Wise words from Tom Woods...
Submitted by elviejo on Mon, 01/11/2010 - 14:10"I think it’s a huge mistake to dismiss the Tea Party people just because they’re having Sarah Palin speak at their convention next month. These people are a diverse lot, and many of them respect Ron Paul. They know something is wrong, which is more than can be said for most of our fellow Americans, and they are interested in learning. Tea Party people have come out to several of my speaking events, even co-sponsoring one of them, and I’ll tell you one thing: they read. Most of them hadn’t heard the case I was making about the Fed and the business cycle before, so they bought copies of Meltdown. That is a radical book...."
We don't need your stinking
We don't need your stinking change, we need your 'ideological purity.' Of course Tom Woods is right, but the newly-minted radicals will continue to flaunt their arrogance at those who aren't as 'pure' as them. It's nonsense.
This movement is fertile ground and could be a real agent for change. Incremental change, most likely, but change nonetheless. Politics is not philosophy. You ground your politics in a solid philosophy and try to reach as many people as possible. Those advocating writing off the 3-5 million people who are visibly angry and wanting to do something about it are cowards, pure and simple; hiding behind their rhetoric and purity to keep their hands from getting dirty with the real work that needs to be done.
There are long-term goals and short-term goals. Align yourself with like-minded people on the issues/ideas that you agree with in the short-term while continuing to promote the ideas you disagree with for the long term.
Ta,
Blog: The Present in Plain Text
Listen to The Myo-Tonics on YouTube
Good point.
And yes, they would be fertile ground for education.
Don't write them off just because you don't like one or two of the speakers. Many of the less-celebrated attendees are there working the crowd.
_____________________________
"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." -- Joseph Goebbels
tool
Sarah Palin, in her press statement about joining fox news, actually deemed them "fair and balanced". I don't even think FoxNews or the dumbest neo-con on the planet believes they're fair and balanced anymore. She is willing to be disingenuous for a big paycheck. No liberty here. This will prove to be a big momentum drain for the tea party. Palin has never been an articulate spokesperson for liberty and sensible foreign or monetary policy. She is more of the same.
Agreed
Ron Paul dismissing them on tv is starting to piss me off and is counter productive!
Ron Paul Doesn't "Dismiss" Them
He's just, rightfully (as I imagine even Mr. Woods would be), cautious. In fact, I heard him mention the other day that the tea parties weren't exactly what the MSM was trying to portray them as. They do indeed, as Dr. Paul noted, contain a large number of former Democrats as well as an antiwar contingent and represent a widespread dissatisfaction among the general public.
_____________________________
"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." -- Joseph Goebbels
Tom Woods is still learning what liberty means (it's cute)
He, like a few other supposed "intelligensia," love voting and lobbying and "reaching groups" knowing you can't turn unionists into individualists; save one-on-one.
"turning a group" means dealing with the people as a group rather than as individuals.
If we all "turn" 10 people the country would be turned within 3 months.
If you try to speak to people through their group abdication in hope of liberty you are in an Orwellian oxymoronic nightmare with Hitchcock as the stage coach driver.
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
OMG, I have heard a few of your arrogant responses
, sounding more like a know all, or perhaps a shill,
but this one takes the cake.
Hannah: Don't be such a dramatist -- articulate yourself.
Misesian.
He's a Misesian Scholar (supposedly).
Rothbardians run Mises Institute.
They are two different philosophies with about 60%-80% overlap, but that remaining percentage of difference is the "difference" between pseudo-individualism (that leads to capitalism then coporatism; which is what the Founders created) and true-individualism which is what Mises discovered.
Ron Paul is a Misesian Scholar.
I really don't know what you disliked in that comment -- I think you are "reading" old collectivist notions of "humility" and "altruism" into me -- when I'm a self-promoting individualist who is honest when he says, "I love myself, my opinion, my voice, and attention," rather than pretending to be "for the crowd, a self-sacrificer, or 'man of humility'"
Hahahahahaha.
That being said *dusts of sleeves* what did you disagree with and can you articulate it -- it's 11am here and the perfect time for a sparring match with a "worthy" opponent, such as yourself.
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Bro
You can be an individualist without being a pompous ass.
_________________________________
Freedom - Peace - Prosperity
No, they really can't help
No, they really can't help themselves.
Ventura 2012
Did you even read the post she was replying too?
Hahahahaha.
Here: Pompous Ass / pomp·ous ass /
-noun
1. a stupid, foolish, or stubborn person characterized by an ostentatious display of dignity or importance: a pompous minor official.
You can't prove "stupid, foolish, or stubborn" via online chatting. Everything else is totally subjective.
I'm an individualist -- I think very highly of my own opinnion; as one does if they post under a pseudonym and venture an opinion that goes against the main-stream.
So it's hilarious to me on a website dedicated to individualism -- slapping in the face 97% of the country on a daily basis, that I'd be called an egoist, hahahahahahaha.
But whatever -- It's all good.
The best way to avoid debate is to name-call like school children. Well agreed!
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
I was referring to the
I was referring to the hardcore individualists in general. I am almost as libertarian as you can get without being an an-cap, but I am don't have such an individualist personality that I always have to have my own way and go against the grain. This is something I have noticed with a lot of libertarians. Inside the beltway, its a race to see who can be more of a statist while calling themselves libertarian. Outside of the beltway, its a race to see who can say more outlandish things without being committed to a mental hospital.
I believe that basic personality differences are very integral parts of partisan divisions and even divisions within our own movement.
Ventura 2012
Kemp: "pompous ass" is a subjective measure
I do a lot of what all of you would be called "good" in the world -- but I can't show "all of me" in a 100 character debate.
The above is my response to the juvenile character assassinations that take place on line -- "as if" you know someone by-way of a username and some font (jotted ideas).
My response was just a "way" of responding, if you read all of my posts you'll see I "never" attack anyone.
"pompous ass" has no bearing since I don't know whether you are "qualified" (in my own opinion) to make that statement or if I should respect it; therefore it's idiotic to communicate like this, when all's you have to do is "respond" to the original stimulace.
You might notice this is going on and on and that's another thing I like to do is drag people's attention under the wheel of my logic 'till it causes some level of aggravation since they are not the type of person who takes the time to make an articulate reply; rather, they make over generalized comments that can't be quantified or qualified and thus take up space and block learning.
It's my way of slapping the cheeks with a white glove, hahahaha. Touche!
Smile *blinking*
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
As a friend
All I ask is to not give individualism a bad name via belligerence.
For the most part, I agree with most of what you write, but your rhetoric can veer off into the over-the-top at times and if you are an avowed individualist, while being pompous, you just give individualists a bad name.
Take care.
_________________________________
Freedom - Peace - Prosperity
Kemp: If you were my "friend" you'd know me and know that
I'm not "pompous" -- but as impossible as that is for me to "disprove" so it is impossible for you to "prove" that I am pompous; therefore its a waste of time and therefore childish (something that CAN be proven).
I know I can "come off" all kinds of ways -- it's called subjective interpritation.
There are a few that think my comments are "genius" -- that also is subjective.
I don't take compliments or insults "seriously" -- what I do love is to debate.
So, rather than you guys resulting to generalized character assassinations (which is absurd given that I'm a username and a font) why not ask, "Hey Octo, you said Tom Woods is still learning what liberty means - then you gave a short but discriptive reason why; I disagree owing to this......."
Disqualifying me without addressing my words is like playing a short but beautiful piece on the piano and have someone intentially walk by and loudly fart at face level.
It's all good "friend" -- I'm wasting my time trying to educate her and now you on proper code and debate conduct and chewing up the minutes. I don't think you guys are "evil" and maybe this chastisement is a "bit over the top" -- but it is systemic on DP.
You can search all the DP and never find me once attacking someone or being rude -- never once.
Tommy Woods is not on this site (at least not openly) and he is a media figure -- He is in the public debate domain; he represents ideals and suggests (influencially so) solutions that can shape the course of the Movement.
It is my right and duty to challenge him and give short yet good arguments why.
Let's keep it on that level "buddy."
I too like many of your posts and agree with much of what you say -- but it is my opinion that you did not read what I originally wrote -- I've re-read it 5 times now and can't find anything "pompous" in it. Attention getting and Provacative, only a minor bit so; is my reasoning sugested, has a challenge been thrown down -- yes but only a minor bit so.
Smile,
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Hannah: My arguments are typically Individualist or specifically
Misesian.
He's a Misesian Scholar (supposedly).
Rothbardians run Mises Institute.
They are two different philosophies with about 60%-80% overlap, but that remaining percentage of difference is the "difference" between pseudo-individualism (that leads to capitalism then coporatism; which is what the Founders created) and true-individualism which is what Mises discovered.
Ron Paul is a Misesian Scholar.
I really don't know what you disliked in that comment -- I think you are "reading" old collectivist notions of "humility" and "altruism" into me -- when I'm a self-promoting individualist who is honest when he says, "I love myself, my opinion, my voice, and attention," rather than pretending to be "for the crowd, a self-sacrificer, or 'man of humility'"
Hahahahahaha.
That being said *dusts of sleeves* what did you disagree with and can you articulate it -- it's 11am here and the perfect time for a sparring match with a "worthy" opponent, such as yourself.
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Pick your favorite "club" or "bar" -- why do you go there
Pick your favorite brand of beer, why do you buy it?
Pick your favorite store to shop at or your favority art gallery or amusement; why do you go there?
You go to these places because they please you and they entice you.
Whatever we figure out this movement needs to focus on -- It needs to be enticing, entertaining, and economically beneficially (just in regard to being a member, not owing to any met goals).
If we can do this than we wont have to work so hard.
Solve people's problems and they will "protest" in the wisest manner we choose.
Of course the wisest manner is Counter-Economics -- predicated by a one week "boycott banks" -- after which we put all our money into the largest non-Fed credit unions.
Just to see what happens -- then the following week we begin Counter-Economics and a week of "empty wall-street" (liquidate all assets).
We could have this country running the way we wanted inside of 3 months.
Counter-Economics:
1) Buy only Local Products and Services (as perfectly as you can)
2) Hire under-the-table (ONLY)
3) Work under-the-table (as much as possible)
4) Get rid of all leverageable assets (rent or lease)
5) Go bankrupt (after you get rid of assets)
----Might not need to do this one
6) Buy ONLY Local Produce and Meats (at worst regional)
7) Pull your kids from public schools (shut 'em down)
8) Start buying clubs
etc etc etc
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
I like your ideas.
Boycotting banks - going with non-fed credit unions. Liquidating assets.
If a large mass of people did this, what would the repercussions be? Government seizing of assets or Credit Unions?... just wondering what the banking industry/Feds would do if we boycotted them en masse...
Local products, very difficult. Do you mean manufactured locally? That's a tough one, when you are only surrounded by national chains whose merchandise is overwhelmingly from overseas. I have an increasing interest in making things myself (clothes, toys, etc.)
Working under the table.... well, if you're doing business with other businesses who all want to write your services off as an expense, I'm not sure how this would work.
I like these ideas, though. Give me more resources, if you have them... Thanks.
Lao Tzua: Obviously people would work on these by percentage
only 10% or so could probably go 100% at it.
However, over time we would create the situation where we could work and exchange and barter ever-more in this fashion.
The resources are "local" -- where do you live.
Look to people who have barter clubs, sell for a living at swap meets and farmers markets -- go to local Indian Reservations (many are quite advanced in counter-economics already); this would put American-Indians at the front of the Fed-Exodus movement.
I also think that American-Indians on Reservations could come up with an underground currency; if all reservations did it it would be un-stoppable.
We'd have our own liberty currency (e-credits and coin minting) that we could use -- again at local and privately owned level; credit unions (non-fed afiliated) would transfer credit and paper for these Rez-Bills (backed by gold, silver, or something).
This is what drives me crazy -- If we stopped thinking in terms of Ballot-Boxes and went Full-Inteligence and Entrepreneurial-Genius into Counter-Economics we'd innovate these "junior" ideas I have into a workable solution.
-AND- We'd be free inside a year.
I would advise we keep a "new type" of gov't (I've already written a simplistic constitution) regarding foreign-debt payments, Naval-oversight, and Army-Air oversight. All in our waters and on our soil only (of course ex-military can go overseas to be police if they wanted).
I mean I know we can make this happen.
Who cares what the gov't or fed would do -- Whatever they did if 80,000,000 did it -- It be too large for them to control.
They'd probably freeze assets in Wall Street.
But this would be a week-long protest -- If they stop-up the banks and wall street we pause 'till they allow access, then we go back at it.
It's impossible to defeat -- Then we come at them with terms. The first one would probably be as a test, the second protest (done a few months later - with better planning) would be the death-blow.
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
I dont dismiss the tea party people
I dismiss the whole idea that the tea party establishment is cohesive enough to accomplish anything. Their ideologies are all over the place, and they far get more attention than other REAL groups like C4L, Iraqi Veterans Against the War, etc.
As far as I'm concerned, the existence of that movement is an annoyance and side show.
we do agree on some things...
pseudonym
i think the tea party movement has been hijacked
no self respecting liberal constitutionalist would have this heretofor unknown neocon speak to the future of our people
sounds like more "change you can believe in" to me
don't be duped!
throw the liars out!
btw, i like to consider myself as a tea party member and she would not speak for me
its 'cos I owe ya, my young friend...
Rockin' the FREE world in Tennessee since 1957!
how un-Lewrockwell.com of him
how un-Lewrockwell.com of him :)
Ventura 2012
It's a little upsetting
that it took Obama to bring most of these people out of their shell. I sometimes wonder where they were when Bush was pursuing the same bad policies. But most of the 912er's that I've talked to recognize serious problems with both sides. I think the election was their catalyst to become active. For a lot of us, our catalyst was Ron Paul. Everyone comes from a different angle. They are here now and we should work with them. I've noticed a lot of people shifting their ideology away from neoconservatism as they become more educated. I haven't seen an ideology shift in the opposite direction.
We do have a tendency to
We do have a tendency to write them off too quickly. Some of them deserve to be, but some of them not. I wish we could have free pocket-sized copies of Meltdown to hand out to everybody at the tea parties. Because this is going to have to be a revolution of ideas, not of partisanship.
yes, but if you 'lump' them as "tea party people"
how on earth do you approach them?
"hello, I'm an anti-war, pro-birth libertarian (this is just me, not everyone on here) who isn't thrilled with corporatism; how can I make you like me?"
it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--
I was a neocon back then...
Tom Woods ends that post with:
"This is a gigantic movement; why not try to reach them? I myself was a neocon back in the early 1990s, and I’m sure glad people didn’t write me off."
People can change.
at 1st i thought it read...
"Wise words from Tiger Woods...", HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
2Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
bump for Tom's optimism
.