-29 votes

I support full body scans at airports.

I see some people confusing a libertarian philosophy with having to be against this. But that's not true.

If the airlines had complete control, without government interference, they would install the full body scan equipment if it helped ticket sales. I think if you polled most people now, they would support full body scans.

What we should question GOVERNMENT involvement, not whether searches should take place. Because they would happen anyway under total private control. And it wouldn't be a matter of your personal rights, but a matter of the airlines' private property rights.

If the government is requiring something that the airlines would require anyway if government stayed out of the way, it's not that big of a deal in terms of violation of personal rights. It's simply a shoddy simulation of what would happen if government didn't get involved. The protection would probably simply be better and cheaper, if government weren't involved.

Dr. Paul is adamant that the airlines could protect us better than government. If that's so, then the scrutiny and searches before entering an airplane would probably be even be MORE strict and invasive, though probably more time efficient.

Another thing to look at is that 9/11 posed a national security threat, so there is a case for some government involvement if there is a national security threat, but of course not searches without consent. But making the search constitutional would simply be a matter of the airline posting a sign saying that they require you to go through the government searches in order to board a plane. Then, this would just be them exercising their property rights. I bet that if you asked them now, they would probably say they DO consent to the searches to keep their passengers safe. So the constitutionality would be a non-issue.

Just something to think about, for those who were thinking that living in a free society means you have to accept being unsafe on an airplane.



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This guy hasn't been active since 2010.

So what brought this to the forefront?

If You Do Not Understand Liberty, Go Away!!!

If you are a living, breathing entity their is no such thing as "safety" so their is never a good reason to give up liberty. You could search every person on a plain and have it shot out of the air, so what have you gained? You have to accept that you are never "safe", you are just less free. I would rather arm the crew and leave passengers alone. You are right, private entities are not bound by the Constitution and can have their own rules but I do not want to deal with businesses who want to search my body. It is a concept of liberty that you obviously do not understand.

Guess I'm really not understanding

why these very old discussions keep popping up. When one does, and you are the first to click on it, there aren't any 'new' comments that would have drug it up out of nowhere. Strange.

From five years ago...

Really?

Séamusín

Wow. I'm shocked at the response.

While the poster's statement that "most agree with body scans" is certainly a point worth debating, his statements MAY be fundamentally right. If--as Ron Paul has advocated countless times--airlines are responsible for their own security instead of the gov't, one or more or perhaps all MAY require body scans as an invocation of their property rights. We don't know how the free US airline marketplace will be in 2014, since we've never seen it. I tend to agree with those who speculate that there will be non-body scan options at least with some airlines. But the self-righteous author blasting is uncalled for. He raises a point worth considering, even if he's not 100% spot on.

Shame on many of you for failing to disagree with respect. If the libertarian movement is going to move forward, we need to improve on this.

No Issue w/ most of what you wrote

I agree that they should be up to the airlines, not the government. That way the consumer could vote w/ their dollars as to which airline they wanted to take. If one airline's safety screening policy were too invasive, they would lose business and their reputation would take a hit. If you (the OP) prefer body scanners (and it's certainly your right to feel that way) then you'd count as one "consumer vote" for that level of security.

The subject of my post was "No Issue w/ most of what you wrote". Below is what I do take issue with. You just made the case to legitimize almost everything that is going on right now w/ airport security. You know in your scenario that the government would pressure airlines to do what the government wants or else face fines, etc.

Another thing to look at is that 9/11 posed a national security threat, so there is a case for some government involvement if there is a national security threat, but of course not searches without consent. But making the search constitutional would simply be a matter of the airline posting a sign saying that they require you to go through the government searches in order to board a plane. Then, this would just be them exercising their property rights. I bet that if you asked them now, they would probably say they DO consent to the searches to keep their passengers safe. So the constitutionality would be a non-issue.

Body scanners safe to health are not an issue for me

The prime issue for me is government ID being required to move around. I do not want government ID at all and I don't want someone interfering with my path of travel and extorting me into using the identification issued by an organization that forces the removal of my privacy by tagging me with an identity and then forcing me to use that ID for EVERYTHING.

This is slavery, extortion and no different than fascist and communists who have done the same thing in their criminality because it requires involuntary servitude and requires entering into a non-negotiable contract with them that has no benefit to me and only to my detriment. If this extortion and slavery were treated equally in law as all other forms of extortion and slavery as a felony act then we would actually be living within the law.

ID is extortion and 'let me see your papers' used to be how Americans would laugh at the bs other countries put up with but now most think one is crazy if they don't want to be required to have government papers to move around. There is maximum security in privacy and if you support id you are supporting extortion, slavery and the destruction of privacy by others as being lawful activities.

The most powerful Law of Nature is Time. It is finite and we all will run out of it. Use this Law to your advantage, for it offers you infinite possibilities...

they are for others

By Dr. Mercola

The U.S. Transportation Security Administration (TSA) first began using advanced imaging technology in airports nationwide in 2007. But just how "tested," and how safe, are the TSA's backscatter machines?

The TSA1 and Department of Homeland Security will tell you they've been extensively tested and that these machines are very safe. But if that's true, why did both houses of Congress file bills this year demanding that the TSA and DHS produce proof of their safety claims with an independent laboratory study?2,3

Could it be that Congressmen – who often fly as part of their jobs – are worried that maybe those safety claims are not as documented as the TSA claims?

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/08/2...

Fine.

I'll fly on an airline that doesn't waste its money on the bullshit security show.
And in a couple years you will too once your's goes out of business because it can't compete with companies who treat their customers better, get you where you're going faster, and can offer cheaper fairs.

ChristianAnarchist's picture

I support traveling nude...

I support traveling nude...

Beware the cult of "government"...

Everyone has the right to accept body scanners and all

types of body searches. It's what the Government is counting on, every day govenment intrudes a little more into all our lives. America is turning into a socialist country, because sheeple like you are willing to give up your liberty for safety. But in reality your not really any safer.

BTW, you haven't listened very good to Dr. Paul, he was constantly warning of blowback from our intrusion of foreign lands. If we just stayed home we wouldn't need all this crap for us to feel safe.

Gold standard: because man can not be trusted to control his greed

Well ....first of all

your statement is based on a false premise. 911 was not a real terrorist attack. 911 was a false flag operation carried out by rogue elements of several gvts.

But even if 911 was a real attack, why should we be willing to be groped or x-rayed without some cause, just to board a plane? Isn't this the home of the brave and the land of the free?

So what freedoms are you willing to give up to prevent something from happening that likely will never happen to even .0001% of Americans?

Did ya know that thousands of people die every year from slipping in the shower

Thousands did every year from falling off roofs

Tens of thousands die in hospitals from errors by the medial staff

Thousands of babies die each year in crib deaths

And on and on and on...

But I do support you having your testicles placed in a vice...after all, doesn't appear that you are using them.

In Addition,

Since 9-11, More people have died at the hands of their protectors (police) than were killed during Terror strike on America! Bush was ironically correct they (The Elite) Do hate us for our freedoms . Right to arms, right to free speech, constitutional rights in general.

What makes you think

that if you polled most people now that they would support full body scans? I think that you have drunk too much kool-aid if you are in favor of this lunacy.

Weird- private searches better than gov't searches?

Do you support full body scans at malls, where terrorists might also pop out and get you? How about schools? How about restaurants?

They are everywhere, you know. The crazies.

I agree, it's not about us versus the government, it's about us versus EVERYONE. Since you cannot trust anyone anywhere at any time, there should be full body scanners basically at every street corner. With private assistants doing pat downs on anyone we are suspicious of.

Think where we would be if we had allowed "bankruptcy"

instead of mass money laundering, local peoples would have been picking up the pieces and already recovering, at least know who the culprits were.
Yet we now have even more of the same disease, and told to let it fester.

What if we allowed "profiling" which included the "back of hand" pat-down of men only excluding women and children, yet xray all baggage?
This would increase our percentages of attack by 30 to 50%, but what's 30% of a non-event?
All this security repression is a distraction from the Agenda 21 take over of the north american resources by the bribe makers and bribe takers.
Otherwise, it's called treason and prison building.
When government/corps get this big, they feed us lies and distract us physically and financially and call it innocent turn style detainment and confounding of the minds of men.
There is plenty of risk in life, and we have already done much to protect airlines. But it's this gov/corp/military oppression that says we may be better off "bankrupting" this push to "find terrorist before they strike" ambiguity, especially with "profiling" being "politicized".

It is "we the people" that more times than not, subdue the situation and do the good fight as we wait for the so called "good guy" protector to show up.

So, do you want to live in a town where everyone owns a gun, or do you want a town which is a lock down, but forbidden for you to own a gun for personal protection?
We are being scammed by the war on terror, just as we are being scammed by the war on drugs and further, the "media" that scams us all daily.
Enough is enough. And endocrination of children and "security" persons is disolving logic.
OK, I don't fly for a living, yet the airlines and terrorist do not compare with the deaths from other causes, except when a bomb is dropped out of one in the "war is a racquet" scenario.
I for one, will not see a medical doctor for other than blunt trauma injuries. Their "medicine" is poison. Doctors kill many people.
When we "reduce" the size of government, wherever it exist, and give the guns and land back to the people, choice, back to the people, we will begin creating new ways of life as libety, freedom and the entreprenuer provide.
Even though the killing of innocents in WACO was an accident ... the question is ... why was the government there in the first place, that demanded such show of force?

If this was truly a war, the loss of one plane, say every year is a small price to pay for freedom.
Despite the dangers, I would still fly. The odds are you'll get in car wreck before you'll be blown up in an airliner.

"Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom."
- Patrick Henry

And never forget, “Humans, despite our artistic pretensions, our sophistication and many accomplishments, owe the fact of our existence to a six-inch layer of topsoil and the fact that it rains.”

Real Freedom means....

having to take some risks...and sometimes prevention is the worst kind of tyrranny....

“The Internet is the first thing that humanity has built that humanity doesn't understand, the largest experiment in anarchy that we have ever had." - Eric Schmidt

reedr3v's picture

I support your right to be scanned

or groped or whatever measure makes you feel safe. And if an airline voluntarily chose this precaution I'd support their right to demand compiance from customers.
And I'd support any customers who chose to take their business to an airline that did not choose those particular screening methods.

The problem with government mandates is that there is little room to escape; they don't allow competitive, innovative alternatives. We can avoid flying, or if we can afford private aviation that is an alternative. But since the government already wrecked railroad progress and development, trains are an antiquated, slow alternative. And cars for long distances have their inefficient aspects. Government control of every facet of transportation is another huge area that is being ruined for the general public.

Government officials fly in style and have no problem being herded and prodded like cattle.

A belated note of irony.

Eight days after you posted this note about government officials being exempt from TSA harassment, Ron Paul gave this interview to Alex Jones, about his own experience being groped by the TSA. It isn't all government officials who are exempt, you see, just the Establishment insiders. I'm waiting to see a member of the Obama or Bush families being sent to "secondary screening." Or Nancy Pelosi (I have a vision of that: three TSA screeners faced with La Pelosi immediately quit in disgust and a supervisor throws up in his hand. . .)

Recommended reading: The Most Dangerous Superstition, http://www.amazon.com/Most-Dangerous-Superstition-Larken-Ros...

Great points

and LOL about "I support your right to be scanned and groped."

Wouldn't happen long in a

Wouldn't happen long in a free market.

It is precisely this type of asinine babbling that turns people off from libertarianism.

So, defending the rights of some company to treat its customers and employees like crap (that would be unlikely in a true free marker) does not go over well with the plebeians.

Completely counterproductive.

in other words, in my utopia,

in other words, in my utopia, things would be perfect.

I think the first airline to end the use of scanners

would get all the business they could take. Free market would eliminate this nonsense in a hearbeat.

And they could charge higher fares for not having to expose yourself to pediphiles and perverts.

how do you know they've tried

how do you know they've tried and failed?

what would it take to convince you THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU?

I'm Convinced you are a troll

Your comments show you are ignorant and have no idea what liberty and free markets are all about.

Go somewhere else and vent your stupidity.

yeah right buddy

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom — go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!" Sam Adams

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Ben Franklin

Quit quoting Franklin. What

Quit quoting Franklin.

What is "essential liberty" and what is "little temporary safety"?

pretty simple

essential Liberty is freedom of course...the right to privacy, free speech, fair trial, a weapon to protect yourself...the basic fundamentals of the constitution and the governments job is to uphold those principles not to keep us "safe" from supposed terror (which they don't do such a good job of anyway). Feel free to step through a radiation booth if you don't agree with the constitution.

Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto. - T. Jefferson rЭVO˩ution

"Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state wants to live at the expense of everyone.” - BASTIAT

Right to privacy? Wasn't Ron

Right to privacy?

Wasn't Ron Paul the person who said "Ridiculous as sodomy laws may be, there clearly is no right to privacy nor sodomy found anywhere in the Constitution."

Does Ron Paul support Roe v Wade on the grounds of PRIVACY?

Why haven't airline companies spoken out against scanners and searches? Don't they want happy customers? If airlines authorized and demanded the search, would that be OK?

reedr3v's picture

I challenge you to give a source for that.

You apparently come here to vent your dislike of libertarianism. Why waste your time and ours?