Will you bend?

0 votes

I have a question for all of you. At the risk of sounding like a socialist, which I clearly am not, I have an idea I would like to share with you.

I was listening to a song by Wyclef yesterday, "If I was President"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pq_3OheqzU

He said something I could agree with

"Instead of spending billions on the war, I could use that money, so I could feed the poor"

I have heard Ron Paul talk about how he would be more tolerable of the social programs if we could cut our foreign policy of endless wars and occupation.

So I ask you friends, if we could get the country behind this idea, would you support it? I'm not saying expand the social programs indefinitely, but if we could actually end the wars and feed the poor would you stand with me? Could this be something to stand on for 2012. I know it flies in the face of what we stand for, but I think the overall effect it would have on the general public would astounding, and we could gather more people to the "bring them all home" message

I guess I need to clarify, I don't support welfare, but I do support an end to all unjust wars, and if we can rally enough people to "end the wars" I would use this as a bridge to drastically cut our spending and return your tax money to you. The end goal is very minimal taxation and a humble foreign policy.

Thank you all for your replies

Cheers,
FB

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Hold on.

What makes you think for one second that big government would spend your tax monet to help the poor? Have they done a good job of that so far? They use money they DON"T have to start wars and you think they would bring troops home and use the (fake money/debt) to help the poor?
Dream on.
People abuse the system too. Many collect welfare that do not need or deserve it. Who can decide better if your neighbor is in need you or big government?. Of course some people would only look out for themselves and not help thier neighbor, but most will help. Keep in mind also that many welfare recipients only look out for themselves and are not willing to try to make it on thier own when they are perfectly capable. Of course government can get in the way of people who have a mild disability from doing something they are capable of too because of regulations ect. I am one of those. I have a mild seizure disorder and want to start a small boarding kennel on my property in an agricultural zoned area and can't because of all of the rules and regs of state, local and federal gov. I don't/ can't collect welfare because of my husbands income and no ss ddisability because I was a stay at home home shooling mom so I didn't get enough work hours to collect ss. I could have a pen full of hunting dogs, pigs, or anything else but would have to spend a fortune to set up a very small boarding business. Of course I could just do it off the grid and hope for the best, but what happens if they catch me and decide to take action? Big government forces people in to bad situations and kills dreams. You have to have money to make money or get in debt and hope like heck you can get out of it. Why should my husband have to have it all on his shoulders? But I don't want your tax money. I want the government to get out of the way and let me make money right here on my land. As long as I'm not bothering anyone why not? Why should I have to pay tens of thousands of dollars for permits and oh you would not believe the list of things they say i have to do. It all added up to over 100,000 in mostly paperwork before getting started and even a sign permit? Widening my driveway? And the road in front of my house? Keep in mind I live in a rural area and there is very little traffic and i am talkind about a ten dog kennel. Kid of a doggie dude ranch with lots of room to run and a nice warm place to sleep and me to play with and love them.

I think the true direction

I think the true direction of peace will gain a lot of support in this country. After the people have just been lied to by our new president. It is a great way to start the change in the right direction. End the War .. Feed the people. We can then start helping each other. I watched how WE helped each other after 911 and katrina. We did better than our govt institutions. Americans have big hearts let us give our money to who we want.
Peace

I think you misunderstand what Ron Paul has stated

He advocates ending the wars and taking care of those currently dependent on government subsidies. But there will be a transition away from welfare. It will take time but he is not in favor of just ending welfare tomorrow and leave people homeless and starving.

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You uncover the dark side to Ron Paul's beliefs

prostitution? okay

government is for feeding the homeless? hell no! Ummm, charities, yeah, charities will handle all that.

I'm sorry, but Ron Paulers are full of shit by claiming that private charities is the answer to taking care of people who can't take care of themselves.

If Ron Paul becomes a leading candidate, they will crucify him on these kinds of views.

Face it...there is room for the founding principles of freedom AND choosing to give our government the responsibility to take care of those who can't take care of themselves.

I personally know of people who just cannot take care of themselves. They would live in the street and die if it weren't for government social programs.

Wrong

Private charities are the only way to help these people. It worked before government stuck their nose into the mix. And government hasn't helped.

Voluntary charity is the only method of helping others that does not make you a slave.

The US is the most charitable country on earth. That is after 50% of income is confiscated by government.

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Charitible organizations took care of these hings long before...

..the gov't stuck it's chubby little hand in our pocket to 'help them out'.

I have no issue with things like unemployment insurance or food stamp programs.... but they should be voluntary, not mandatory. That means if you work and put into the system, you can collect during bad times. If you work and don't put into the system, you had better taken care to assure your 'cushion' is in place if you need it.

Why we spend so much time worrying about the people who don't work and don't pay into the system is beyond me.

I live in New Jersey. Once it gets to this level, it is impossible for anyone to convince the cattle that the trough should no longer be refilled.

I may not know the truth, but I know when I'm being lied to...

I may not know the truth, but I know when I'm being lied to...

Many charitable

Many charitable organizations are as big scam as Federal Reserve Banking system is. I absolutely agree with you that private charities are not the answer to taking care of people who can't take care of themselves.

That "you can't be a little pregnant" philosophy is the most stupid sentence Ron Paul said. Only dictators will share such views... either you have (full) power or you don't have any... that "winner takes it all" philosophy is very prevalent in American culture but if you support it you should support Monsanto and Goldman Sachs not "free market".

Why charities do not solved problem of poverty in El Salvador, Bangladesh or Somalia... those countries do not have big socialistic government programs and people are not lazy by working 12- 18 hours shifts to earn a dollar or 2 a day... Do you really want such reality in this country for your kids??? Would you like to work for 25 cents an hour to get freedom of not having government regulation and taxes? Do you prefer to be enslaved by international banksters that will tax you indirectly???

I am getting impression that all that support Ron Paul is getting from folks on this board comes from hope that Ron Paul will become a dictator, abolish all taxes and all poverty will dissappear because Ron Paul will proclaim that from now on we are living in free market... of course all corporations, , socialists, banksters, liberals, CIA, FBI, FDA, Mel Wats, Rush Limbaughs , Michael Moors will either agree with this proclamation or will be sent to FEMA camps in Alaska...
Folks do you really believe it is federal taxes that make your life miserable and enslave you... would your life would be better if your medicare, SS,and federal tax no longer would be withold from your paycheck in return for not opposing FED, Military Industrial Complex, Monsanto, Pharma , Aspartame, War in Afghanistan and Iraq, genetically modified food, police and border checkpoints, patriot act, fluoride in water and mercury in vaccination....do you really want to outsource all the jobs to China, India and El Salvador???
I am sure that Rothchilds or Rockefelers would find a way to get that tax saved money... and they will even give.. some of it ...to charitable organizations...
So what is more important: Ending the Fed and stopping banks to create money out of thin air, ending war on drugs that cost more than medicare , reducing half a trillion military budget and ending policing the world, stopping dumbing up polluting and poisoning people by pharma and food corporations... you can't do even single item from this list without mass support of all kind of people... liberals, coservatives, independents, gays, catholics and protestants, blacks, latinos and illegal emigrants... to do this you have to replace crooks with honest people... and honest do not always mean free market TOTAL FREEDOM lovers who see ss, medicare, universal healthcare as a theft of your hard earned money.

Those that make a lot of money do not work hard...

those that have even more money do nothing to earn it... it is their money that work for them and if you think that you can compete with them ... if only government will stop collecting taxes... you are a fool !

You're wrong

Non-profits are a huge business that proved many things, and in the past provided even more than they do when government takes them over.

When it's run by the government, such as the US military, it's socialism, when it's voluntary it's philanthropic. It's how many building uased to get named... how universities were built, hospitals, orphanages..

The government does not need to be issueing Welfare.. The government needs to get out of the way so people can help each other. People do. Corporations don't.

WE ARE GOING TO WIN!
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Make it legal to be charitable

I can't volunteer my medical skills - would have to buy insurance that I cannot afford, as I am not getting a paycheck, I am trying to volunteer...

I can't take homemade bread to the food bank...

I can't take home canned goods either...

I can't teach yoga to the old folks, I am not "certified" and someone might get hurt...

Truth exists, and it deserves to be cherished.

We don't have enough money to fund entitlement programs...

even with spending cuts. We'd just be stealing from our grandchildren. Give them 1%, sacrifice 100% of the Principle. What's that they say about the road to hell?

I'm starting to feel that the only thing that will wake this country up, is the death of the U.S. dollar. Frightening.

I won't bend.

How do you think we got be be where we now are?

We now have massive government, and we got here one "bend" at a time.

"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence." Thomas H. Huxley

Legitimate question FB...

I think I heard a while back that Montana has a good 'welfare' program, if such a thing can be good. They don't give 'handouts', but don't let people starve either. I could accept the government providing the absolute most bare essential lifeline for those who would starve in the street without it.

If I were king, I'd end the drug war immediately, turn the empty prisons into open-door survival quarters for the destitute. Allow labor providers to set up office right next door to give them the opportunity to work their way out of destitution. Allow corporate sponsors to help fund the facility, perhaps weaning it off of the taxpayers back completely.

I would maintain the strongest military in the world, but it would be for national defense ONLY, no bases around the world, just DEFENSE.

There's no perfect plan, but something like this could be a step in the right direction, an intermediary step if you would....

--------
We don't know how to mind our own business
'Cause the whole worlds got to be just like us
Now we are fighting a war over there
No matter who's the winner
We can't pay the cost
'Cause there's a monster on the loose

'Cause there's a monster on the loose

NO....

socialism is socialism. Ron Paul believes in republicanism and so do I. We need to end all welfare. Give a man a fish..he eats for a day, Teach a man to fish and he eats for life.

NO welfare warfare state! Stop the madness!

We've been giving out fish

for almost a hundred years. We've been at war for a very long time.
If you like it or not, you have supported the warfare welfare state by your taxes. I am wondering if you would sacrifice principle and work with another group of people with different motives so you could you could achieve one of your goals. This is my litmus test to see if people really want to end the wars and what they would sacrifice to do it. For the most part, everyone thinks I need a lesson on Ron Paul or libertarianism, I don't.

i live in an urban core.

i live in an urban core. lots of homeless men. where do you suppose i should start with "teaching a man to fish?" what does that mean? do i give him "job skills"?? how do i make him productive??

You're right... but...

we can't get from Point A, where we are now, to Point B, where we want to be, in one single step. It must be incremental, and Furl-Low brings up good discussion, IMHO.
--------
We don't know how to mind our own business
'Cause the whole worlds got to be just like us
Now we are fighting a war over there
No matter who's the winner
We can't pay the cost
'Cause there's a monster on the loose

'Cause there's a monster on the loose

I have been listening to scott horton

and he was talking to someone about the dead anti war movement. I think that the only way for us to get more people involved is through the anti war movement. It needs a huge shot in the arm since Obama took office but with the escalations in violence it maybe a prime time to pick up the torch.

I don't think we are going to get through to the average independent voters by telling them a currency crisis will come if we don't do something to change course soon. They look at you like you are nuts....they have been brain washed by the think positive pc movement. The young people can't even be convinced too easily that social security and medicare are there just to rob them blind to pay for a bunch of rich old folks' retirement.

But yea if we could get antiwar going then we have a shot, remember you can run on anything you like; its politics. Nothing says we can't have a change of heart after the all the troops are home. Remember war is the health of the state so if you want to stop the growth of government you have to stop the wars. Reducing the empire should be our number one priority.

We already know what issues

We already know what issues to compromise and not compromise via Dr. Paul:

Foreign Policy: The Iraq War must end as quickly as possible with removal of all our soldiers from the region. We must initiate the return of our soldiers from around the world, including Korea, Japan, Europe and the entire Middle East. We must cease the war propaganda, threats of a blockade and plans for attacks on Iran, nor should we re-ignite the cold war with Russia over Georgia. We must be willing to talk to all countries and offer friendship and trade and travel to all who are willing. We must take off the table the threat of a nuclear first strike against all nations.

Privacy: We must protect the privacy and civil liberties of all persons under US jurisdiction. We must repeal or radically change the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, and the FISA legislation. We must reject the notion and practice of torture, eliminations of habeas corpus, secret tribunals, and secret prisons. We must deny immunity for corporations that spy willingly on the people for the benefit of the government. We must reject the unitary presidency, the illegal use of signing statements and excessive use of executive orders.

The National Debt: We believe that there should be no increase in the national debt. The burden of debt placed on the next generation is unjust and already threatening our economy and the value of our dollar. We must pay our bills as we go along and not unfairly place this burden on a future generation.

The Federal Reserve: We seek a thorough investigation, evaluation and audit of the Federal Reserve System and its cozy relationships with the banking, corporate, and other financial institutions.

These four points are the minimum.

Ventura 2012

There is

still just one big problem. The money is not there. It would have been great if someone had the foresight to think of this before all this money was printed and all this debt was accumilated. Still would be better than what is going on now. Here comes another but. We still will have to have a very strong defense here at home after all of the countries we have ticked off. It may take a while for them to forgive. We have to get the debt under control and get the government out of our pockets. I think we could do a better job of helping each other out instead of the government being involved. Isn't that what made this mess in the first place? If you put money into the hands of corruption it will not likely end up in the hands of those that are truely in need or deserving of it before much of it is absorbed by greed and simple incompetence. It just doesn't and hasn't worked.

I agree

we will need a big military for a very long time, I think 5 or 6 generations if we stopped our antics right now. And I know they don't have any money, but lets say we got them to come home now and return the unused portions of the budget. Kick a few thousand to feeding the poor so the democrats who helped us are happy and we take the rest and return it to the people.

I'm trying to solve a riddle that keeps changing.

why do we need a big

why do we need a big military when we have nuclear weapons?

Personally, I would dump the CIA and put some of its legitimate functions(assuming it has them) into the military (DIA). I would cut the army budget by 75% and the air force by 50%. I would leave the Navy/Marines as-is.

Ventura 2012

Hey Furlough

Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must. like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.-Thomas Paine

The R3volution requires action, not observation!!!!

I don't really like how you tear apart hawkiye at his attempts to become a sovereign citizen, but I will give you some props on this. I will say if the wars ended, much of welfare would end due to the fact that many veterans come home and screw up their family due to their emotional problems, creating children who grow up emotionally troubled, therefore creating unpositive members of society. If that makes any sense. I think if we stopped the wars, we would stop the chain reaction of entitlements. War creates emotionally blank men and women, who in turn pass that trait on to their children and on and on. These people (God bless them so) at no fault of their own turn out to be drains on society because they simply cannot function normally. Your idea would work, but it would also down the line help to zero itself out, which is a good thing.

Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must. like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.-Thomas Paine

The R3volution requires action, not observation!!!!

Thank you

I didn't even think that far down the road, I just knew it would have a positive effect if we stopped making enemies, wasting money and getting our boys and girls killed.

Thanks for the long range view.

Per the strawmen, I wish them the best, but if you say you got proof of something, I want it shared and not in secret code. Also, I rip ideas, including my own, I always stop short of attacking the person.

Cheers

I am gonna try and become a strawman down the road

Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must. like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.-Thomas Paine

The R3volution requires action, not observation!!!!

They won't take me alive if it does not work.

Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must. like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.-Thomas Paine

The R3volution requires action, not observation!!!!

and I wish you the best.

Stay away from candles and the Feds.

Perhaps taking what you are describing and giving it a twist.

Here goes...

If I remember correctly, someone put a figure on the last bailout of more than $30,000 per family.

I was of course not in favor of the bailout, but I remember thinking back then that if they are going to do something like that anyway, if they really wanted to stimulate the economy, instead of giving the money to bankers/corporations, they would've been better off just giving the $30,000 to the families.

Unlike the stimulus money, which was in the hundreds of dollars and wasn't going to really change anything, people would spend tens of thousands of dollars differently and in economically stimulating ways.

New car purchases, home improvements, travel, etc. People might've paid off debts, but with a check that large, they would've done other things like this, too.

One of the objections to the socialistic approach you are asking about in your proposal is the gov't apportioning of the war money through social service programs.

I don't know how much it would amount to, but if the war expenditure money was to go directly to the people instead of through social service programs, they could decide for themselves to what extent they want to feed the poor.

I'm not exactly advocating it, but if something like what you are describing was going to be done, maybe this would be more palatable to those objecting to the social service programs.

Anyway, just a thought.

Absolutely

I don't think this has to be a government run program, but using your words, it may be more palatable to democrats. The reason they want the government to take care of everyone, is they don't want to do it themselves and they don't trust everyone to do it. I know, it's a major malfunction on the left brain, but it is what it is. I think we could really get together with the left for the end the war movement, however you slice it. I just figured enough people are fed up with the government spending so much and virtually all of it is wasted, might as well take care of our own people.

I think the economy would be instantly jump started if we gave everyone their cash back, lets say your last 3 years in taxes all returned because the government sold off most of it's assets to pay us back for fraud. Talk about letting the free market ride.

Thanks for the input

At least your wheels are turning. :)

It's nice to have a place like DP where like-minded people, however diverse, can put their heads together.

LOL

the wheel is spinning but the hamster is dead. I've been told that before, I was flattered

I am afraid

you are completely ignoring the entire financial and power structure which exist to feed the military industrial complex, wall street, Bilderbergers etc.

You proposition could never happen. Since the Fed and the government exist to benefit the political and economic oligarchy.

Such idea makes for a beautiful song verse but does not work in reality.