Can Neo-Cons be converted?
Question;
Can Neo-Cons be converted to "our movement"?
There is a rampant and continuous supposition posited by a certain few members whom we all recognize, that "if we just submerge and ignore some subjects from public view" that we can "attract more people" into "the movement".
I think the idea is a basic political argument that if you don't stand for anything, people won't find any reason to disagree with you.
This ignores the fact that nearly any position in this movement can be seen as "kooky" by a large percentage of the "mainstream", and focuses only on the pet-peeves of the particular entities posting their beefs about these certain subjects.
I make a few observations about this.
First, it's my contention that this is inherently dishonest, and will be completely unacceptable to anybody with any sense of integrity at all.
But, of course, this doesn't seem to bother these certain members, who seek to silence any speech on these subjects.
"For our own good", of course!
Secondly, and more to the point of the title, since these "certain subjects" are generally related to questioning the 9/11 issue and it's absolutely unquestionable and certain connection to creating the current war, they propose that people like warmongering Neo-cons could be attracted into our movement, if we just acted like we never knew about anything like that, so that we didn't "repel" the warmongering neocons with our "crazy ideas".
Thirdly, why would we want any warmongering Neo-cons in "our movement" anyway?
Isn't the whole idea to replace these turds, and get them the hell out of the gov't? How does inviting them into "our movement" fit into this whole thing?
Is there some benefit to swelling our "numbers" with people who's views are completely anathema to our very existence?
I'm trying to wrap my brain around this concept.
What can possibly be achieved by denying our honesty and integrity, to attract Neo-cons, in order to fill our ranks with our enemies?
Surely others see this going on.
What's the point of these people, in saying this?
They call me looney and a "danger to the movement" because I speak my mind here.
They say that we're better off to deny or be silent about what we have found out about various subjects, so as to be able attract unsavory characters into our membership, who have no interest in us, except that they want us gone.
"Just shut up about it" is the war cry(pardon the pun).
What say you?
No
NeoCons can not be converted, but the Neo-Conned" can be. There's a significant difference.
Old Right vs. New Right
Old Right= Taft (and Paul)
New Right = The Barry Goldwater movement. This was when the Right became hawkish\imperialist again having internalized FDR's great society and wars.
Although I was never a neo-con, I had my own brand of kool aid.
In order to wake up, the cognitive dissonace had to hit me first.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
I think that in most cases, people wake up when their life experiences just don't make sense in the context of their old belief system.
"I believe the true significance of the Gold Commission is that the politicians and central bankers were so alarmed at such a thing that they made sure it was packed by an array of Keynesians and monetarists." (Ron Paul 1985)
Yes
If we adopt the fairness doctrine. Then once the freedom movement succeeds, we can dump the fairness doctrine.
Support the Fairness Doctrine....and rid ourselves of the NeoCon propaganda machine.
So we're supposed to..
Support stripping first amendment rights in the name of liberty?
Seems to me from what I've read in the history books, courses of action like that never work out as hoped for...
Vote em all out! - http://www.teabombs.com/
Fellow Veterans, This Is A Call To Arms!
http://www.facebook.com/events/192677970828185/
February 20, 2012 - Veterans For Ron Paul March on D.C.!
I'm a converted Neo-Con. If
I'm a converted Neo-Con. If you can get them away from Fox News long enough you have a chance. We got rid of television in our home, and shortly thereafter I stopped being a neo-con. Coincidence?
probably not! I have heard
probably not! I have heard neo-cons CRITICIZE democrats for not watching Fox News, lol.
Ventura 2012
I've been trying to convert some here...
http://www.tcunation.com/forum/topics/conservatives-must-end...
But as you can see, it can be very difficult at times. Patience is a virtue.
Ron Paul 2012 for Peace
Ron Paul 2012 for Peace
The lower level neo-cons
The lower level neo-cons sure, the ones up top who make the calls, very unlikely. They are born psychopaths and truly believe in their agendas.
"Oh, foolish man, what can you not be made to believe?" - Adam Weishaupt
www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com
"One man with courage is a majority." ~ Andrew Jackson
"neo-con" voter defined
a neo-con voter is just a Republican who supported the establishment mantra based on party-affiliation alone, in spite of the big government, liberal policies.
These are people who believe in Reagan's 11th amendment, that was used during '66 campaign for Governor:
"Thou shalt not speak ill of any fellow Republican."
But a real conservative stands up for his conservative principles, and does not waver just based on party-affiliation, alone.
If you are going to try and wake up a neo-con, it has to come from the understanding that they were tricked into obeying the party-line, based on liberal credentials under the GOP guise. Bush not only managed to fool people into believing he was a Christian, but he convinced everyone that he was a conservative.
The strategy that I have always used is to help others see how their team-think mentality only makes us hopelessly blind to seeing atrocities committed by our own team.
I doubt it's very probable
I doubt it's very probable as far as genuine, self identified neo conservatives are concerned. Most of them are very well aware they are a relative newcomers to the "conservative" side of thought, and explicitly chose to endorse a "third way", between big government liberalism and small government conservatism. Which essentially boils down to big government conservatism. Hence the "liberals mugged by reality" banner they used to rally under.
The thing is, these guys are rare, and not really all that important to convert. Most people who watch Hannity and "hate terrorists", just aren't Bill Kristol. Just as most people who hate taxes aren't Lew Rockwell. 90% of American self identified "conservatives" don't have anywhere near the ideological anchor those two have, and can probably be persuaded to side with either one on most issues, depending on how the issues are presented to them.
One great result of the RP campaign, and the self inflicted wounds the neo cons dealt themselves with at least TARP, is how many people are now at least aware of a more Lew Rockwellian conservatism, which, at least in its Ron Paul guise, is the only conservatism that can truly lay claim to be conservative. Instead of having to vote between being taxed to either feed trial lawyers or bomb people halfway around the world, many more people are now aware they can vote not to be taxed at all. And, furthermore, I believe many of those who realizes this, does so by being convinced of the soundness of the underlying principles, which makes it highly unlikely they'll ever switch back. While I have no difficulty seeing how a Hannityite could switch to become a Ron Paul supporter, once they reach Ron Paul, I simply cannot imagine many ever switching back. Some may go even further, and become full on anarchists, but I seriously doubt many will turn back and start believing in government again.
I am a Converted Neo-Con who
I am a Converted Neo-Con who bought into the Fox News and Republican LIE Hook, Line and Sinker. I converted all the way last February when I finally admitted to myself 911 was an inside job and found the Daily Paul soon after.
In my circle of Republican Neo-Con friends, one by one they are awakening from the pack of lies they are told from the moment they are born. I only regret that I was not smart enough to educate myself beofre myson was born 8 years ago to avoid all of those dangerous vacinations.
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."- Thomas Jefferson
There is no Left or Right -- there is only freedom or tyranny. Everything else is an illusion, an obfuscation to keep you confused and silent as the world burns around you." - Philip Brennan
"Invest only in things that you can stand in front of and pr
wow, that sounds exactly
wow, that sounds exactly like what happened to me. 9/11 Truth was a big part in my leaving my neo-con paradigm. Once my mind seriously considered even the possibility that 9/11 wasn't everything Fox News was telling me it was, my little world started crumbling down around me (in a good way!)
Perfect Analysis - Great Reply
I know that myself and other RP supporters are the types you identify in your reply. I watch Bill Krystol and Hannity and I may agree with them 90 pct of the time but they clearly come at this with a preverse ideology that seems conservative and freedom based - but really isnt.
I will always remember Bill Krystol calling Ron Paul Un-American. I think he is the prime source for Fox News ignoring Dr. Paul.
I came from neo-conservatism . . .
it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--
and many of my relatives are still very neo-conservative.
So, yes, indeed a "neo-con" can be "converted", but to what.
You have to keep the 'thing' to which *they* are being converted "pure enough" that there can be a conversion.
There would be no conversion if there weren't a change--
so if those who believe things that the neo-conservatives don't believe run away from those beliefs and decry them--
there will be no conversion.
Hope that makes sense.
That's sort of like a Catholic trying to convert a Protestant by becoming a Protestant him/herself?
it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--
Ok, I've sort of been trying
to stay out of the discussion to let it run free.
However, I think that alot of the responses relate solely to the title, and there's more to it than that.
So, for a little tighter direction, I'll try again:
To convert neocons, is it wise to hide our own real positions and try to be more like neocons, in order to attract them?
This is something that is being proposed by the 9/11-truth bashers on here, that if we would only "act more like neocons" we could get them in here.
Should we become more like them, or should they become more like us? This is the critical question.
Certainly, we could get alot of support if we just adopted the planks of the major parties.
Is that a wise course of action?
I don't think so.
of course they should be more like us
but you need to go very slow. Excuse my crass analogy, but an old boss made a great speech one day about selling to people that had already bought a product rather than trying to convince someone they need the product for the first time.
If you are trying to get laid, go out and look for the easy girls. Trying to sleep with a virgin is one of the hardest things you can do, it will take forever to convince her, there is a good chance it won't happen, and if it does, it won't be that great.
In terms of this conversation, you would like to talk to them like you are talking to us, but they don't understand the language.
The Neo-Cons are your virgins. You're not going to get them on your level for a very long time. You need to get your hand slapped, but you don't want them getting out of the car.
You can take it to a certain point without scaring them off, and yes we need them. It's why Ron is a Republican
I love your analogy...
Really made me smile. Thanks. I like your thought process.
So what do you think a good opening line to a neo-con would be? (Seriously, though.)
I'd use the left/right paradigm
Something like,
those lousy democrats are marching us into socialism
Head nod
they are going to spend us into the poor house
Head nod
Congress forgot about us, the people
Head nod
Bush is one of the culprits...
Get them to say yes 3 times before you hit em with something a little harder
lol, I've used this strategy
lol, I've used this strategy before. It worked but it took almost daily repetition for 2-3 months.
Ventura 2012
Of course we shouldn't start acting like neo-cons...
nor should we reject them...
that doesn't mean bring them "into the fold" right away however - an education of the constitution and history is needed first....Ron Paul didn't act like a neo-con when his words jarred me into thinking about my own beliefs.....
Vote em all out! - http://www.teabombs.com/
Fellow Veterans, This Is A Call To Arms!
http://www.facebook.com/events/192677970828185/
February 20, 2012 - Veterans For Ron Paul March on D.C.!
My "7 points 4 Neo-Cons"
1 - Sovereignty. Get out of the U.N. and other world government bodies. Respect our Constitution.
2 - We'd be far safer with secure ports and borders, and a missile shield that covered U.S. territory than we are today.
3 - Fear of what happens if our dollar/economy collapses - a very real reality, what will happen to all those military personnel stationed overseas? They will suffer the humiliation of a defeat without a shot being fired. This happened to the Soviet troops serving in satellite countries when the Soviet Union collapsed, they were starving and unable to get home. Our brave men and women in uniform deserve better than that.
4 - "The borrower is SLAVE to the lender" - GOD - we're enslaving ourselves to foreign countries due to our out of control spending, and our foreign policy greatly adds to this spending. Debt to China and the rest of the world is not a good position to be in.
5 - The reality of the urban areas that have been abandoned by the Republican party for decades. Ron Paul Republicans will be able to win support in these areas, and a Ron Paul Republican / Reagan Republican Coalition is a winning ticket to take back America.
6 - The traditional Republican platform of not policing the world.
7 - The original intent of our founders as to our foreign policy. Even Washington had some great quotes on non-interventionism, our policy until the Progressive Era.
from G. Washington - "Act for ourselves and not for others," by forming an "American character wholly free of foreign attachments."
if they say - "Things are different now than they were 200 years ago" ask them - if we accept that line of thinking, are there other principles of the founders we should throw out, and where do we stop?
Vote em all out! - http://www.teabombs.com/
Fellow Veterans, This Is A Call To Arms!
http://www.facebook.com/events/192677970828185/
February 20, 2012 - Veterans For Ron Paul March on D.C.!
If neo-cons can't be converted....
What am I doing here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyxhD20IRjs
Vote em all out! - http://www.teabombs.com/
Fellow Veterans, This Is A Call To Arms!
http://www.facebook.com/events/192677970828185/
February 20, 2012 - Veterans For Ron Paul March on D.C.!
Self converted ex-neocon here.
Self converted ex-neocon here(well okay RP had something to do with it too :P). That first debate Ron Paul was in perked up my ears and made me sit forward in my seat. I couldn't believe what he was saying, but it made so much sense. Ron's explanation of 'blowback' blew my mind wide open and down the rabbit hole I went seeing more and more truth about the world and the false matrix created for us to live in.
So yes, neocons can be converted. However, you cannot force them to it. You must just patiently share ideas and viewpoints. The more those ideas are talked about...the more normal they become. Eventually, step by step, many will wake up when given the truth.
======
Federal Reserve to the American People:
"Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam."
================
Who is John Galt? Vote ███ ███ 2012!
Good question...I was not so much converted as I found a home
Like the vast majority of people, I was voting for the lesser of two evils.
I had always wanted someone who not only talked like a real conservative, but also walked the conservative walk. The closest thing was those nasty moderate Republicans (neocons...or as I like to call them, decepticons).
Admittedly, I got caught up neocon propaganda shows, but I never felt that any neocon had the record that I thought they should...so I never felt good when I voted for them. In fact, when a real conservative arose, it was easy for me to not vote Republican (e.g., I voted for Ross Perot).
Then came Ron Paul in the GOP primary debates. When he started talk like a real conservative AND started to speak deep truths that no neocon would dare talk about (no income tax, no war, etc.), I decided to do some research to see if Paul walks the conservative walk...and, of course, he does.
I haven't looked back since...and there is no need to, since I didn't leave the Republican party...it left me a long time ago.
Like I said many times, Ron Paul sells Ron Paul better than any thing else. The best thing we can do to help Ron Paul is get people to hear and learn more about Ron Paul.
Just look at what Ron Paulers have done so far:
-RP instantly changed the GOP primary debate rhetoric (suddenly, lots of candidates started saying things that Ron Paul said)
-RP started the Tea Parties...even though it has been hijacked to an extent, many the same demands about smaller government are there
-RP started the arguments against the Fed...now it is a mainstream issue
Sure they are doing things to control/oppress Ron Paul, but they clearly cannot stop the avalanche of real conservatives banging at the door. And many of those real conservatives are clinging to the neocons by threads.
Cut those threads with Ron Paul and make them feel welcome.
Once we reach the tipping point, it will become socially acceptable for people to support Ron Paul, and most of the public (Republicans and Democrats) will support Ron Paul.
Please know that we have a strong momentum going...we need to keep it going.
As a recovering Neo conservative I can say..
We will not convince the true partisans that have found comfort in the far left radicalism of neo-conservatism and Fox news 24/7 propaganda. They worship their televisions and can be manipulated to make decisions that will hurt them in the long run, and vote for these very things. Look at Obama, a victory with record number of votes, and yet up to election time I had no clue what Obama had planned short of "Hope and Change". Independents voted for Obama because he was not Bush and since all of the other talking heads on the right campaigned praising the policies of the failed Bush administration, and this can be seen in the drop in approval ratings for Obama at present. If an individual supports the Bush administration today, you can rest assured that they or someone close to them are faithful Fox news watchers, and Americans are too dumb and lazy to go out to search for the truth beyond what is said on their *tee-vee from the South Ossetian war, to the Baxter’s creation and shipping of a bio weapon, to Rolling Stone breaking news about the CDC involved in hiding the fact that vaccines do cause autism, to the Downing Street memos, all of the "fringe" ideas that have been labeled "conspiracies" have come to light over the last 2-3 years, yet it does not even register with these drones as the main stream media does not report the facts, but this is how they label us crazy, kooks, fringe, or the famed Paulastinians (Which I feel is a compliment). My awakening had to have occurred after the Downing Street memos were released to the public, and then the false reporting on the Georgia/Russian conflict when people I work with have family in Russia and I got the truth from those closely involved. You will not convince them by debate, as you cannot debate people that think the media still reports the truth and have the public’s interests in mind. They have to see many lies that directly affect them or they will continue to follow the Medias lead in all they do. You will see this in the 2010 elections while the media propaganda sways public opinion to keep the status quo in office, to the 2012 elections where the elite’s choice will win out over anyone that claims they will represent the people of this nation, or like Ron Paul the peoples candidate will be marginalized and destroyed by the *tee-vee drones the make sure to vote for American Idol, but do not participate in the Presidential elections. Just my opinion, but I feel confident in what I have stated.
*Just so the grammar police do not get off subject and attack, this was done on purpose.
In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot.
~Mark Twain
Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, and set those BRUSH FIRES everywhere you go and in all you do!
"A recovering neocon" I love it!
Good post!
We have a group
http://our.gop.com/Groups/Reformed_Neo_Conservatives
I don't think I actually ever was a Neo Con though. I had just completely fallen into the right vs left paradigm and the talking points and platform of the Republicans appealed to me. So more than anything I was battling the Dems trying to prove them wrong neverminding what 'my team' was doing. I admittedly got sucked into defending things like the wars bc that is what my team was telling me to do. It was TARP that ended up prompting me to find some answers, although before that I had kind of resorted to watching from the stands as both sides seemed to be emerging as clowns. The Left and Right are everywhere, it is seemingly the only choice. It's easy to get focused on how dumb one side or the other is on a particular certian issue and focusing time on it. Can't see the forest for the tree's is how it goes. Anyway they've done a great job convincing the populace that it's a multiple choice question A or B, and most people have little interest in politics so that's good enough for them. I think that is the issue more than most people actually being neo cons.
Anyway please join the group on the link above. I think it helps people convert when they see other people have. People find comfort in #'s.
Joined...
I think your group is a great idea. There are two things we must start doing now, if we want Dr. Paul or another liberty minded candidate to be the next US President:
1) We need get as many Independents, Democrats, Libertarians, Constitutionalists, and all other Parties to register Republican so that they can vote for Dr. Paul in the Primaries.
2) Convert as many Neo-Cons to the Liberty Movement to vote for Ron Paul Republicans in the coming elections.
Ron Paul 2012 for Peace
Ron Paul 2012 for Peace
Thanks!
I've been working on converting people. My mom even told me today 'I not sure I totally agree with him, but I don't think ron paul is a kook anymore'. Shouldn't be long now. Once you realize he isn't a kook everything he says makes more sense than anything any other politition says.