I got pulled over tonight
Hello Freedom Fighters,
Tonight, my wife and I were dropping off my mother-in-law, at her house (she comes over to take care of our baby boy).
We were travelling down I-17 South in Phoenix, when I got pulled over by a AZ DPS officer.
I pulled off the highway, for our safety and HIS safety.
He came over to the passenger side and told me he was pulling me over for a headlight that was out (which it was.)
He saw our baby boy in the back seat and asked how old he was. I said, "16 months."
He congratulated us.
He then asked me for my license, registration and insurance.
The insurance I have is up to date, but I had an expired insurance card.
He said, "Don't worry, I'll take your word for it."
He then came back with a "work order" basically saying if we get it fixed within five days, there will be no penalty.
(I didn't like the fact that my wife was driving around with one headlight out, especially since we have a bay on board, so I was going to fix it ASAP anyway)
I then talked to him about the fact that I travelled about 1/4 mile to get off the freeway, for both our safety.
He thanked me for doing this.
He was extremely polite and professional.
Why am I posting this?
It is to remind us that there are good cops out there, and sometimes we dwell on the gestapo, kick-your-door-down-and-shoot-the-dogs assholes we often read about.
Cheers,
TimB
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people...
They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson
And never forget, “Humans, despite our artistic pretensions, our sophistication and many accomplishments, owe the fact of our existence to a six-inch layer of topsoil and the fact that it rains.”
I haven't chimed in until now, but...
Over my years, I've found that most people of good will, who seek to support and uphold the good of others AS themselves, recognize when they are dealing with someone like-minded, even in a potentially adversarial situation, like a traffic stop.
I believe that most people who seek to serve in local law enforcement do so for noble reasons. I have yet to find a situation when I have failed to find that true, even in the few times that I caused them to operate within their prescribed pull-over protocols. When I've presented a calm, confident, and honest demeanor, I've found that, generally, I've gotten respectful treatment back.
Unfortunately, this is SO NOT the case when it comes to the TSA drones, oops, I mean agents, that have filled the news lately. I've begun to wonder if most ex-TSA won't eventually end up in some other kind of state or federal job by default, having NO ONE ELSE in the private sector who would hire them!
Cops of good conscience ought to have Our support, and ought to support Us when it comes to Liberty-lovers exposing corruption in their ranks. When bad cops violate the People's rights, they tarnish the honor of the rest.
For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it. - Patrick Henry
I hate to bring this down a
I hate to bring this down a notch, but why did he need your [papers] license, registration and insurance to tell you your light was out??
This may have been a "good cop" but the fact that you were arrested, and required to provide papers to a public servant is as un-American as it gets.
Lastly, good thing your name didn't match the name of an escaped felon, known criminal, computer glitch, etc...otherwise you may have been face down in the sand, and your baby in police custody until everything was cleared up.
my 2 cents.
Great Post! I have to share my story
Last year (April '09), after being unemployed for nearly 6 months, and with only unemployment insurance supporting me, I drove from CA to TX to take advantage of a very rare job interview. I decided to drive, staying overnight only at rest stops, because I calculated that I'd save about $250 as compared with flying (plus I'd have the liberty to "explore" other areas for work) along the way.
Any how, on my return trip back to CA, and driving along I-10 in SE CA, I was passed by a CHP officer who then pulled over (into the slow lane) about a third of a mile ahead of me. Since he'd slowed down considerably, I and several other travelers passed him in the fast lane several minutes later. Not long after, he pulled me over because I had expired registration tags (which I knew about, but didn't have many options to avoid him and the dozens of other officers passed during my 3k-mi adventure).
When he approached my vehicle he asked for current registration and proof of insurance, which at the time I had neither. I just knew I was fu%&*d. All I could do was just be honest... so I told him about my above situation, that I was returning from my only interview (where I learned that they weren't even in a position to hire anyone), and that all the money that I had was in support of only my most basic needs to survive (food, fuel, etc...). He kinda cut me off and said "hey, I here ya... let me go check your info out and I'll be right back." I said a short prayer.
He came back and said, "Here's what I'm gonna do... I'm going to give you a 'fix-it' citation --with 60 days to correct-- for the registration." "I'm not going to cite you though for the lack of insurance, because I understand your situation is very difficult, and doing so would just make matters worse for you... because that citation would come with an automatic $1800 fine ...and I don't want that to happen." Just take care of this registration (which required that I settle the outstanding insurance issue too) ticket within the 60 days."
I was clearly given a giant dose of grace. So, yes, I agree... we should give credit where credit is due. And in doing so, we can also maintain a higher level of credibility as we speak to others about our views, etc...
The story, has a happy ending 6 months later, when I finally landed a job as a city planner (probably the most libertarian-minded city planner in the state of CA!). Which reminds me... don't assume all govt. officials are part of the racket. I'm certainly not, and I'm in a position to effect/protect greater liberty.
just curious
any bumper stickers on your car?
Glad you posted this....
Similarly, I had an incident locally a few years ago that reinforced the same feeling in me.
I was doing yardwork at our home in NJ and realized I needed something at the local garden center. I jumped in the truck and headed off. I got skunked at the first place so I headed over to the Depot out on Rt46 in Totowa. I got nabbed in Fairfield, NJ by the local PD for an overdue inspection sticker.
Also, to my horror, I realized I left home without my wallet so I had no license with me. I did have my registration and insurance.
Mind you, I looked like a bum, covered in dirt, two day's growth of a beard driving an old, blue Ford F250.
Instead of ticketing me, like I expected, the policeman told me that as long as I brought my driver's license to the station within the next day or so, he'd let me go with a warning and told me to get my truck inspected! I did so and all was well.
Now I know there are some that will contend that he had no right to pull me over in the first place; that the state inspection of the vehicle is unconstitutional and therefore any penalty for not maintaining the inspection was also unconstitutional... And you may be right.
My point is, the cop had the perfect opportunity to be a dick and instead chose to be better than the system he represents. He saw that I had no record, the truck was not stolen and I posed no threat to the general public and that was good enough.
So yes, they are out there and they should be commended and applauded for their actions. Remember these stories the next time you see a YouTube video of a cop acting 'questionably' and at the very least agree not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
We are all individuals.
I may not know the truth, but I know when I'm being lied to...
bump
Thanks for the uplifting post.
cheers!
Website:
http://www.libertypoet.com/
Twitter:
http://twitter.com/LibertyPoet
"How can we justify to the unemployed and underemployed in the United States the incredible cost of maintaining a global empire?" - Dr. Ron Paul
Cops are good
It is nice to hear about the good Cops, considering being a police officer is like any other profession, you've got good and bad people in every industry. It is a shame that we rarely hear about the good guys. Sounds like this Cop was just doing his job protecting the community, their are many people who need to fix a car headlight in AZ to prevent being pulled over.
---
Washington Hopeful
That's a nice story
I live in Arizona, too. My Sheriff is a true patriot. His name is Paul Babeau and is the sheriff of Pinal County. The cops I know personally are all conservative and very supportive of the 2nd amendment. Are all of them that way? I am sure not. But they are individuals, not a collection.
There are a lot of young people trying to be cops because it pays good money and provides job security. A lot of them really do want to serve and to protect. I wish people would realize that.
Another thing. Cops are basically walking targets. It used to be that people would do anything they could to avoid killing a cop. Now they do everything they can to kill one. So, cops are a little more nervous than they used to be. Consequently, the less mature, intelligent ones will make mistakes and be obnoxious.
As to a poster below; I don't know why we have to go out of our way to glorify ourselves in light of that, though. So you outsmarted one and people here are impressed. I am not impressed. The first words out of your mouth would have left a bad taste in my mouth. And, if I were less intelligent and nervous, I might be inclined to behave the way this man did. So, hurray, you outsmarted a dumb guy.
Healthnut4freedom
The lip of truth shall be established forever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment...Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are His delight. Prov 12:19,22
I was pulled over in New Mexico and had an "Impeach Bush"
...sticker on my shirt, a big one, back in 2006. Small town cop, cowboy hat and all. I was definitely speeding. He gave me a friendly warning, then he pointed at my shirt and said "I like your shirt" and stuck out his hand and gave me a firm handshake.
A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life.
-- Muhammad Ali
wrong thread
how did that happen?
Good Point
Always a good reminder that we all deserve to be treated as individuals, not painted with the same brush as the rest of a group, or even with the actions of a single member of a group. Just because a white-supremacist supports Ron Paul, doesn't make me one because I support Ron Paul.
That said, what I want to know is how this officer treats a car full of members of certain other groups, say teenagers, Hispanics, etc. I believe officers should trust their instincts, use profiling based on real data (not statistics), and exercise good judgement, but at the same time, they need to be careful not to "let people off" because they like them.
I can remember being pulled over for a California licence plate in the family station wagon on the way to Texas. That's abuse of authority.
There's a reason why wealthier drug users don't go to jail nearly as often as the poor.
IMissLiberty
good job my man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
a big booya from new york...
..
...
"...the most memorable concern of mankind
is the guts it takes to
face the sunlight again."-Charles Bukowski
I had a run-in tonight with several cops
I bought a second car while my primary car is undergoing repairs. There is quite a difference between the two cars, so driving the one I got tonight will take some getting used to. While preparing to make a left turn through an intersection, not more than 5 minutes after making the purchase, I popped the car out of gear. I grabbed the shifter to put it back into gear while making my turn. Essentially, I made the turn without using a signal. The second car behind me was a cop and he wasted no time slipping in behind me to collect some revenue for the city. As he approached the car, I rolled the window down about 5 inches (plenty of void through which to converse). He knocked on my window and the following conversation took place:
The cop goes back to his car and, after about 20 minutes, two more cop cars pull in behind his. I was certain I was going to jail, but I didn't really care because I had given myself plenty of recourse on his recording to own his house, wife, kids, dog and shirt off his back by the time everything was said and done. The two newly-arrived cops met the first cop at his car, and all three began to approach my vehicle. They all stopped near the back of my car and began to have a long-winded conversation. I could only hear bits and pieces of it because of intermittently-passing traffic, but I'm sure the recording caught it all. I did hear the original officer say, "Well, no, because the first f-ing thing he asked was if I was recording." After about five more minutes of discussion, his corporal came to my window. He was actually very polite. That conversation went something like this:
The corporal then walked back to the other two officers behind my car and had another 5+ minute conversation while flipping back and forth through a book (it looked like a traffic code book, but I'm not certain). Again, I could only hear bits and pieces of the revenue agents' conversation, but, near the end, I did hear the first officer say, "trying to play f-ing Perry Mason," and, "spouting off the Transportation Code," and "trying to trap me with his smart-a-- bullsh-- games". After the latter, I heard the corporal say, "Welp - sounds like he did a pretty good job of that, don't you think? I'm gonna cut him loose." The corporal came back to my window, and...
I drove away and, for as far as I could see in my rear view mirror, the officers stood by the side of the road with their book and continued their discussions. The entire incident lasted about 45 minutes, start-to-finish. In my book, it's time well spent because I don't have to spend another 5 hours (including travel and wait time) putting them in their places in traffic court, I don't have to drag them through federal court over the next five years and I get to keep the revenue where it rightfully belongs - in my wallet.
For those of you who say, "Why do you want to make trouble? They should have tasered you. They should have beaten you. I would have pepper-sprayed you, beaten you with a rubber hose and taken you to jail. Blah-blah-blah..."... don't you think that if any one of those cops felt they had any little shred of lawful basis to do any of those things they would have done so? To you I say: you deserve to have them extract every penny they can get out of you when you have not caused harm, loss or injury and still cooperate with them. They can shove their unlawful statutes, and I'll be glad to help them and provide the baby oil.
I really wanted to take the discussion to how the Supreme Court has ruled that there is a distinct difference between laws and statutes, that anyone who fails to differentiate between the two commits fraud and that anyone committing such fraud is an impostor in his/her office - before asking the revenue agent to state for his recording whether he was acting upon laws or statutes tonight. Unfortunately the situation didn't get that far. :-( Oh well. Maybe next time.
bump bump bump
bump
“We have allowed our nation to be over taxed and over regulated and overrun by bureaucrats, the founders would be ashamed of us for what we're putting up with.” Ron Paul
That was gutsy!
Great approach.
Anybody think there should be a foundation which creates literature and holds seminars to educate cops? I think a substantial number of them could be brought to the pro-freedom side.
This story is total BS
It is nothing but a fantasy script conjured up in your own imagination. You can deny it, but I know when I'm being played. Nice try.
“Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information and religions destroy spirituality”
Sorry, Desert Rat
But I followed the scenario Echelon scribed as totally believable.
I might be tempted to second guess my exact phrasing, as to what I might have said or done in the same encounter, but I KNOW the level of respectful behavior he was displaying, could, and should have caused him to expect more of the kind of response he got from the higher-up, than what he got from the first beat-cop.
Forty-five minutes is a reasonable amount of time to resolve this situation. No crime appeared to be of anyones' concern, no i.d. was necessary, end of story.
A peaceful and respectful outcome was enjoyed by all.
What's your problem with that?
BTW I've had two similar, yet different encounters, and I still enjoy a respectful banter with my local police,... at least so far.
For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it. - Patrick Henry
Apparently you don't
...if you unquestioningly consent. Every day the traffic cops and municipal court officials wake up and thank God for people like you.
your an ass-what harm could
your an ass-what harm could have it been to comply in the first place and then if something were to happen you could spew all the crap out of your mouth-it is instances like these that make them act like an ass to the next person and I hope it isnt me...there was no provocation on his part and you wasted his time.
"...the most memorable concern of mankind
is the guts it takes to
face the sunlight again."-Charles Bukowski
"No provocation"???
It was a warrantless arrest. The alleged police officer, who, by the way has no mandated indemnity bond, liability insurance, drivers license, or oath of office to uphold the constitution and protect the citizens and their property, is guilty of several misdemeanors and one felony.
And if the next person blindly consents
...to things they don't understand, that's my fault? But you're right - what an incredible a-hole I must be for standing my ground, calling their bluff and forcing them to act within the laws they're sworn to uphold and defend, like I pay them to do.
Echelon,
Good story and it pays to know your rights and the Law.
But a question for you...
Doesn't your comment "drag them through federal court" automatically cause you to consent to the decision making power of the court and submit you to the way they want to do things?
I'm curious as to how much consent you actually are giving them, if any...which I assume to be the case.
My Christian/Political Blog:
We the Serfs! Blog
In such situations you generally have three choices
If you wish to address an issue where someone has violated your rights then #3 is obviously the most prudent path. However, there is a big difference between consenting to the court's authority where it has none because you've caused no harm, loss or injury; and asking a court to help you become vindicated wherein you still reserve your rights. There's a difference between being the accused and the accuser, and between defending yourself against statutes and laws without claim of Corpus Delicti.
Ironically, it is the decision-making power of the court that has brought lawful rulings saying that there is no crime without harm, loss or injury; and that statutes are not laws; and that statutes can be substituted for laws when we consent to such.
Nicely done. Where did you
Nicely done.
Where did you learn all these things to say? If you learned it from a particular book, please do share it with us.
...
Hi John
It's not really about, "if they say this, then you say that." You just have to understand a few things and stand your ground on them, while playing somewhat dumb:
The bottom line is that, under the law, no one - no court, no officer and basically no human being - is allowed to deprive you of life, liberty or property (which includes your money) without one of the following...
...and laws trump statutes unless you consent otherwise. Once all of that clicks, you don't really have to think about what to say. It does take some time to click, though, in some cases. I've been studying the issues for a few years now, and only now is it really starting to sink in and flow back out when needed.
When dealing with anyone who seeks to impose statutes upon you, one important thing to remember is that you should avoid, to the greatest extent possible, making declaratory statements. Rather, you should ask as many questions as possible. I could have done a better job of that above, but it all worked out. Anything you say can and will be used against you - when you make declaratory statements. Your questions cannot be held against you, and there is no law saying you have to answer police questions. How many times have you heard of cops saying something to the effect of, "Oh, yeah?! You know your rights, huh?! You know the law, huh?! I'll tell you your rights! Turn around and put your hands behind your back!"? This usually happens (and is to be expected) when people make declaratory statements. The game changes significantly, however, when you ask, "By what law and what authority do you impose this on me? What law says I have to do that? What does the law say about what you're telling me to do? Isn't it true that the law says you must have an injured party for me to have committed a crime? Where can I find the specific law compelling me to do what you're ordering me to do? Is that law or statute? What law says I have to obey that statute? What is your lawful basis?"
Another very important thing to remember is that, quite often, when officers are speaking with you, they are making statements, asking questions and employing intimidation tactics intended to stimulate a reaction from you. They are assessing you to see whether you'll react or respond. As one very wise man said, "If someone pokes me with a tack, and I say, 'Ouch!' - that is a reaction. If someone pokes me and I say, 'By what right and for what reason do you poke me? Are you aware of the potential lawful consequences against you for poking me?' - that is a response." Once you begin making reactionary statements to cops or courts, getting you to consent to their unlawful statutes, knowingly or unknowingly, is a piece of cake. If, however, you respond with intelligent questions, they (cops and courts) are put into defensive mode (and in some cases begin making a last-ditch effort to intimidate and scare you into submission).
You should always obey lawful orders, but you have EVERY RIGHT to question whether or not the orders are actually lawful. You have every right to hold police responsible for meeting and providing a lawful basis for their orders. An order is not automatically lawful just because it comes from a cop's mouth, and you have every right to make them establish a lawful basis upon which your compliance must always rest. But do it with questions - not declaratory statements.
Also remember that, frequently, cops don't even follow their own statutes - they just make them up and misconstrue them as they go along. In my case above, for example, the Transportation Code (statutes) essentially says that "driving" is an act of commerce, and that "motor vehicle" means an automobile used for commerce. Further, it says that a driver's license is required for driving (commerce). It defines two types of licenses - a temporary learner's permit and a commercial license, neither one of those being the kind that most of us have. So, when a cop says, "You're driving," and I don't dispute it (with questions) then the cop has essentially said, "You're engaged in some sort of commerce," and I have admitted to it. When a cop says, "Give me your driver's license," and I just hand it over without asking which of the two defined types he or she is demanding, then I have acquiesced that I am driving, which automatically obligates me to the statutes pertaining to commercial travel (which say I can be punished without having committed a crime under the law). Interestingly enough, even their own statutes often work against them as the enforcers often times just make them up/misinterpret them on the fly. If you don't know which ones to dispute or how to dispute them, and a cops lies to you and tells you something is law, and you go along with it, you have consented to give up at least some of your rights. So sometimes it helps to be at least somewhat familiar with the statutes you're refuting, in case you do accidentally bind yourself to them. But there must always be remedy. No remedy = no law.
Unless you're being investigated for a specific crime, which cannot exist without corpus delicti, you're not required to identify yourself under the law. Statutes, however, say you must give ID for any reason whatsoever, or no reason at all, any time a cop feels like asking for it. When a cop asks for your ID under statutes and you give it up without making the cop provide a lawful basis, then you've just consented to the statutes.
Always obey the law, but know that 9 times out of 10 when cops say, "It's the law," they're referring to statutes - not law. Be responsible. If you know you've broken an actual law, wherein you've caused harm, loss or injury to someone else, then do what the cops say (but still make sure it's lawful). Never, under any circumstances, consent to anything unless there is a clear lawful basis for doing so. Don't ever let anyone talk down to you for simply making cops establish lawful basis. In fact, such behavior was envisioned and encouraged by the Founders. All of this "because I'm a cop and I said so" crap has to stop, but it will never stop as long as people continue to blindly consent and submit to it.
Once all of this sinks in the "what do I say" part just happens.
I apologize for the late response as I've been extremely busy with work. Feel free to contact me offline and I'll be glad to elaborate on my answer much more. Just please know it may be a few days.
Do you have a website?
Do you have a website? Or can you post some links that explain what the difference between a law and a statute is?
And the difference between a last name and family name? I think in Europe, it's called a surname, and not a "last name". First name is called a Christian name or a given name.
dude
Not bad...not bad at all. Your dialogue is nice. You should try screenwriting.
What a GREAT
bullsh!t story, Echelon!