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HAARP you sunk my battleship!

I'm glad that we've found a new conspiracy theory to focus on -- it's awesome, it never ends!

Let's pretend it's real (in fact all of them) -- every single conspiracy is true in this discussion.

How are they funded? By Fed Banks, Corporatists, and Unionists!!

Where do Fed Bankers, Corporatists, and Unionists get their power from (who supports them economically)?

Consumers!

1) Consumers-who-Purchase
2) Consumers-who-Invest
3) Consumers-who-Abdicate
----Vote
----Lobby
----Buy Corporatist Products
----Keep Assets in Fed Banks / Wall Street
----Pay Taxes
----Think Global and Never Local

The diversity of distraction among the supposed "enlightened" people does not inspire "hope" for the future.

Let's list all the ways Corporatism, Militarism, Centralism, Nobility have never been destroyed:

1) By Way of Voting
2) By Way of Lobbying
3) By Way of Purchasing "their" Goods
4) By Way of Keeping Assets in "their" Houses (banks)
5) By War
6) By Protest
7) By Lawn-Sign

Wow -- the list at NEVER-WORKING-TO-ELIMINATE looks identical to the list that PERPETUATES!!

Is there one model that has worked yet never has been tried in the U.S? Yes!

Counter-Economics (Gandhi's Satyagrahi-Ahimsa Movement)
1) Localism
---Buy Local Organics
---Shop Farmers Markets
---Develop Buying Clubs
---Shop/Sell at Flea Markets
2) Non-Participation
---Non-Voting
---Non-Lobbying
---Non-Tax Payments
---Working under-the-table
---Hiring under-the-table

In simplistic terms

How do we develop it?

1st We stop enumerating failing points and blameshifting
2nd Create Incentives to Participation
3rd Create Alternative Currency
---American-Indians are key here
4th Stop practicing those things that have never worked once in all human history.

Just some "alternative" thinking.



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well said

bravo!

~peace

Poland did it I think when

the Communists ruled, I think I saw something about how they had a black market that was so fantastic that no one bought anything from the government. If we could get information on how that was developed that might help, but I think the elite have found ways to discourage the black market. There is a bill that would shut down little farmers markets, doesn't that blow away shop locally?

"We can see with our eyes, hear with our ears and feel with our touch, but we understand with our hearts."

Now you are talking! This is

Now you are talking! This is where the rubber meets the road. Instead of yammering about how great the idea or concept is perhaps we should start a new thread for ideas on how to create a free economy? Everyone can brainstorm on ideas for avoiding the revenuers and trading amongst ourselves and cut them out of it.

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Quilt: Farmer's Markets are not "black markets" per se

----If the Farmer's are wise they pay a little toward taxes; but it's not preventable.

There are 1,000's of Farmer's Markets accross the country and small-plot organic farming is one of the fastest growing markets. There are 88 in Los Angeles city alone.

It's impossible for the gov't to regulate all that.

They are seriously over-extended with all the programs they are running.

The gov't is banking on a huge gamble, that when they destroy the dollar sufficiently enough they'll be able to turn it all over into a Global Economy (1 World Gov't - 1 World Banking) fast enough.

At that point -- that tipping point, if we are in position with Counter-Economics we can turn that tide.

The dragon cannot see in the failing light, that's the magic hour when we strike.

Oh yeah, that was a Reign of Fire quote.

Hahahahaha

It is not impossible for them

It is not impossible for them to regulate most of it, they do, most farmers markets have tax collectors on site, or the venue won't let you have a space without a tax ID because they have been threatened by the revenuers. Exceptions sometimes are the more rural areas but they are getting fewer and farther in between.

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Hawkiye: Most states do not have perishable taxes

They are probably paying a licensure fee.

The state is not running its deficits on licensure fees from farmer's markets, hahahaha.

The biggest areas of Counter-Economics is not Local Organics -- Though that is very important for health and for increasing local farming incase the "pie hits the fan" one day. You don't want to be dependent on imports.

The biggest areas are: 1) Stop using Fed Banks, 2) Stop using Wall Street, 3) Homeschooling Kids, 4) Working Under the Table (increasingly so), 5) Hiring under the table, 6) Create buying clubs,7) Trades and Barter

We just live as though we are free -- then the false veneer of "gov't" is pulled away.

I would say you have offered a false dichotomy

I plan on doing some of what you advise and some of what you claim has failed.

FYI, people already buy organics, so, using your same logic, one could say, "people buying organics is a strategy that has not worked".

Step it up.

_________________________________

Freedom - Peace - Prosperity

Kemp: Locally Grown Organics

Buy Local Organics 1st
Buy Local Non-Organics 2nd ((((Farmer's Market Produce are usually organic even though they can't advertise it))))
Buy Long Distance Organics 3rd

......Never buy long distance non-organics (this supports corporatist farming the most).

More important is local organic farmers markets.

The "weight" of the model does not rest solely on organic farming.

I never said that by following a counter-economics model we would "destroy" the people who we consider "evil" now.

Some of them will be ruined, because they will hold out and not adapt. However, most of them will adapt.

Counter-Economics "forces" them to "profit" in a free-market as opposed to a corporatist one.

I can see that I need to hit the same argument from another angle -- to clear the issue you are bringing up.

I keep on say the people have forgotten their power!

But the Power scares the people.....it's easier to have someone to blame.

K.I.S.S. love it.

Well said Danna!!!

I have to...

give you props for the title....

Author of Buy Gold and Silver Safely
Next book: Illusions of Wealth - due out soon
Also writing book We the Serfs!

Don't talk about HAARP

Don't talk about 9-11
Don't talk about war
Don't talk about elections
Don't talk about massacres abroad
Don't talk about FEMA
Don't talk about swine flu
Don't talk about ANYTHING.

Just listen to Octobox and follow his prescription for a better society. Not that your prescription is bad, but the "shut up you fools, I have The Answer" is incessant and very annoying.

Let's just *pretend* that what you are saying about the bankers and Fed having too much power and controlling our lives is true. I know it's hilarious but calm down, let's pretend. Will it really help the world if we just buy locally, by bartering? I can't own land here because that requires Federal Reserve Notes (and they are bad, ha ha.) I'd have to rent by paying someone with some other commodity that I didn't grow from the earth because I don't have land, or be homeless. I assume you have already accomplished this?

I'd have to stop buying bananas, coffee, tea...What about cotton...my climate doesn't support cotton growth. Can I have clothes? If I only buy local, I won't have oil or natural gas or even electricity because it all comes from far away. You have locally-produced oil, gas, and electricity? Wow you are lucky. Don't tell me you go without electricity- your computer access is the smoking gun.

I can't raise my own sheep either without owning land. So I can't have wool unless my sheep-raising neighbors barter with me after I bike to their house and carry the sheepskins on my head on the way home. Geez, I tried your method of renouncing self-abdication but it looks like I'm renouncing alot, including heat and clothes.

Looks like you take live free or die very seriously. And just because you were pretending the bankers had a conspiracy going against you, that was your motivation? Wow.

(Thought I'd give you a taste of your own medicine, Octobox.)

Psuedo: You can't defeat my argument by trying to re-define

my own position, hahahaha.

Have you ever noticed that I've never attacked you once?

You act as if I hold people captive or that I spoil your fun; am I a wet blanket at a conspiracy party?

You are a psuedo-son of liberty. I'm an 8-Armed Samurai, a flying Octopus with rubber mallets at the end of my tentacles, and I am very mighty *flexes*

Hahahahahaha.

I'm just a username and font -- This is an opinion-thread that I wish was less emotional and more debate oriented.

To answer the non-emotion debate portion of your post.

1) Obviously -- We need Cotton and Oil and Coal
2) Of Course -- I like Corn Chips
3) Really? -- As if I'm un-aware of how we own computers

When I say Localism I'm not making an absolutest statement.

Go Vote and Lobby -- Also, protest and rant -- Get emotional.

Since that has never worked once in all human history, keep trying it just the same.

Counter-Economics worked for Gandhi and his band of 378M, why not for our 307M? It worked without your Orwellian Disastor Scenario playing out.

Your imagined 'battleship' is a 'self inflatable life raft'

You are using the 'HAARP' in your title to gather attention to your pet topic. Kudos! You finally got a few replies after posting the same subject matter 50 times under other titles!!

So, you needed to deride a subject that to some is very important in order to gain attention for yours? Let YOUR subject stand on it's own with a title that does not deride others interests and posts.

"I think we are living in a world of lies: lies that don't even know they are lies, because they are the children and grandchildren of lies." ~ Chris Floyd

Liberty_Belle: You are casting a negative light

on what I'm trying to say.

I think HAARP and all other Conspiracy Theories have mis-placed rage.

I'm saying the Consumer must first Abdicate -- then and only then can the Money Masters create their "evil"

So, I'm not hijacking a phrase or title to draw attention to a non-related point.

It's all related.

Besides -- Protesting, Voting, Awareness of "Specific" Issues, Lobbying -- et al. Has never once produced liberty.

You can't argue with that -- It's historical fact.

There has only be one non-violent model to produce independence; and that's Gandhi's Counter-Economics or "Satyagraih" movement.

We can't do it exactly as they did it, but it gives us a model.

I've laid out how the "Evil They" that you and others are Blameshifting On derive their Revenue Stream; the answer is Consumers.

This OP Thread is very very Appropriate and the Title is Perfect, given that HAARP is the new 911-Truth.

The OP Thread with the greatest views is the one on Chemtrails -- This is my WHOLE POINT.

That being said -- I do like you and trust your heart, smile.

HAARP is not 'new' and it is not a 'conspiracy'

HAARP technology exists and documentation of the intent of it being used as a weapon exist. It is, therefore not a 'conspiracy' to question the possibility it was used. Yes, it is possible. Is it possible the quake was natural? Yes. Is is possible that drilling/mining can or did set off and earthquake? Yes.

Sorry, I'm not an isolationist, I care about many things and other people...that is who I am. What is done to my neighbor can be done to me and I will speak out on the things I see as important.

People are capable of being interested in more than one or two issues and there is no need for you to deride what I find to be important. ( and yes, that IS what you have done)

"I think we are living in a world of lies: lies that don't even know they are lies, because they are the children and grandchildren of lies." ~ Chris Floyd

Liberty_Belle: I don't question your resolve

nor anyone elses.

The fact is -- "we don't know" -- what caused or who caused any of these conspiracies or accused actions (factual or not).

The time is "wasted" on the persuit of the "evil they" when we don't know for sure who it is.

What will we say "it's gov't?" Does that include Ron Paul? Of course not. There are 1.8M Federal Employees, which one is it? We don't know.

You might say, "launch an investigation" -- Okay who pays for it? You can't launch a Corporatist-Fiat-Paid investigation into bringing down a Corporatist Gov't.

A truly free-market does not allow for public funded investigations of anyone -- Voluntary Investigations? Sure.

However, even if the voluntary investigation finds "culprits" there is no prison system in a free-society; as there cannot be "voluntary force agents" only private. Any and all people have the obligation in a free-society to protect oneself; they could hire protection. So your private protection agency war with mine? No that wouldn't work.

My point is if we want a free-market-society (Consumer-Sovereignty) then maybe we should just create one (Counter-Economics) instead of focusing on things that can never get us there.

"Caring" -- I care to get people into Liberty not to bring criminals to justice. Liberty requires "self-defense." There are no victims in a free-society, there is no protectionism. Empathy and Compassion abound.

But when someone is "wronged" if we love them, we teach them how to defend themselves not seek revenge.

It' the old teach a man to fish over feeding him parable.

ha ha ha

You "never attacked me once."

I won't embarrass you by drudging up old conversations where you did just that- the evidence is right here: this whole thread was an "attack" on those who take HAARP seriously, and I am one of them.

If all you wanted to do was spread your self-sustaining message, that would have been the title of this thread. Instead you were grandstanding.

I was taking your argument of buying local to the extreme to show that it is untenable and impractical. So, you might want preach that with some humility or, if you can't manage that, some caveats. I was also demonstrating that it's all based on your own concept of reality, in which the Fed is a monster. That assumption is just as easy to mock as the assumption that HAARP is a tectonic weapon.

Psuedo: You are overtly sensative.

Grandstanding? Hahahaha.

I'm an A-non-y-mous username and font!

I have no society -- I don't put my picture up.

I'm not linking back to my homepage.

I'm not asking for donations nor do I want anyone's 'vote'

This is an OP Thread -- Opinion.

Hahahahaha.

Did you change your real name to your username?

You try to "attack" me -- I attack notions, not people.

I'm never rude or mean to you -- Go pull up our old conversations. I stand on my gentlemanly behavior.

If you "represent" a rediculous position that has never worked once in all human history, it's not "you" I'm after, it's the notion.

Stop taking things so personally and "breathe"

I actually like "you" and "your" posts, without which how would I present my opinions.

The white chalk needs the black board to give contrast and knowledge.

It doesn't matter what you are or who you are

you were grandstanding.

I don't know why you always resort to discussing emotions. It's not even interesting to focus on who feels what, much less verifiable.

Pseudo: Try debating the OP -- I did not "seek you out"

.....I love debate.

Go back to the OP and start there.

logged in just for you, OCtobox

When you and I are in nearly 100% agreement, that is more than a coincidence... maybe it is a conspiracy...? lol!
GOOD STUFF.
I set up a barter board over a year ago. Not much going on, but it is in place if people are ever ready...

Truth exists, and it deserves to be cherished.

While I like the concept here

While I like the concept here is the problem; your asking millions of people to become destitute to make the point. People neeed to make a living first. The system you are trying to bring down in this manner (and I agree it needs to come down) is the main source of livelihood for the majority of people. Even those who work under the table usually work for someone who is making thier living in the system we are trying to starve by attrition.

So we have a tough catch 22, how do you bite the hand the feeds while seeking to feed yourself without the local community structure in place to do it.

I and many in the sovereign movement have tried to live outside the commercial industrial military system and it limits your options quit a bit. We are not an agrarian society like we used to be.

Ghandi did not gain freedom for his people with what he did. Having said that they did succeed in limiting British rule for a time but they were an agrarian society and it was easier for them to be more self sufficient, however the British now have them back in the thralls of commercial slavery just like us to a large degree.

There is no easy answer. I would agree we need to go back to a more agrarian decentralized society but I am increasingly coming to believe it will never happen without some kind of major upheaval. Also if your off grid and we succeed in bringing down the commercial system who is going to manufacture the replacement batteries for your solar system when they die? Or parts for you generator when it breaks down or even spark plugs when it or your car or tractor needs a tune up?

Bottom line is there is going to be a lot of pain at some point in any transistion so stock up now and get prepared.

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

You are buying into the notion that we need

Economic-Fuedalism (Capitalism) or Economic-Fascism (Corporatism) to survive or be NON-Agrarian.

On the contrary the MASS-Scale (Global Market) was created by Capitalism (the Industrialists) and Corporatism (the Information Age Monopolists).

It is cheaper in Capitalism and Corporatism to have gigantic corporations who mass produce (like Wall Mart).

But there was a time when everything (nearly so) was made locally.

Everything in computing can be made locally or regionally -- yes component parts (silicon) will need to be brought in. But the component parts industry was born from Corporatism, what would have been created if we did not have the two primary "Ages" of America's history (Industrialization and Info-Age)?

I think you might be assuming that we'd have stayed agrarian if not for the Industrialist.

This is not true, necessarily.

Converting oil to energy was local born. If we were fierce consumer-individualist we would have quickly worked out the Free-Market "Global Market" or we would have invented Alternative and Locally controlled Energy Sources.

It's really hard to say.

My point is we don't need to be "Localists" 100%.

It will take less to bring society down than you think -- far less.

My argument is that society as we know it is barely there, it is so fragile, like a spider web.

We have Corporatism (like a lace cloth) lain over Anarchy; which is 99% the mass of our society.

We have been trained to think the thing cloth is "everything" -- we don't see what's right beneath.

Do cops stop crime -- No; almost never. Anarchy
Does Insurance prevent Illness -- Never! Anarchy
Do Gov'ts stop Terrorist -- Only in Fiction! Anarchy
Does Gov't stop drug use -- NEVER! Anarchy

I'm saying it would take very little to destroy the illusion.

No I don't and you missed the

No I don't and you missed the point entirely. I never said we needed anything. It doesn't matter how anything started locally what matters is where we are now and the transition back is not so simple as you think.

You seem more interested in thinking your right then any dialogue about how to actually make it happen. As I said I agree with the concepts but the problem is you have a majority of people dependent on the current commercial system. Sure it would be simple if we could get a most of them on board however that is not going to happen easy or quickly because they make their living in the current system and have little clue on how, or desire to, change it.

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Hawk: I'll let this one go as a two-sided misunderstanding

and see you over on your "action" thread.

I am with you Octobox.

But you cannot discount that in order for more people to participate, more people need to first see what's going on clearly. I would say disseminating information is necessary to the task you describe so well, wouldn't you?

Lao Tzua: Blameshifting and seeking Justice is not very Taoist

:-)

I don't belittle people for doing what they feel is right -- there was a time when I forwarded "look at the evil 'they'" links and videos.

One day I was meditating and I asked to "see" the truth of the situation and that's when it hit me -- "who's the meditator" -- my answer "me" -- "who's the consumer?" -- answer "me" - "we"

The "evil they" have a revenue stream -- it's their sole power, we need to force them to seek wealth in a free-market driven by consumer-sovereingty.

What we "need" to do to make this happen is to develop an innovative model that give's people what they want -- in addition ot liberty.

I mean if we moved into liberty tomorrow what would people be deficient in: Entrepreneurialism, Passive Income, Networking & Self-Promotion, Knowledge on how to "Position" one-self, and Self-Defense.

Our Counter-Economics (Consumer-Minarchism / Consumer-Individualism) Education must include those above deficiencies.

I am not promoting blame-shifting and seeking Justice.

I am promoting "enlightenment". I don't think many will listen to you, Octo, who have not first seen what motivates our current government. Once they see, they might listen to you. Until they see, they will not have ears to hear you. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

I agree with you about the revenue stream. It is the fundamental. Getting around it is not as clear to me as it is to you though.

Lao: I understand

I do understand you.

People seek "revenge" when they "see" imperfect data.

Or they fall into apathy.

Or they seek to lobby, vote, or protest.

These are all feable positions as they "ask" for cure by Corporatist Means (voting - lobbying) rather than "force" the cure by Counter-Economic means; which is how we "change" what we don't like in a free-society.

There's nothing else available -- What's available as a tool of change now is a pseudo-change, a false choice.

You can't use Corporatist Ballot Box, nor Corporatist Court System -- all paid by Fiat Currency to rid yourself of Corporatist Gov't.

It is 100% Mathematical impossible.

I chose the non-gov't granted choice -- Economic-Voting.

Conscious-Consumerism.