UPDATE!! Please help me help this person understand.

Thanks to everyone for their help.

Whoever wrote that email doesn't seem to understand we live in a capitalist country. There is some pretty deep socialist thinking going on in that person's head. You may be able to convince them eventually but you're going to have to work on the underlying socialist thinking first or else he/she will never understand Ron Paul. Anyone who has a "spread the wealth" mentality is going to be a big welfare lover. Welfare only comes from taxing the people. Ron Paul is the anti welfare state candidate. You have to make this person understand welfare states don't work first.

But don't be at all surprised if you can't convince this person. You can probably convince 5 neo cons to vote for Ron Paul in the time it would take to convince this 1 socialist.

Just saw this one on another thread-show him this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaxdUPNYj2s

On the economic points, Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams are tops.

Here's a recent Williams article:
http://townhall.com/Columnists/WalterEWilliams/2007/12/05/in...

I asked Sowell about the "vanishing middle class" and he showed me how numbers can be fudged. His example was that there are less people making between $35,000 and $50,000... and if you define that range as "middle class", that group is shrinking. The problem is, that doesn't mean the people who are leaving that income bracket are making less money. The graph he showed me showed more people leaving the "middle class" because their incomes were increasing. And yet you can still use "vanishing middle" class as a talking point.

http://www.jimmyliberty.com loves Ron Paul

http://www.ronpaulnation.com/tv.html#ron_paul_a_new_hope

1 The NAFTA highway piece is easy: copious amounts of info available,point to the NAU in general,even without he actual 'highway' being mentioned. Vicente Fox himself has been on Larry King alluding to it [and The Daily Show],in recent months.

2) HEALTH-CARE: A friend of mine asks people: 'What is your definition of 'health care'? B/C that is a slippery slope that almost no-one talks about. Aside from the access to procedures and treatments,or lack thereof under socialist medicine care,there is the question of what falls under healthcare,and what could be implemented,nationwide. ie,mandatory vaccines,etc. As well,send him the link to RP's healthcare freedom position-which virtually no other candidate [again,maybe kuccinich]give's a you know what about-access to truthful info about vitamins and supplements,etc. Other candidates on both sides,want to join CODEX,the european based organization,that would regulate even to the point of garlic and peppermint being considered medicine!!! It really is that extreme-the sovereignty we would be giving up. Of course,if your family member eats burger king everyday,he may not be swayed by this last point.(: but it's worth a mention.

3)Does he really think any of the other candidates,aside from Kuccinich,is going to spread wealth,and if so,how? I would ask him questions about his own stances,if you have not already [and if he has not already offered them]. B/C while he alludes to his beliefs,he does not offer any evidence about how another candidate will address them.

4)This sometimes works for people: MONEY is not the definition of FREEDOM. Many of us do not make alot of money,yet are educated,healthy,happy and creative people. Capitalism/consumerism has done a marvelous job of equating money with social equality and justice. Sure,it helps. Gives power and all. But,clearly,economic socialism alone is always just a stepping stone to capitalism,historically. Economic socialism is not inherently freedom or equality.

5) Does he want to be free? If not,then there may not really be a point in continuing the discussion. I would ask him if he would like to be free to determine his life.
That said,RP has said numerous times that freedom is not perfect; he just believes it is a better approach than the others. There is no panacea.

I have purchased some copies of the DVD "Fiat Empire" which features
RP and may be very useful for bringing intelligent people up to the
point where they can understand how RP's solution would work.

One man I have been working on for almost two years is a Purple Heart
Vietnam veteran who is a registered Democrat and was planning on
voting for clinton up until as recently as late spring. I dropped a
copy if it off at his place sometime ago.

He is an intelligent man with two masters degrees. He is reactionary
and feels ripped-off by the Marine Corps and gets the run-around from the VA (I've taken him to the VA several times and have seen it with my own eyes).

Unfortunately, he doesn't think things through with accurate facts
and that may be the reason for the misfortune of his Socialist/democrat-leaning.

I plan on bringing him to one of our ad hoc Ron Paul meetings as I am sure that he will be inspired by the diversity of our little groups as well as
the fire of our dedication. I have told him, "Imagine this: in the
modest home of a quiet religious couple, a collection of people so
diverse that one could scarcely find them in proximity at any
conceivable social event, gathered together in peace, working with a
common objective: save our country."

He told me as I was last leaving his place, "I have never voted for a republican before." and, "I am a registered Democrat so I don't know if I can
vote in the primary." I clued him in.

I had nearly written him off many times. I met each of his objections over the months with sound theory backed by actual documented proof. I used books, videos, and above all kindness and respect. I never gave up. It was a lot of hard work, but now I hear he is "teaching classes" around town with the information I showed him. While it may have been more effective to go out and talk to other more easily talked to people, the dividends of having him on our side are immense. Ron Paul's message is so powerfull and unifying I am continually astonished and humbled just by virtue of being a part of it.

Sounds like the person is a socialist who does not trust the free market and wants government to regulate and take care of everyone through programs funded by taxes.
Bottom-line - AMERICA IS GOING BANKRUPT. We are in an un-payable (not exaggerating, look at the numbers) debt and we need to tighten our belts. We can't afford more "free government stuff".
Your friend doesn't keep up with government finances does he?

Optimists see the glass is half empty, Pessimists see the glass as half full.... Engineers see the glass is twice as big as it needs to be :) You could expect flying cars from an economy that wanted it. Of course everyone's really scared about crashing into buildings and whatever, but it is actually fairly practical to consider that the infrastructure is this way only because it's been built up to this point.

Ron Paul's strongest stance is to increase freedom in the market, which decreases barriers to entry. Competitive spirit is what drives America... look at the X-Prizes for example. These provide the new model for American R & D since they require large scale investment in competitive technologies. The energy infrastructure is inhibited by an economic system that doesn't require technological adaptation (think solar panel roofing for example). This is the Google/X-Prize economic revolution in a very meaningful way.

The next major thing to hit America's consciousness is the fact that China will be on the Moon in 10 years and we're going to want to build lunar bases to one-up them because we have an expansionist inclination too. Competitive spirit drives everything.

Oh, man, you have a tough one here. I think you need serious prayer. There is no place to start with this guy. He must be for Edwards? If it were my job, I think I would listen and gently tell him the truth on issues slowly and little by little. Perhaps find someone he highly respects who is for Ron Paul. Best of luck to you buddy. I know how it is when you want a family member to come around. I usually pretend like I am not trying to change their mind, but talk to them about what frustrates me that Ron Paul addresses and corrects. And then just hope they hear. Like the Bible says, some can hear and some cannot hear. Not everyone can be a Ron Paul supporter-they can't hear.

Just a few points I like to make about the writer you might want to recognize.

First he calls him Ronnie - which means he is very Anti-Ron Paul

2) Spread the wealth - that means "what are you going to do for me attitude"

3) Actually the percentage of Americans without Health Insurance is only 15.9% http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/factfiles_detail.cfm?issu...

4) Tax laws - thats easy just abolish the IRS - If we bring home the troops from around the world - we will not need an income tax and will still be able to fund all the programs that we did in 2003.

But the main thing your family member needs to understand is all the problems he talks about were caused by NAFTA, GATT, MFN for China etc. basically managed trade that destroyed our industrial base in exchange for cheap labor and lax environmental laws. What happened is this lowered the wage scale, lowered the tax base, and removed millions of jobs that had excellent health care.

As far as the NAFTA highway its real, the state of Oklahoma banned it, and it is designed to bring in more low cost Chinese made goods.

Somehow sounds like your relative has been brainwashed by talk radio

I would turn it around and ask him this:

Do you want other people to take care of you, or do you want to take care of yourself? And if the answer is others, how does he justify forcing other people to pay for his benefits? Remember, charities do much better than forced contributions.

Another thing is, that if your friend needs $100 for health care, by the time $100 has gone through the system (Government) he may only get about $20 of the $100 from tax payers. That doesn't make sense to do it.

Its really just a matter of people who want others to take care of their needs rather to take care of their own needs. You can't really convince someone who believes they want to be taken care of otherwise. At least it will take some serious convincing. They probably never thought of how the system works.

www.ronpaul2008.com
www.teaparty07.com

1. NAFTA, CAFTA AND GATT Have encouraged big corporations to produce outside of the U.S. This is the main reason for the loss of jobs here!

Ron Paul will get out of these regulated (Not Free) trade deals for special interest and recreate an increase in American jobs here at home enhancing our economy toward greater prosperity.

Both parties admit these programs are horrible and yet do nothing to reverse it! Politics as usual needs a jolt for change and Ron Paul is that jolt.

2. Immigration is enhanced by the rewards we offer that in many cases are greater than we americans are allowed. Ron Paul will close these absolutely corrupt policies of encouraging illegal immigration.

3. Ron Paul is the only candidate that will bring our troops home NOW!
not only from Iraq but from most if not all countries around the world saving billions of dollars that can be used here at home and solidify homeland security to its greatest extent. (like China and other nations that secure their borders first.).

under no income tax, there would be no favoritism for the wealthy.

The "superhighway" is about unlimited immigration aka NAU as in European union. Also, they will TAKE that land from Americans and give/sell it to a Spanish/Australian consortium who will collect tolls from us to use it.
The Federal government does not pay for schools. Local property taxes do.

Non intervention (not isolationism) would have saved us a couple of TRILLION dollars in iraq, plus a lot of lives. Plenty of "spread the wealth" possibilities there.

People don't have health insurance because they can't afford it. They can't afford it because hospitals can charge $10,000 for an MRI. Hospitals can charge this because this is what "the market will bear" The market will bear this cost because the government pays a lot of the health care costs, and they can pay anything, as they can take whatever they need from us. If we the people were paying these costs, they would be less, as there would be competition.

Something to think about on the illegal immigration issue - California has to build a new school EVERY DAY to provide schooling for illegal immigrants.
These illegals don't pay taxes

Even if you were to disagree with ALL of the other points, you should realize that the value of our dollar is in a sharp decline. Without some serious changes, not tweaking, there will be a lot of people living "close to the bone" Oil only costs so much because it's denominated in dollars. If it were denominated in Euro's, it would be less expensive then 5 years ago. (not for us though, cause the dollar is worth less.) or another way to think about it. Eggs haven't doubled in price, the dollar is worth half.

is still stealing.

What claim on the wealth of the haves do the have-nots have?

Wealth can only be morally shared in one way: at the discretion of the wealthy who have earned.

Yes, Paris Hilton falls in this category no matter how revulsive it is.

Here you go my friend:

I appreciate and share much of your sense of obligation to help others less fortunate and this is precisely why Ron Paul should be elected president. Do you realize that the Iraq war cost $2.2 Trillion in direct and indirect costs (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1681119,00.html)?. Do you realize that all the Federal Income Tax collected each year goes entirely and only to pay the interest on the Federal Debt while everything else the government provides and does comes from the other forms of taxation (sales, corporate income, tariffs, etc.)? Do you realize that the US has bases in Japan and Europe now more than fifty years after we fought there?

The current financial path our nation is on is leading to inevitable financial bankruptcy similiar to what happened to the USSR. The Federal Debt has gone from $3 Trillion to over $10 Trillion since Bush took office. Unfunded obligations such as Social Security, Medicade and Medicare amount to over $50 Trillion, meaning we have sworn to make $50 Trillion in payments to retirees who are owed it because they paid into FICA all their lives. This $10 Trillion in current debt and $50 Trillion in obligations sums to $60 Trillion in debts and IOU's with which our nation is saddled. The GDP of the US is about $13 Trillion annually. To drive home the point; if you earned $100,000 per year, mimicing the US debt condition would have you with about $500,000 in credit card debts (not morgage bec this $50 Trillion only secured by ability of US govt to tax its people not sell its public buildings) all of which had adjustable interest rates. The adjustable rates are the problem because as you would learn if you attempted to secure a credit card while making only $100k but having $500k in credit card debt; no one would lend you money unless it was at phenomenal rates. The US is rapidly reaching a 'tipping' point where to keep borrowing rates will increase severly. The US must continue to borrow otherwise existing spending on medicare and medicade to our most needy can't continue. Again think, if you owe $500k your payments to the credit card companies begin to amount to more than you earn then you must borrow more money to pay the rent and keep the electricity going. But the more you borrow the more the rate of interest you pay on this new borrowing increases and the less you have towards rent and electricity and thus the more you must then again borrow to meet these bills and around and around it goes. It is called a vicious cycle and this it is this danger which the US is coming dangerously close to becoming trapped. No one at all is willing to mention this building disaster much less act to solve it. That is no one but Ron Paul. His solutions are practical and logically cogent.

Stop paying this interest on the National Debt by adhering to the US Constitutional requirment that forbides anyone but the US government itself from issuing the US currency as was done before 1913 at which time this power was unconstitutionally given to the Fed. All Federal Income tax goes to pay only the interest on the money the Fed prints on behalf of the US Government. Printing money is a function that the Constitution only permits the Government to do itself. Read it yourself in the Constitution, only the government can create money. All our Federal Income Taxes that goes to pay the Fed's interest on this paper it prints and calls 'dollars' and then gives the government could now go to paying for health care for everyone. All simply by following the Constitution.

Stop paying the Trillions being spent in Iraq. We all admit that the reason for going in was wrong and thus the there is no reason for being there other than to save face. We could take these Trillions of dollars that will otherwise be spent in Iraq and bank it for future generations of new children's healthcare. Ron Paul is the only candidate who speaks of bringing the troops home immedietly.

Bring home the millions of soilders we have in the over 800 bases on which we spend over $1.2 Trillon annually http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Global_annual_military_spending_...).

While certainly we need a defense, much of this spending is simply entrenched beauracracy as evidenced by the burgeoning of this spending in spite of the collapse of the USSR and the ascendence of the US as the worlds only superpower. The savings from recognizing this reality would result in billions being redirected to providing food and shelter for the homeless in America. Ron Paul is the only candidate who speaks of recognizing our insatiable appetite to be nation builders and the world's policeman and given the opportunity would substantially reduce our imperialistic global presence and use the resulting savings here at home.

For all these hard factually supported reasons, you can see that we both share the same values and we both then should agree that only Ron Paul makes sense in 2008.

The Jamestown colonists almost starved to death because the "gentlemen" in the group refused to work. The few people who were willing to find food could not support the whole colony. Not until the "no work, no eat" rule was established did the colony have enough food. After that they thrived and prospered.

When the Puritans (pilgrims) came to Massachusettes in 1620, they had an essentially socialist system whereby one was expected to work as hard as one could, but to share the fruits of one's labor with the other colonists. For the first few years the people literally starved to death. When the socialist rules were repealed, the colony prospered.

Here's the rundown:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo86.html

"From the folks that brought you FEMA, the TSA, the DMV, the IRS, comes universal health care!"

It seems that your friend has taken the knee-jerk path to solving problems: government. The biggest problem with this kind of thinking is that 99% of the time it is a displacement of responsibility. Rather than taking the initiative and donating to charity hospitals or helping the needy, people believe it is the purpose of government to take us from cradle-to-grave. "We need to help Darfur!" is cried from the mountaintops by people everywhere. What I fail to see is a significant number of these people donating their own money or organizing themselves to travel over there and save the day. If they really cared, they would act, rather than talking to make themselves feel better. My own rants aside, your friend has a misconception about the purpose of our government:

The purpose of government is to defend the people and protect their rights. Period. This was the intention of our founding fathers, and it is the purpose of our Constitution.

The inequity of the wealth distribution in America is much more the result of our unconstitutional monetary and taxation policies. Ron Paul is advocating the legalization of alternative currencies that can't be depreciated in value at the will of a few bankers (The Federal Reserve). Their inflationary tactics temporarily boost our economy and make the rich on wall street richer (exports go up) and the poor even more poor. What you need to do is point out that when the Federal Reserve creates more money and inflation rises by 5%, people who have saved money or are on fixed incomes are LOSING 5% of their money.

As far as taxation, Ron Paul is advocating removing the ENTIRE tax burden on Americans, not just altering the existing flawed and discriminating tax code. Suddenly, when people have 30% of their money back, they can afford more than "beans and rice" and can afford to be generous to those in need.

As far as education, ask your friend where the best education in the United States resides. If they say "Private Schools" they win. The government is inherently bad at spending our money, and if this person believes that adding more money to the equation is the solution to the problem, I don't think there's much hope for them. The free market delivers far better education than the public school system ever has or ever will. Competition ultimately produces the best teachers, and those teachers get paid more at private schools. Ron Paul has proposed bills that would give tax breaks to families that want their children to go to private school as well as tax breaks for teachers. And here's a novel idea: if those families were not paying federal income tax at all, perhaps they could afford to send their children to get the best education around?

This person is right. Education is everything. If they would take the time to educate themselves on the free market, learn about our existing monetary policies, and learn about Constitution, they might turn the corner. Otherwise, I recommend Europe, they do pretty well in the years between fascist leaders.

You have to let them have that good feeling you had when you first heard Ron Paul, don't take that away by explaining him. Monetary Policy can fix all the ill effects we have in are economy, but getting people to understand it is like asking them to do math. So here is a good example to get somebody's curiosity going.
In 1964 when the silver dollar was still used you could buy, with that dollar a little over 4 gallons of gas. Obviously that one dollar will not buy you 4 gallons of gas today, but if you take what that dollar is worth in Silver, it will still buy you a little over 4 gallons of gas. So, the question is, what went down in value the dollar or the silver?
Preach Inflation and how it is taking away the American Dream. Today me and my wife work 6 days and over 60 hours a week, live within our means, and are just paying the bills. Fifty years ago I could have been working to support her and some kids. What Happened ? and Who is the only one talking about this ? Then let them listen !!!

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

It does seem to me that all of your friends fears, and complaints, are directly from big government, and foreign policy. Under bigger government, and more taxes, the middle class will soon be gone all together. It is not my place to work for my family, and barely get by, so I can work 2 months out of the year to support someone else's family. American do spread the wealth, but it should never be by force.

I'm sorry, but this vision of Ron Paul as the savior of America doesn't fit with my thinking.

Answer #1

First, Ron Paul is not the saviour of america. He's the spokesperson for freedom and liberty. Ron Paul didn't convince all of these people to rally behind some eccentric beliefs. He speaks the truth and the people have latched on to him as their spokesman. The cult label is one of absurdity. People are enthusiastic that someone running for the highest office in the land is speaking the truth....their truth. What is you're way of thinking?

I'm a more of "spread the wealth" mentality. I think you have to have lived "close to the bone" to appreciate the inequity that exists in America today. With some 40% of Americans without health insurance a country of totally free enterprise simply means that more people would be without.

Answer #2

Ron Paul has struggled to get to where he is at today. Not only you or any other american. He understands hard work. That's the key to understanding the "spread the wealth" mentality or doctrine. Those who work hard are robbed of the fruits of their labor in todays society. One should be paid for what they have earned and worked hard for. Not redistributed among those who do the minimum and expect the world to be given to them on a silver platter. Today, we reward those that do the minimum. This implies that one can do little to help themselves because they will be coddled by the government who will take from others in order to appease their lack of initiative, also known as laziness. It doesn't force them to notice the truth of life in general. You get what you put into it. No more and no less. Have you ever tried completing a task in a group effort? Did everyone pull their weight?

I like beans and rice but would not want to be forced to exist on it (pet food might be more nutritious). Why do you think so many Mexicans
want to come to the US?

Answer #3

Beans and rice are a highly nutritional diet. Much better than McDonalds or any other fast-food chain. Lack of food is not the reason Mexicans cross our border.

Rice: is an extremely healthy food for a number of reasons. Rice is a complex carbohydrate, which means that it contains starch and fiber.
Complex carbohydrates are digested slowly, allowing the body to utilize the energy released over a longer period which is nutritionally efficient. Rice has low sodium content and contains useful quantities of potassium, the B vitamins, thiamin and niacin. An average portion of rice (50g) provide about 11% of the abut estimated average daily requirement of protein. On portion also has only 245 kcal. Those looking to reduce their fat and cholesterol intakes can turn to rice because it contain only a trace of fat and no cholesterol. Rice is also gluten free, so suitable for coeliacs, and it is easlily digested, and therefore a wonderful food for the very young and elderly.
Black Beans:Black beans are a very good source of cholesterol-lowering fiber, as are most other legumes. In addition to lowering cholesterol, black beans' high fiber content prevents blood sugar levels from rising too rapidly after a meal, making these beans an especially good choice for individuals with diabetes, insulin resistance or hypoglycemia. When combined with whole grains such as brown rice, black beans provide virtually fat-free high quality protein. You may already be familiar with beans' fiber and protein, but this is far from all black beans have to offer.

Two major factors- very high birth rate and an extremely skewed economy with a few very wealthy and an enormous number of exceedingly poor people. Do we want that in our country?

Answer #4

We don't want that in our country, however you assume it's not already here. This is the current system, today, all over the world. The "elite", as they're called, have manipulated the people since the beginning of time. This is why Ron Paul does not want to bow down to the global elite. He understands that a global bureaucracy is no better than a national bureaucracy, in fact, it's worse. This is a subject that requires some personal research and can't be explained in a few lines. I hope that you research this topic further.

As I understand national demographics, the middle class in America has slipped downward significantly during the past 5 or so years. My pat answer used to be "Education"- the higher the educational level of the country, the lower the birth rate, and the more equitable the income levels. Under Republicans the tax laws have strongly favored the wealthy at the expense of the middle class and the poor.

Answer #5

Have you ever heard of the "inflation tax"? Ron Paul wants you to have all of your money, including the money that you've already saved. As Benjamin Franklin said: "A penny saved is a penny earned". I proclaim Ron Paul to be an "expert" in the field of economics and he has explained this very well many times. You can visit RonPaul2008.com and hear what Ron Paul has to say on taxes and the inflation tax. It's worth reading....I promise! Also, you are comparing Ron Paul to other Republicans, not ot mention George W. Bush. He is the total opposite of these people. Which is why many love him so. You can see the difference for yourself, if you spend just a few minutes reading Ron Paul's beliefs.

Consider the number of new millionaires created under this administration. An isolationist, less government president certainly would not help that problem.
Sorry, but I think Ronnie is not the boy for the job, the cultism not
withstanding. By the way, the "superhighway" is the existing US Interstate system which, admittedly, needs to be widened now, NAFTA or not.

Answer #6

The plan of the super-highway, as always in these schemes, is to get the taxpayer to foot the bill, and then sell it for a fraction of the price to a private company. Then these private companies can make the rules on their roads that go through our cities and towns. GWB and gang, enacted a plan to allow Mexican truckers to pass through the U.S.A. without any "cargo checks" or inspections. They did this on labor day of this year. What a slap in the face to american truckers and the working people. NAFTA does nothing but widen the desparity between the rich and poor. Again, a large subject that requires personal research. The answers are out there...if you look for them.

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism."

-George Washington

From experience working in the inner-cities, nothing keeps people in poverty more than entitlements and "sharing the wealth". If people are given "just enough" there isn't as much motivation to better themselves or take a chance. And "just enough" isn't enough to make a better life for themselves or their children.

From experience working in 3rd world countries, there is a huge gap in wealth because of government. Government favors the rich at the expense of the poor.

In both cases these people are slaves to the state.