Anyone interested in helping start a more "mainstream" version of the Daily Paul?
Submitted by WCU4Paul on Sun, 11/01/2009 - 18:46I've said it before and I'll say it again: Michael Nystrom is to be commended for his tireless efforts promoting liberty - particularly his work with this site.
However, I've come to the conclusion that this site is largely detrimental to the movement. It's become an echo chamber for the fervently committed. That's not a bad thing, per se. We need a place to congregate. But it's bad when that echo chamber causes us to lose focus and segue into issues that are extremely fringe and not central to our mission.
By discussing things like chemtrails, 9/11 truth, and other "fringe" topics, we shrink the movement in many ways.
- We scare off people who are here to discuss core liberty issues, as they see them, for a variety of reasons.
- They may feel their issues aren't as welcome here as "mission creep" sets in.
- If they hold a negative view of "fringe" issues, they lose confidence in the credibility of fellow forum participants (why bother strategizing about HR 1207 with people if you think they're nuts or politically unsavvy to begin with?).
- Whether or not they think negatively about "fringe" issues and those who immerse themselves in them, they may not want to be associated with those issues and people. For instance, maybe they don't want their boss/friends/significant others to see that they visit a website that focuses on "kook" issues during their lunch break. It's one thing to admit that you support a candidate who tries to gain more mainstream recognition. It's quite another to embrace that "fringe" label by proudly posting on a site where half the active forum topics are supremely "weird."
- We scare off potential new recruits for the same reasons listed above. Sheer cognitive dissonance may kick in and they may decide instantly that these "fringe" issues cut to the core of the libertarian ideology. It's one thing to try to convince someone of the importance of reforming monetary policy. That challenge becomes infinitely more difficult when prominent sounding boards for the movement have ideas (that they see as) much, much goofier.
- We give our opponents and the media ammunition to use against us. It's one thing to allege that outside groups (e.g., Students for 9/11 Truth) are "friendly" with our movement or our candidates. It's another when they can just say "look at the major themes on Ron Paul's website!" Let's let the liberty message stand on its own. It's hard enough convincing people who have come to depend on the state to move in our direction. It's harder enough when they begin to associate that move as a "package deal" that includes wearing a tin foil hate.
To my friends and allies who enjoy discussing "fringe" topics, many of whom are reasonable people, take heed. I'm not calling you out. I'm not saying your issues are inferior or unworthy of discussion. I'm not saying you should be marginalized. I'm just asking that you recognize that, sometimes, your issues and style can lead to the problems listed above. Sometimes we have to compartmentalize. I think many of us would agree that our families are the most important things in our lives. But there are times and places where we do other things. When we're at work, for instance, it's not appropriate to take tons of personal calls. Yes, family is more important. But work is work. Accordingly, even if you think certain "fringe" issues are the most important thing to you, you shouldn't bring them into another realm if it's not appropriate. If spreading information about chemtrails hurts Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Peter Schiff, our fight to audit the Fed, etc., then it should be reevaluated. That doesn't mean you can't spend time sharing information, elsewhere. Balance your lives! We need and want to spend time with our families, but we hope airplane pilots don't take that to the extreme and text their loved ones while landing 747s, do we!?!?
Unfortunately, the "fringe" elements have taken over this forum. It's not just people who like to discuss "fringe" issues; it's an extreme wing of that small group who usually don't listen to reason. I've talked to prominent people (names that all long-time members would know and respect, but who I won't list out of respect for their neutrality) who consider themselves conspiracy theorists and don't mind discussing them, and even they think things have gone too far. They've been less active because of it. And I know Michael Nystrom has basically come down on the side of "anything goes" here, with some exceptions for "civility." I respect his right to do as he wishes here, and appreciate that he's allowed (at least some) dissent to be voiced with respect to his decision.
With all that in mind, my question is this: WHO WOULD LIKE TO START A NEW PROJECT, a "Daily Paul" without the "crazy" ? In recent weeks, when confronted with angry "fringe" people who just say "if you don't like it, leave," I've pointed out that I would gladly start a more focused site if I had the time, resources, and technical knowledge to do so. I'm a very busy person who is also very passionate about these ideas and fighting for liberty, and I know if I embarked on such a project without loads of help, it'd lead to disaster in my personal and professional life. So I've just thrown my hands up in helplessness in the past. But if there are enough people out there who really want to fight for the STATED mission of this site ("constitutional liberty") and want a NEW "hub" for the movement where excessive discussion of harmful "fringe" issues is not embraced, maybe we can build something together.
Thoughts are welcome. Those who don't wish to publicly comment and invoke the wrath of those who will (sadly) be offended can feel free to send me a backchannel message. Thanks, and stay free.
Point taken?
This subject has been broached often. I have often taken "vacations" from the DP due to "feeling" disgusted with some topics and posts and replies; BUT, I keep coming back because the variety is so varied that the information I am looking for is most likely here any given day.
I have learned to pass up that which I know will be offensive or "kooky". I think a part of growing up is allowing others to grow at a different rate. One of the best and most important attributes of maturity, wisdom and greatness is patience. The ultimate example is God. "The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power." Nahum 1:3 If God wasn't so patient with all of us, we'd all be in Hell already.
I am no longer offended by the atheist attacks, the rude comments, the wacky subjects (BTW, I believe 9-11 was an inside job, or at least a cover-up) or any of the "negative things you mentioned. And I agree with one posters comment that such an idea would narrow the scope of the thinking of the visitors to this site.
Dedication to the principles of liberty make me come here to see how things are going and get my news. Since the MSM is not to be trusted, I no longer watch the TV news (I don't have cable either). This is where I get most of my news along with the zillions of forwarded article I get from friends.
If you get offended by something you read here or by someone's "ad hominum" attack, perhaps you can divorce your emotions from the situation and be glad you live in a country where there is freedom of speech. I may not like how someone else communicates, but I will fight for their right to communicate however they feel is appropriate. They will learn or not learn from their mistakes and choices.
More and more I am for more and more freedom ( please, nobody attack my redundancy, it might hurt my precious little feelings. lol), which includes your freedom to write this post and your freedom to start your own site. In the meantime, I will continue to come back to the DP whenever I want to, which is nearly every day.
"Great peace have they that love thy law and nothing shall offend them." Psalm 119:165
Great idea.
A web site that has thought narks to abolish "finge" issues. Sounds free to me.
Live and let live. If you don't like the post. Let it go. Or in case of bizzare opinions such as this I will take the liberty to exercise my first amenedment.
This site is detramental to the movement? The big brother movement?
.
Fringe Topics = Someone wants censorship
Control freaks!
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"So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."
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"So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."
* * * * * * * NEW R3VOLUTION HIP HOP TRACKS!! * * * * * * *
Http://www.YouTube.com/mortisnoctu
I Hope the New Site Will be Moderated
I hope the new site will be moderated so that only acceptable discussion will take place. I, for one, am more comfortable in hierarchical organizations. ;-)
I suspect some believe that
I suspect some believe that I would be better off on the "mainstream" site...I'm too serious and too scholarly. But you won't find me jumping ship anytime soon. The problem I have with your idea is the spirit in which it was offered. You label people with ideas other than your own as "kooks." I am reluctant to discount their ideas unless I have spent time investigating them myself--and frankly, I am too busy researching things that interest me to decide whether their viewpoints have any validity. In a very few instances I am willing to accept some ideas at face value because I personally know and respect the persons who posted it.
What especially bothers me is that you posted without first creatiing this "mainstream" website. You state that the quality of the Daily Paul has diminished because the "fringe" (your term, not mine) topics have dominated the forums. Of course you would never advise Michael Nystrom or the moderators to censor such topics, but by criticizing them in this way, I suspect you--and others like you--hope to effect a "chill" of free discourse on this site. This movement needs a variety of voices. What it does not need are people who are willing to identify and enforce taboos, and I thought that kind of authoritarianism--in government, in our personal lives--was what we were trying to resist.
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem. ("I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude"). Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 30 January 1787.
WCU4Paul Michael Has Already Spoken On This To You...
and if you had an ounce of respect you would take his advice.
Furthermore us "kooks" as you call us are here to stay forever exposing anything that is detrimental to human happiness, liberty and freedom. One would think you would have left long ago...
ps. there is a delete button when you edit your op, I suggest using it and getting rid of this post and then finding a new home say maybe here:
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/
.
http://www.ronpaulsingles.com/
Paper Ballots Hand Counted At The Precinct Or Bust
Support WTP Federal Supreme Court Case To Ban All Electronic Voting Or Forget 2010 or 2012
http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2009-05-11...
http://www.dailypaul.com/152976/diebold-vs-paper-ballots
http://www.ncel.w4sp.com/
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
http://www.votefraud.org/
http://www.hulu.com/hacking-democracy
The "kooks"
are just fun to laugh at. There is tons of good information here, but like everything on the internet you have to sift through the chaff. There is kooky and false stuff represented on CNN and Fox too.
I would visit a fringe free site, but I remember when RP was just a fringe candidate.
"fringe"?
Go away. Many of these "fringe" ideas are turning out to be real. I'm tired of folks like you. You are what's detrimental to the "movement".
whats wrong with u
the fact that many people see some of this stuff as fringe should be meaningless to you... why do you care that others are at a different "place" than you... i applaud people who try and take the message to people in different ways...
if these ideas were more popular in the mainstream then they would be considered mainstream and not fringe... the bottom line is that we are on the fringe right now and that has nothing to do with correct or incorrect.
chck out this beta site
www.theanonymousamerican.com same idea but trying to stay away from what many consider fringe topics... still a very young site.
Hi WCU4Paul
Hi WCU4Paul,
I'm new here but I used to post regularly in the early days of the Ron Paul Forums, but left after they continued to censor my posts about the Federal Reserve. The moderators believed it was a conspiracy theory. My posts about the coming New World Order weren't very welcomed either. And of course the ones about 911. I used to even get crap from them for simply posting that Ron Paul would be on the Alex Jones show.
It was hard to believe that a Ron Paul forum was being run by people who didn't understand the value of free speech. I felt I should be able to post my opinion, no matter what it is, as long as I am not disruptive or rude. Our founding fathers valued free speech, and listed the Bill of Rights in order of importance, with free speech right at the top. But I guess the moderators over there didn't understand their reasoning for that.
The "fringe" issues you mention are only "fringe" because the establishment keeps it so. So you would be playing right into their hands, by keeping important issues and alternative views from the general public, in my opinion.
I've noticed that many people like yourself believe that something that is "fringe" is bad. But wasn't Columbus' view of the world considered fringe at the time? And the views Copernicus and Galileo? Which side of the fence would you have been on as they dragged these men to prison for their non-mainstream (but absolutely correct) views on the universe? Would it have served mankind better by keeping their unpopular views silent?
You might look into the major polls that have been taken over the years and you will see that the majority of Americans do not believe the official government 911 story. So it's OK to talk about one of the biggest events in US history. It's really OK WCU4Paul - you wouldn't be "fringe".
~WannaBfree
we are the Remnant
You can not
sensor free speech in a private forum.
Very well said newbee---and welcome aboard.
" The force of a correction is equal and opposite to the deception that proceded it"
B. Bonner
"Since 1789 the only government on Earth that has the power to crush the American people`s liberties across the board is the government of the United States"
Robert Higgs
what hydroman
said!
That'll teach you
thinking out loud and stuff.
I still think a new Ron Paul site, geared towards politics only, or just mainstream topics is a good idea.
You grease em up there, then send them here.
"I don't endorse anything they say"
~Ron Paul On the 911 Truth movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGyhlNY0y1k
That's what i thought
It can be the foyer on the way to the conversation pit that is here.
Colchester, New London County, Connecticut
Lanolin? Comes from wool right?
Isn't that what it's called?
Grease the sheep with Lanolin, they won't even notice.
Trickles of truth, without bashing them in the head with it.
"I don't endorse anything they say"
~Ron Paul On the 911 Truth movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGyhlNY0y1k
If you think the spam filter is bad...
Just think how it would be if posts were deliberately censored. No thanks.
Don't bother
It looks like we're all moving over here
http://our.gop.com/Groups/Ron_Paul_Republicans
Colchester, New London County, Connecticut
No thanks...
"mainstream"=compromising
Best of luck to ya.
With Freedom Comes Responsibility
As for me, I am staying put here at the DailyPaul. I like being at a place where people think alike, for the most part, and don't have to argue their points or try to convince others. But, good luck either way.
With Freedom Comes Responsibility
Sheesh! Go do it already then!!
* Gather your support for this, network, and just go do it! Good luck !
****
"I think we are living in a world of lies: lies that don't even know they are lies, because they are the children and grandchildren of lies." ~ Chris Floyd
"I think we are living in a world of lies: lies that don't even know they are lies, because they are the children and grandchildren of lies." ~ Chris Floyd
I don't think a more
I don't think a more mainstream version is possible. MANY Ron Paul supporters are 9/11 truthers and 'conspiracy theorists'. The 'crazy' you talk about is what makes our movement different from all others. 'Crazy' is what draws attention and more often then not, 'crazy' is truth. If you were to jump back two years, the principles of our movement sounded radical and 'crazy' to the majority of America, which is one reason why we were shunned. As time went on and the crazies gained momentum and turned on the loud speakers, the movement grew rapidly and naturally became more mainstream. Ron Paul supporters are smart intellectuals, and I believe they know what is hurting the movement and what the boundaries are. Lastly, I don't think we should care what others think because we are sovereign individuals that know what the truth is and know who they are as supporters, individuals, and proponents of the movement.
I see
where you are coming from. However, I enjoy the varied conversation. Dr. Paul once said in a recent interview (i believe recently) that we should stop trying to be so judgmental with one another. I believe we should try to embrace this as best we can (I am surely guilty of being this at times). Perhaps a rating system like Netflix as one suggested. If it is not your cup of tea then you would not get that many if any stories about those topics. I believe one of the best traits of this growing community is that most are tolerable of other people's views and that liberty and individual freedom is what brings us together. Not everyone will agree on every specific issue but one I believe so is that government is too big and our individual freedoms are be gradually picked apart.
I like all the varied topics as long as the promotion of liberty, individual freedom, and knowing ones rights (the main ideas of Dr. Paul) are the main focus. I would suggest more categories for certain "exceptional" stories perhaps some type of tagging system.
Just my opinion.
First post, long time reader.
Thanks...I'll Join and help out
We need to mass market today's version of Thomas Paine's "Common Sense", that is based upon educating the people, and rededicating ourselves to the objectives of the American Revolution all over again, and abolishing the corrupt Monopolies, the Banking Elites, and the Imperial Conquest abroad -- and rallying the people around the simple concept of actually following the U.S. Constitution.
Keep us informed about your plans...
you made some good points
keep up the good work
is this
is this fringe?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VebOTc-7shU
Lots of Anger
I advertise on this site, and I read it often but haven't posted in a long time. Why? Maybe its just the nature of political blogs as a whole, but there are a lot of personal attacks. Just sayin.....
While your premise sounds good,
and I agree that sometimes we have kooks on here, we must remember that ANYONE who would be for Ron Paul would be sick of the status quo, ie "mainstream". If there was a mainstream one of these forums, I wouldn't think of going there.
I was turned off...
... from the previous thread. After name-calling, there was a gratuitous "( No Offense... )" followup.
Bullsheet. I'd never come to someone's house, insult their honored guests, slap them in the face, then try to humor the host with a modicum of flattery.
Have you no shame?
-Michael
(I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken)
-Michael
(I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken)