Would you support abolition of Fractional Reserve Banking?

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I believe that getting rid of the Fed is only 2% of the problem. Even if we got rid of the Fed but still had a Fractional Reserve system either through state banks like pre 1913 or non-government sanctioned private banks acting in a similar capacity we would still have horrendous business cycles. It's like rabbits on an island. They eat until the grass is exhausted and then the population collapses. Then the grass grows back and the cycle continues. Substitute people for rabbits and credit for grass and we have the same situation. The problem is credit.

The whole system runs on greed. People expect to put money in the bank and earn interest at zero risk and have access to that money the entire time. That is the bait the fractional reserve bankers use to entice us. What we need is a system where if you deposit money in a bank they either: a) Do not loan out the money and charge you a fee for safe keeping or b) loan it out at interest and you have no access to it until the loan is repaid. This would be %100 reserve banking at all times totally honest no fraud.

Any thoughts on this?

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Check Out This Essay On "USURY"!

In my opinion, fractional reserve lending is not the problem. No laws containing usury limits are.
http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/articles/1998_usury.htm

beesting

Fraud is the problem.


There are two core fraudulent practices in our banking system:

1) Fractional reserve lending - which results in the counterfeiting and lending of the money supply by ten times the actual money in existence.

2) Fiat currency - which allows outright counterfeiting of the money to any amount.

Counterfieting used to be....

...punishable by death in this Country. I think it should be again, and all fraudulent Bankers who create credit from thin air should be prosecuted for counterfieting in a Court of Law. Judged by a jury of their peers and the sentence carried out upon conviction.

short answer: yes

long answer: i would look even further to permanently remove 'money' from our society as well.

there has to be a way where everyone is free AND all needs are met. i don't know how yet but one day...

The slogan press on has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race. No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave.

- Calvin Coolidge

Fractional Reserve Banking is fraud.

Fractional Reserve Banking is fraud and I support anti-fraud laws.

The real questions is would allowing fractional reserve banking interfere with the liberty of others that support the non fractional reserve practice, as well as supporters fiat over a commodity backed currency. I think the practice of fractional reserve does interfere with the liberty of honest money. Here are some thoughts that come to mind, but please understand that I am not an expert, but these are my opinions based on research to date:

It is not necessary to rely on fractions of reserves for savings or fractions of capital to have access to credit.

Sound money in saving and loans makes sense. In addition to sound non-fractional banking, I support hard money backed by real assets. Typical debit and check transactions could be processes similar to today, or electronically but there would actually be something in the bank. Gold and/or Silver would back dollars and like today processing fees are split by both consumers and merchants. In my opinion electronic debit would be more popular than small credit based transactions, as credit would be more likely used in investments and large transactions requiring capital.

Commodity based credit is not an issue because there is collateral to liquidate. Investment loans or credit is not an issue with sound money practice, as people tend to take risk with their savings to create more capital. The market controls interest rates based on risk. People and investment companies have the fear of failure to balance the greed.

There are many aspects to banking and investing, but the first point is fractional reserve is fraud. Another point is the importance of a commodity back currency for stability in regards to purchasing power. The money supply can increase as real capital grows but either more gold or silver have to be stored in the bank vault and/or the value of the commodity would rise. Like Ron Paul mentioned in End The Fed, "You cannot simply stimulate the economy by dropping gold from helicopters".

Laws against fraud would prevent fractional banking. The very concept of fractional reserve is based on fraud. The real question is does the practice of fractional reserve interfere with another’s liberty, and it seems to me that it does.

I do think competitive currency is a good thing and that it is a good angle to compete with the FED, but ultimately it is time to audit and end the federal reserve system and transition to a realistic monetary system for American people and the globe. Gold has been an international currency for thousands of years. It is more likely the system will collapse and the fork in the road from there is another interesting situation.

The scope I am trying to focus on is that fractional reserve banking equals fraud. Moneychangers long ago realized that they always had more gold deposits than they had customers exchanging receipts for the gold. It became a regular practice for early bankers to write more gold receipts than they had gold, or commit fraud.

The practice leads to the fractional reserve banking of today. I also wonder how many crooks are realizing the same thing the old moneychangers did and are selling more gold receipts than they have gold on hand.

In my opinion fractional banking is NOT a liberty because you do not have the liberty to commit fraud. I have entertained the idea that some folks could run ponzi scheme banks and people have the freedom of choice, bur it seems to me it would be no different than illegal ponzi schemes today. I like to remind myself that what I consider fraud may not be considered fraud by others. Fractional banking is like selling something you do not have and there is no liberty in that. It is fraud.

I would not participate in fractional reserve, but would fractional reserve interfere with non fractional sound money? If another person or intuition practices something that does not directly impact me then my liberty is not at issue. I suspect having fractional reserve schemes in the mix would interfere with my liberty via systemic risk, and trying to compete with poney money, and I do not care to care to undergo the consequences of allowing the two to compete. I want sound non fractional money supply with a hard asset backing it.

As a hard money advocate I simply disapprove of the whole fractional reserve practice, but I do not want to interfere with ones liberty either. If these people collectively agree to the practice in fractional reserve banking then it would happen on a black market benefiting the people who get the money first. It would also be a crime, just like it is today to run black market money based pyramid scheems. I am not taking about the legal multi-level marketing pyramids that sell a service or commodity to get around the laws against ponzi schemes, although I choose not to participate in multi-level marketing pyramids either.

I oppose fiat, be it fractional or not. All money needs to be backed by a hard asset like gold. I see no reason it would impose on others liberty to make it law that no bank can practice fractional reserve and all money is backed by a commodity. For example you could have a bimetallic commodity backing the currency like the constitution requires and use both gold and silver. With industrial uses for both gold and silver, but to my knowledge more industrial use in silver it gets tricky to determine the exchange rate of dollars for gold and silver but ultimately the people in the free market decide.

The FDIC creates another moral hazard with banks today, because bankers are not as concerned with a run on the bank. The money will be available to depositors, however the paper will be worth less because the money supply had to increase to cover the fraction. If everyone shows up at once, or even with large independent withdrawals, one may have to wait for their money as the bank may not have all the FRNs on hand, but the bank will get the depositor some fresh FRNs right off the press.

In conclusion, fractional reserve banking is NOT a liberty because it is fraud. The second point is that money is one half of every transaction, so in order for it to be sound it needs to have real value or be backed by a commodity.

-------

BTW, I watched a documentary on stupidity a while back. It is available free on Google video, but the excerpt in the link below was very entertaining. Check it out:

"Ignorance is bliss" - Trevor Strong

Fractional Reserve Banking is Risk

And risks are allowable in a free society. There is nothing wrong with permitting people to take risks with their own money. Of course, fractional reserve policies would have to be clear and explicit, and any effort to conceal such policies would be punishable as fraud.

LXXI BC: Ego sum Spartacus // MDCCCLVII: I am Dred Scott // MCMVL: Ich bin Anne Frank // MMX: Je suis Assange // MMXI: Ik ben von NotHaus

No, the act of lending money that does not exist is fraud.

There's no way to justify it.

A contract to commit fraud is fraudulent and unenforceable.

YES!...and I repeat...

YES! I absolutely would support such a law.

It's important to remember...

There are 2 types of deposits...

1. Demand Deposits (checking and savings accounts where your money is available on demand).

2. Time Deposits (CDs or other accounts where your money can not be accessed for a mutually agreed amount of time).

ONLY TIME DEPOSITS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE LOANED OUT BY THE BANKS. THAT WOULD SOLVE ALL BANKING LIQUIDITY ISSUES AS THE BANKS WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE DEPOSITOR'S MONEY AVAILABLE.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

Yes I agree.

Simply stated too. It's not complicated.

I support abolishing abolition

Fractional reserve banking ended with the end of gold and silver money anyway. Banks ended then too. Currency-generation and collection centers opened in their place. It's 90% blips on a computer these days; how can you not have enough of those to cover more of those?

So, you're in favor of fractional reserve blips?

Fractional reserve lending is fraud whether it's blips or gold.

I'm not in favor of blips or banks

I hold the account holders responsible. Banking is a scam. Why are folks surprised when the scammers pull a fraud?
I just paid $6 to cash a check. Banks are just criminal operations from top to bottom. There is NO good reason to associate with them.

Banks can provide valuable services and lending.

The problems are that fractional reserve lending and fiat currencies are fraudulent.

If those could be prohibited, or our Constitution enforced, then banks would serve a legitimate purpose.

What would an honest bank have to loan out?

I can't think of any valuable services a bank could provide.

Money on time deposit or capital.

Also all of the typical services like checking, safe deposit, etc.

There's no difference in services people would want if the fraud was eliminated.

Has Anybody Reading Been To A Swap Meet?

Garage sale, barter fair, flea market, or growers market?

If you have and paid attention, you would have seen many money substitutes used as money, along with frn's.

From reading the posts below, it seems we Americans have been accustomed to not fully understanding the U.S. Constitution !

The laws concerning money stated in the Constitution apply to ""States"" and the "Federal" government, only.

We can and in some places, already are using "Competing Currencies! "
Does anyone get arrested for using poker chips for money in the casinos? Do some casinos extend credit to some people, without getting shut down?

In my opinion, the only reason we are tricked into using a fractional reserve bank, is because that bank claims to have everyone's money protected by government insurance called FDIC insurance.

A pawn shop often does what a bank does by lending money for items, at a certain rate of interest.
Should this be outlawed?
Not in my opinion, if people understand completely the rules they agree to when borrowing or even lending things or money, so be it.

It's when lenders take unfair advantage of some people who don't understand the practice of lending, borrowing, interest rates, compound interest, or IRS's ever changing and complicated IRS regulations, that major problems arise.

Listen to what Ron Paul says:
End the Fed,,,Abolish the IRS,,,understand contracts before signing them,,,and use money that has no liability attached to it.

beesting

HELL yes!

.

"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot." -Mark Twain

Getting rid of the fractional

Getting rid of the fractional reserve system gets rid of credit. First, the dollar would drop to nothing, resulting in a decentralized exchange system from which natural resources would dictate the value of currency. The incentive to live beyond ones means becomes grounded and local banks would restore financial transactions. The technology sector would drop, the government would drastically shrink leaving local markets to facilitate capital flows. Eventually technology would revolve and grow at a proper rate consistent with our knowledge of bioregionalism.

First thing to do would be to abolish the FED
Second thing to start a Permaculture oriented Republic

Hayek is to Mises as Holmgren is to Mollison

The role of a farmer, in Fukuoka's mind, is an observer, not an intervener, of the natural order in his/her particular landscape. How is that any different than Hayek in regards to Economics?

if i was

taking a test and the analogy posed to me was

Hayek is to Mises as Holmgren is to _______

i think i would fail the test.

But congratulations on winning the obscure sentence of the year award.

To the OP: i don't know about that, but fractional reserve banking would probably be okay if done on a smaller scale. It is a fight to save for another day since it requires reading 1000 page texts to understand the subject.

It's actually pretty simple.

You can't loan what you don't have.

A one straw revolution need not be the last straw.

But sometimes is need one straw to get started.

I agree with the general concepts. But technology need not falter, as government interference or fraudulent banking practice (business and government married in the Federal Reserve Act of 1913) creates waste and encourages foolish investments and gigantism. The Boom is followed by a Bust and unsustainable activities are eliminated.

With a sound money individuals will still make foolish and unsustainable choices, but without a central driving force, such as Michigan's Wildcat Banks of the 1830s or the Federal Reserve since 1913, activities will tend to be random acts of individuals, some will fail some will not. Overall growth and development will be optimal given the environmental conditions.

On average the Boom-Bust cycle is wasteful and on average is less productive and sub-optimal. In this last boom, for example, many tons of scrap was sent to landfills because of the manipulated wage-prices structures.

I believe we can use nature's examples to create man-made technologies that are viable in their own way. Technologies built on sound money need not be any less creative or imaginative than our bubble built technologies.

Stonehenge might be an example as well as the Great Mosques and Cathedrals. It would be interesting to consider the economics of their construction.

Thinking out loud.

Free includes debt-free!

No.

I support the abolition of the FED, FDIC, IRS, FDA, CIA, DHS, ect....

Yes, and ...

Yes, again!

I agree with abolishing

I agree with abolishing fractional reserve banking. This is only a part of the problem. Besides abolishing fractional reserve banking, we need to:

1. Eliminate the Federal Reserve, or any other national bank under another name. Interest rates need to be set by the Market.

2. Return to honest money. That is, money that is backed by gold, or some other commodity. Otherwise, what we use as money is not really money, it is currency.

3. The budget must be balanced. This can best be accomplished by phasing out all unconstitutional government agencies, bureaus, departments, programs and laws.

4. Recognition by Congress that the Executive has no power to legislate by "executive order". The same goes for the courts. All legislative power is in the hands of a Congress - and you can quote me on that.

5. Repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment which makes the welfare/warfare state possible.

In essence, prosperity is predicated on a return to Constitutional government.

Fractional Reserve Lending is a Myth

Fractional reserve lending has always been a myth - I think it like many other money myths was meant to confuse and obfuscate reality.

Here is my first article of evidence:

Money Multiplier Chart Federal Reserve

If you view the current money multiplier chart shown above, you will be surprised to see that the actual money multiplier has fallen below 1 indicating that there are more than 100% reserves on hand - there is no fractional lending taking place.

But wait, it gets even more crazy. There has never been fractional lending because in actuality, 100% of the money lent by banks is created rather than partially recycled with reserves.

There are two ratios that determine if and how much a bank may create as loans or for their own account. It is up to regulators to ensure that banks maintain the required minimum ratios.

1. Capital Ratio - is the ratio of a bank’s capital (equity) to a risk-weighted sum of the bank's assets. I think the weightings are 0 for reserves, 0 for government securities, 0.2 for loans to banks, and 1.0 for ordinary loans. The BIS (Bank of International Settlements) has established a minimum capital ratio of 8% but I am not sure if it is currently used by the Fed.

2. Leverage Ratio - is the ratio of a bank's equity to the unweighted sum of its total assets. I think the required minimum is 3 - 10%, depending on the size of the bank. The reserve ratio is the ratio of a bank's reserves (deposits at the Fed plus vault cash) to its demand deposits, i.e. checking deposits.

(A) = Assets, (C) = Capital, (L) = Liabilities, (R) = Reserve ratio

When a bank issues a loan, it's assets (A) and liabilities (L) increase equally. It's reserve ratio (R) decreases (R/L) but the capital remains the same (C = A - L) which causes a reduction in the capital ratio (C/A). Banks with an adequate capital ratio may lend without enough reserves. If a bank has a profitable lending opportunity, it will issue the loan and then borrow reserves later if needed.

And here is another obscure truth, banks may create money for their own accounts for investment purposes. According to Ellen Brown, "thirty percent of the new money created by banks, with accounting entries, is invested for their accounts" (Federal Reserve Statistical Release - H.8).

The problem is not that banks may create money in some theoretical fractional multiplier, the problem is that the banks may create all the money they want for free. And we back up every dollar that they profitably create.

Larry

END the FED before it ENDS US

Your math is wrong because you aren't using the right

equation.

The accounting equation is: Assets (A) = Liabilities (L) + Equity (E)

(another term for Equity is Capital(C))

Your Capital Ratio is an Equity : Asset ratio as you noted.

The hitch comes in because deposits are NOT assets (A) of the bank, but rather Liabilities (L).

Thus if you make a deposit you are increasing only one side of one side of the equation.

Since Assets (A) have not changed, and the equation MUST be in balance, (after all, it is an "equation") then a corresponding REDUCTION entry MUST be made to Equity (E) aka Capital (C).

So now your Capital Ratio is lower because while Assets remained unchanged, Equity had to drop to compensate for the increased Liabilities.

If Capital ratios are to be maintained by law, then that means Assets have to then be increased also to offset the Liabilities instead of a reduction in Capital (Equity).

This is done via lending. Capital is decreased in the loan, but Assets are increased by not only the amount of the loan, but also the interest payable. Thus there is a net increase in Assets. This has to be done repeatedly in order to absorb as much of the increase in Liabilities through a deposit as possible.

Since the Equity entry on the books is a mere fiction as it is only an accounting entry, and does not represent actual physical Capital, essentially bank Assets are created out of thin air, BECAUSE of a deposit.

This is precisely how deposits create new currency via fractional reserve ratio requirements. The math eventually does approximate the more simplistic model that G. Edward Griffin illustrates. (even he noted it was simplistic and not entirely accurate in process but it was in end result)

You hit it right that it was the Capital Ratio that was involved, you just got the equation wrong.

Loans versus Deposits

My equation is correct for a bank loan while you are adding a new deposit, thus the seemingly different equations. And, yes, a customer deposit becomes a liability to the bank but that is outside my lending equation.

The projected interest is handled via an "earnings forecast" that compliments the balance sheet. This gets more complicated as the bank is affected different if the customer makes a payment from an outside account or internally through a bank account held by the lender.

The capital ratio is the ratio of a bank’s equity to a risk-weighted sum of the bank's assets. Different weighting factors are used depending on how a bank handles a loan. For example, reserves and government securities have a factor of 0 while loans to banks are weighted at 0.2 and ordinary loans are weighted at 1.0.

My point was that fractional reserve lending, as traditionally defined as a multiplier of reserves, does not take place. Banks do not need to keep an implied amount of reserves on hand, they only need to maintain capital and leverage ratios at the end of the month.

Another factor that makes the money multiplier (fractional lending model) irrelevant is that customer deposits are NOT considered as reserves. Reserves are exclusively created by the Fed and they are held either in a bank vault (cash and coins kept as a customer convenience) or at the banks Federal Reserve account.

So, why are reserves even needed? Technically, they are not needed by banks and in most countries, for example Canada, they are not used. One bad thing about bank reserves is that we (taxpayers) are now paying interest which is totally unfair when understands the process.

One other important point...reserves and ratios are handled different depending on whether it is a commercial, investment or money center bank. A new trend has been for investments banks to operate as both commercial and investment banks which further complicates matters.

In conclusion, fractional reserve lending is very misleading as banks create 100% of the money used in making loans. Fractional lending implies that banks are using depositors money, or their reserves, when making a loan. This of course, is not true.

Larry

END the FED before it ENDS US

Exactly!

Exactly!

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

why are you here?

No one believes a word you type.
Republicae destroys you EVERYTIME.
So yea you might be much smarter then me but I DONT BELIEVE YOU even a little
YOU GOT SERVED DR CUBBYBLUB

Don't believe...question everything

Check out my links and stated position, then be specific if you disagree.

Our monetary system is WIDELY misunderstand because it is an indoctrination process rather then education.

Challenge me specifically on what I have wrote - I can back up everything.

The fact is that factional reserve lending is a myth, it does not happen - you've been lied to and bought it despite the evidence. Look at the level of reserves currently held and you will find a disconnect.

Better yet, can you or any any others here define what bank reserves are?

END the FED before it ENDS US