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Revenge or Atonement: What are you seeking in 911-Truth?
Submitted by OctoBox on Sun, 11/22/2009 - 04:20
Revenge will require Corporatist Measures (it will grow gov't) Atonement requires a Voluntary Approach and Forgiveness Which are you for? » |
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I just want full open disclosure
Let the cards fall where they will. I have a strong hunch that it would open some gigantic cans of worms.
Explore Orthodox Christianity
Be great for fishing, smile.
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Revenge
isn't nice! Atonement is something Jesus did. Justice is what I want.
Is the TRUTH just to much to ask???
ShineTheLight: Atonement also means Reconciliation
and an opportunity for forgiveness (letting go).
It's the revenge mechanism that drives us to Corporatism.
Most voting and lobbying is in revenge for what the other side voted and lobbied for.
We are in a Freudian Nightmare of Circular Abdication and Theft (voting and lobbying), smirk.
"Justice" is an opportunity for the truth to be revealed and letting go.
There's no justice in a conviction: Tax payers will have to foot the entire 2 or 3 year proceding (probably 10 or 20 years if "proof" of Bush complicity were involved) -- costing a 100 billion. Also, I estimate $6trillion in reparations -- from families of soldiers, Iraq, and Afganhistan.
All of the above will only grow Gov't
911-Truth (prior to seeking Liberty) is a sure path to Largesse (I mean the latter in a comico-tragic manner)
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Neither ...
I just want complete transparency.
A release of ALL the records.
And regardless of what people say about me, I have always claimed to be a truther.
"The truth is we do not know the truth."
That was the mission statement of the movement at one time.
And I completely agree with that.
If some are prosecuted based on ALL the evidence, then so be it.
Let the chips fall wherever they may.
I do not seek a remedy other than transparency, but others may.
We all have our roles.
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
I think that its safe to argue
that the War for independence was, in essence, a truth movement which certainly resulted in smaller government.
If an investigation found wrongdoing amongst those of our government and we, as a people, decided to adhere to the principles of the Constitution then the UN could impose all the sanctions that they wanted to impose. We would have no (American) legal obligation to comply.
We need to form a more perfect union now
Starting with the secession of Texas.
Truth
I'm all for forgiveness too. I just want the truth, to stop the lies and the manipulation.
For my part, the only kind of "revenge" I'd seek would be along the lines of: those responsible will never have a position of power as they had.
mwiegand: Well said -- hear hear!
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
This is my motivation as
This is my motivation as well. Until we understand the real nature of 9/11, we will not be able to understand the real nature of the "War on Terror" that has been perpetrated for the past nine years. We need to clear the air of all of the lies and deceit and then make rational decisions based on what remains.
I want justice and international cognizance...
... that those responsible will do it again and are actively pursuing our demise. But above all, I WANT JUSTICE!!!
=====================================
"The greatest mystery of all is truth." - Me, 2009
=====================================
"The greatest mystery of all is truth." - Me, 2009
The truth for truth's sake
let the chips fall where they may.
I do warn against hypocracy!...
I always notice people defending terrorists or at least "captives" from the battle field in Afghanistan, saying "IT IS NOT RIGHT TO HOLD THESE PEOPLE WITHOUT A TRIAL!!!!" And many many many other sentences like this....
.. The problem I see is that those same people so badly want Bush's blood for 911 and they also undoubtedly, faithfully, and absolutely unwaivering in their belief that 911 was an inside job and are willing to prosecute those "powers that be" given the chance and power, yet, I thought you believe in "innocent until proven guilty?!"
The other thing that bothers me is that I ALWAYS hear people cry in anger over the blood of "terrorists" and/or Palestinians, Muslims etc (yet, trust me, they could care less about you, boy, I tell ya...),yet I am more angered over the blood of our troops! What about our heros in camoflage? They are the ones that I feel the most pain for when they are trying to protect our country, yet their lives are being wasted by Progressives and Neo Cons! What about priorities here. I DO SUPPORT THE TROOPS! I support them in a way where I want to keep them alive! I want them to go home and see their families and parents!
Just something to ponder, guys (and gals)!
Ron Paul 2012
Ron Paul 2012
Regarding what you said about wanting the troops home...
I doubt that is going to happen as long as 9/11 can be used as the excuse for them being over there.
Not sure if you saw earlier where Obama wants to send more troops over. Here's a link to that thread. http://www.dailypaul.com/node/116322
I don't get it - even your words are wrong
atonement: 1. satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.
By definition, "atonement" would be paying penalties and reparations. And, you are right, trials and imprisonment cost money (However, revenge is something not carried through a justice system - so that term is wrong as well). So, you are presenting a false choice. I truly don't get what you are trying to prove. Are you saying we or the victims should do nothing? That the truth should never be known because it will cost money to get there?
If the Justice Department said: "Hey folks, we would like to prosecute Cheney for war crimes and the mass murder on 9/11. But, we are broke-so please donate using your paypall account" --- I bet they would have ten million in an hour - and Voluntary!
As far as "forgiveness" - I don't believe in that rediculous concept, so there is no way the culprits that committed 9/11 would get a pass from me.
"We are the inheritors of the American Enlightenment, which tells us that Individual Liberty always trumps collectivism in all forms."
www.libertyrestorationproject.org
"We are the inheritors of the American Enlightenment, which tells us that Individual Liberty always trumps collectivism in all forms."
Mohusk: You need to expand your definition a little
Main Entry: atone·ment
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈtōn-mənt\
Function: noun
Date: 1513
1 obsolete : reconciliation
2 : the reconciliation of God and humankind through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ
3 : reparation for an offense or injury : satisfaction
4 Christian Science : the exemplifying of human oneness with God
Forgiveness -- You do it all the time. It could be better phrased as "letting go" -- If someone bumps you in line, if they cut you off.
I mean do you rumenate over every offense.
Have you "let go" of your hurt over Vietnam or are you still gnawing on that bark -- what about WWII or WWI or Slavery. I mean how long do you emotionally chew that cud?
Forgiveness if for the forgivor not for the forgivee (recipient).
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
I"M SEEKING TRUTH
Are you suggesting we allow Newtonian Physics to be rewritten.
I'm for neither of your forced positions.
You're an only child and to be quite honest a moron. You have no life or else you wouldn't be wasting time with such a ridiculous subject.
You are nothing but a ruse in your mind.
Do yourself a favor and do something constructive besides mentally masturbate a point which has no bearing on anything besides your ego.
You seriously made this a topic. I guess you just condone the meaningless slaughter of 3000 citizens American and 1million plus Iraquis so greed can line it's pockets.
Shaking head and walking away.
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/115305
You left out the most important principle - Justice!
!
Ralph Waldo: I had it up there but people got confused
For me Justice is the possibility to Atone -- Atonement must be given voluntarily and not coherced or it is a forced-admission.
Atonement allows for Forgiveness to take place.
Forgiveness allows the forgivor to "let go" and move on.
Justice cannot happen in Corporatism.
911-Truth (no revelation of corruption ever in human history) will not result in Liberty it will result in $6Trillion in reparations and a vote of "no confidence" by the U.N -- The U.S would then be ruled (as it is now secretly) publically by One World Gov't.
End the Fed would have done that to our banking system.
Never has corruption resulted in smaller gov't -- Never once in human history.
If you use "corporatism" to prove 911 you will only get corporatist solutions -- bigger gov't.
So, my argument is we need to abandon all micro movements and focus on "liberty"
Counter-Economics cuts all the profit out from underneath them
----We simply just start living as if we are free now; ninja like in the beginning and as time goes on, less and less covert.
----In liberty there are no "rights" (no voting or lobbying; which is theft or abdication of self-rule anyway)
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Justice is attainable through the court system.
The other two - I'm not sure how you would even know when they had been reached!
There is no court system in a free-society
not a voluntary one that's for sure.
This is not a mediated contract dispute.
Justice is either an opportunity for atonement (reconciliation) and thus Voluntary -- Or it is Theft and Kidnapping (forced results - fines - imprisonment).
The latter only exists in Economic-Fascism or Economic-Fuedalism
----In Corporatism or Capitalism (Marx's Definition).
In a free-society you must protect yourselves -- there are no force-agents as it's a voluntary society and therefore no Authority to Force Conclusions.
If you want 911-Perpetrators brought to justice just understand that it will build ever-larger gov't -- because the means (and society) you are seeking justice in have only Corporatist Court Systems.
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
I am seeking truth about 9/11...hence the title, 9/11 truth
I am seeking truth about 9/11...hence the title, 9/11 truth
Boru: I get you, but that's not how most view it.
Most Truthers believe they have the truth and they have a "goal" -- To expose the "evil doers" using standard Corporatist Measures, hoping that increasing those means will somehow decrease gov't?
Right?
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
They're not "evil doers"
They are evil doers.
Maybe both
do you ever see them do anything that is not evil?
Pseudonym: You lost me on that one *shakes head*
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Have you heard this
http://mises.org/media/1237?silverlight=0
I read your summary of Marx's class analysis below. Hoppe agrees with the analysis but not Marx’s conclusions. Class consciousness is the solution though education.
I thought he answered some of your very real concerns.
All for freedom? Freedom for all!
Free includes debt-free!
I do not agree with Marx's conclusions either
In many ways Marx is the Yin to Rothbard's Yang.
Worker-Sovereignty
vs
Owner-Sovereignty
Mises was right -- Consumer-Sovereignty
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Justice for treason is Constitutonal
It is one important step in defusing these illegal and self destructive wars.
If one want peace work for justice.
All for freedom? Freedom for all!
Free includes debt-free!
I'm not a Constitutionalist -- Not the one we have anyway.
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality