh right it still is.
You are just like Beck who is a vociferous gatekeeper for the official story. You are like him in at least that respect.
RP has more than a casual association with Jones. Without Jones' help, we probably wouldn't being talking about RP now. Again, that is an opinion. This is a forum of opinion. Do you get that?
"Nutty belief?" Again with the name calling. Very low and very Glenn Beck. Moreover, I have not stated any specific beliefs about 9/11.
I would be interested in knowing Paul's beliefs on this subject, but it would not affect my beliefs and those in the intelligence services around the world who claim to know differently than the official story.
Finally, I want those who read this post to know that it is 2:09 PST (I'm a night owl) and immediately after I posted my reply, this person responded and my ability to edit the post was blocked. I guess someone else is night owl too, huh?
I do have to go to bed and can't keep responding. I am a regular person and am not sitting in some dark room underground in a cubicle conducting information warfare on blogs.
Stop your childish conspiracy theories
" I want those who read this post to know that it is 2:09 PST (I'm a night owl) and immediately after I posted my reply, this person responded and my ability to edit the post was blocked..."
I did nothing to block your post nor do I know how to do it. This is a classic example of a truther. Just assume something without any basis and call momma for help.
I am not an official gatekeeper of government or anyone. I am just a normal person who can see what is happening and you are just a nut.
If you can call me someone "sitting in some dark room underground in a cubicle conducting information warfare on blogs", then I can certainly call you a nut, because all truthers are.
All I can say to this post is....
The truth will set us free. We the American people have not been given the truth. If you dear poster think we have, you are as blind as most Americans. If an honest survey was to be taken globally regarding the things that have happened in the USA, you would find that most Americans have been duped into believing what our bias media wants us to believe. I seriously doubt a survey such as that will happen, but if you open yourself up to other nations, and people from other countries you will find that they have a totally different opinion, or take on an issue than what most Americans have. Do it for yourself, research it, you will find a different story. If you have access to facebook, or myspace, and inter-mingle with people from other countries ask them questions about 911, ask them questions regarding our government, ask them questions about the wars we have been in. I bet you will get a much different response than you get from the American public, or friends you have here in the states. Americans do not realize how badly the USA is thought of in other nations around the world.
forgot to mention
How I appreciate you posting this today.
it's a big news day, and it's good to have sensible posts up front.
"I don't endorse anything they say"
~Ron Paul On the 911 Truth movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGyhlNY0y1k
With liberty comes responsibility
That's what the nutcases ignore.
"Wah wah wah stop infringing on my freedom! Who are you to tell me not to talk about aliens blowing up the towers with chemtrails made of colloidal silver?! Disinfo paid NWO shill!" they scream.
No one is trying silence you. No one is playing "thought police." People are just asking that we focus on the message. I wouldn't like it if you came to my PTA meeting naked in some sort of protest against societal norms, as it would be the wrong forum.
Frankly, people who use the Daily Paul to publicize the Alex Jones stuff are in the wrong forum, too. They're movement hijackers. They can talk about the freedom of ideas all they want, and throw out Michael Nystrom's (misguided) decision to permit such topics all they want. They ignore REALITY:
If they think their behavior isn't scaring away potential allies...
If they think their behavior isn't burning out existing allies...
If they think the FREEDOM to hijack the movement means it's the RESPONSIBLE, CONSIDERATE, DISCIPLINED thing to do...
...then, they lack either...
...the sanity to distinguish reality.
...the common sense to be effective activists.
...or the morality to be good libertarians.
QED
Protections for anonymous speech are vital to democratic discourse. Allowing dissenters to shield their identities frees them to express critical, minority views...Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. - SCotUS, 1995
You talk about responsibility...
...Yet I don't see a post of yours in this thread that is not antagonistic and peppered with namecalling and/or insults.
You came into this thread that is supposed to be about civility and started swinging from your first post below. You have used your collectivist brush to paint people into groups, labeling them and marginalizing them.
Just because you do not see the relevance of some topics does not mean they are not relevant.
You say no one is trying to silence anyone, yet you stomp your feet and demand separation in your comment below.
You have even gone so far as to suggest below that the owner of this site, who allows discussion of topics that you don't care for, does so so he can get more donations.
You act like this and YOU want to tell others about responsibility?
As I tried to tell you below, if your posts in this thread are any indication of how you communicate elsewhere, I seriously doubt that chemtrail and 9/11 people are to blame for the difficulty you have in winning people over.
WCU4Paul, you do not have to sow the nasty, hateful seeds you are sowing.
You're so right.
Isn't it ironic that a thread posing as advocatng (phony) civilty is populated by apparent trolls calling people names? Let me see else who does that? Oh right, the people on the Left and in the MSM.
Also, JC, yours is the only handle I recognize here.
nutcases?
I guess I look at it this way Ron Paul is the only politician I agree with 100%...I've never heard him lie, be disingenuous, waffle around an answer, or in any way show that his loyalties lie anywhere but with the American people and the Constitution. I'm amazed that not every single American supports this guy(even the crazies and the 'nutcases'). I guess I don't really care that some nutjob supports Ron Paul because I just expect everyone to support Ron Paul.
No is the answer to the OP's question.
Why would I think that? Well I have not seen a more racist or ignorant crowd than the supporters of Barrack Obama...and he got elected. So obviously more supporters can't hurt a cause...even if those supporters are ignorant racist tools that don't know how to respect another's individual rights.
Every cause has supporters who hurt the cause.
Nothing new or profound about that.
pretty much sums it up. With
pretty much sums it up.
With the internet being what it is, I'm confident that there are people intentionally trying to damage momentum any way possible.
Like the guy who said he wanted to ask "a" question, then went on a 20 paragraph attack of Rand Paul, stating that he was a free mason, and will "throw" the election.
That guy is a real piece of work, and I wouldn't have any problems hurting him.
No one is hurting the cause!!
even when I was drunk I was converting so many people police nurses actually I converted more people to Ron Paul ideas of Liberty when drunk and not sober!! but I had to admit to being drunk and be very polite and listening to arguments...I have a perfect God made liver.
________________________________________
Deficits mean future tax increases, pure and simple. Deficit spending should be viewed as a tax on future generations, and politicians who create deficits should be exposed as tax hikers.
-- Ron Paul
Website:
http://www.libertypoet.com/
Twitter:
http://twitter.com/LibertyPoet
"How can we justify to the unemployed and underemployed in the United States the incredible cost of maintaining a global empire?" - Dr. Ron Paul
Mmmmmmm....
Cheers!
Here we go again,another "newbee" who has been "cringed"
after 4 days here. Let the games begin-----I`ll pass on this one.
"We have to spend money to keep from going bankrupt"
Joseph Biden VP , USA
"Since 1789 the only government on Earth that has the power to crush the American people`s liberties across the board is the government of the United States"
Robert Higgs
You are mistaken
Just because I only decided to leave commentary 4 days ago on Daily Paul does not mean I am new to Paul's campaign.
This is exactly what I find. Often statements are made in the heat of reading some commentary. The communication comes across reactionary and is often full of assumptions.
Right.
How dare anyone be new here.
who cares if he's new. he
who cares if he's new. he could get to the point a little quicker.
are there people hurting the momentum. in 3 sentences, describe these individuals, and quantify their damage.
That was my point- who cares if he's new
I was being ironic. I don't understand your second paragraph.
Excellent points.
There are many in this movement that share your concerns.
Do not despair.
There is a solution, even for forums like the DailyPaul.
It is called "Assortative environments" by the founder of this website:
http://environmentparty.org/node/26
Its hard to describe but is a truly ingenious and novel way to construct a forum.
******************************
An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.
Natural Law and Natural Rights
http://jim.com/rights.html
******************************
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive."
BOTTOM LINE!
This all sounds like INFINITE rationalization to justify where on the truth scale each of us finds ourselves - EVEN THOUGH we're fighting for the same cause of Liberty...the BOTTOM LINE is generations of Ecclesiastical Tyranny have torn out the very concept that PURE EVIL is born from the father of lies...and no sinful human being wants to admit they need God's forgiveness for going their own way and rebelling against Him personally, nor are they willing to admit He has been turning on the heat in America to communicate His absolute INTOLERANCE for the perpetual rejection of His Laws that are meant to govern us FIRST!
Satan is evil, the lies are REAL, and death to ALL humanity is his goal...and he masquerades as an angel of light - but Americans have chosen to rip that part of their Bible out merely for the LOVE of money.
Now we are reaping what we have sown...kicking and screaming all the way...as God has taken down the hedge that once protected this nation because our founders, and their successors for a time were God-fearing.
The rumor is "every man has his price" - Evolution Theory was a test from God - men chose to become wealthy off it!
The Central Bank was a TEST from God - men chose to become wealthy off it!
The Patriot movement is a TEST to see if we will REPENT and go back to becoming a God-fearing people once again; so far, it looks like He is going to have to ALLOW evil to triumph and those given over to fables and the reprobate mind to be PURGED.
God wasn't happy when He flooded the whole planet some 4400 years ago, and killed every last inhabitant save 8 people - this nation doesn't HAVE to go into captivity to the New World Order - but it will, if we don't petition the Creator like our founders did.
What did the first provincial congress DO after word of the Boston Massacre got to them? Make a foul-language ridden You Tube video?
Or did they read Psalm 35, and get on their KNEES is prayer!
The 56 signers weren't proud, arrogant, boastful fools parading their INTELLECT against the Crown when they signed their own Death Warrants - they were HUMBLE!
www.wearechangemichigan.org
http://elmhurst4ronpaul.com
http://trustronpaul.com
I like pepperoni pizza with mushrooms
I think it's manna from heaven, or at least Italy.
But I don't eat it for breakfast lunch and dinner.
And I don't walk around with a piece in my pocket, forcing people to eat it.
I also REALLY appreciate it when an Obama ssupporter, or a Neo-con acts like a jerk towards others. It belittles them in my mind. And it proves to me why I've chosen Ron Paul as my humble spokesman.
When we win this thing, I can only hope that unleashing Liberty on the masses, doesn't become an excuse for those same people to treat each other like jerks. The new law of the land should be respect for your fellow human being. It should be enforced by the individual. That's freedom too.
"I don't endorse anything they say"
~Ron Paul On the 911 Truth movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGyhlNY0y1k
Cannot be said any better
Cannot be said any better than this.
The first 5 million supporters of Dr. Paul are 'early adopters.' The next 10 million will require a modified approach.
Yes, I agree
that Ron Paul's behavior, demeanor, humility, and reasoned, educated thoughtfulness and logic is the model that many of his supporters ought to examine and adopt.
I'm not holding my breath on that one, though.
every movement that has ever
every movement that has ever been made has people who help it and people who hurt it, get over it. There are people for obama who hurt his cause and there are people for him who help his cause. Its the same for everything.
What should I be getting over?
Just because other groups have their malcontents means I have to put up with mine? No, I don't agree.
I will tell you a story.
I was a cub scout leader for a few years. One of the premises of scouting is teaching civility. I had a boy in my den who was extremely disruptive. I am considered extremely patient but this boy was trying.
I finally told the pack leader that I felt cub scouts was not for the him and his presence was hard on the other boys. The leader didn't agree and although she acknowledged some of my qualities, she decided that the boy could be helped with our program and insisted he stay. After another few months the disruptive boys father complained to the leader that I wasn't handling his son correctly - this despite numerous hours spent trying to help him.
I decided that was it and left the pack. After I left, the den that the boy had been a part of was taken over by someone else. I just found out recently that the den was basically disbanded as other boys had left the pack as well.
All because the one child was in essence, allowed to do what he wanted.
lovely story. but it's not
lovely story. but it's not relevant. i'm sure you find it relevant. but it isn't.
you don't want to put up with malcontents? i didn't notice a problem with malcontents. have you determined for you at least, that malcontents are a problem, equal to or worse then other groups' malcontents?
what do you propose? Online ID? Deathsquads? Secret Handshake?
?
You should have called the Boy...
a tin foil hat wearing kook and he might have left.