It Is Now Mathematically Impossible To Pay Off The U.S. National Debt

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http://libertypulse.com/article/4148

A lot of people are very upset about the rapidly increasing U.S. national debt these days and they are demanding a solution. What they don't realize is that there simply is not a solution under the current U.S. financial system. It is now mathematically impossible for the U.S. government to pay off the U.S. national debt. You see, the truth is that the U.S. government now owes more dollars than actually exist. If the U.S. government went out today and took every single penny from every single American bank, business and taxpayer, they still would not be able to pay off the national debt. And if they did that, obviously American society would stop functioning because nobody would have any money to buy or sell anything.

http://libertypulse.com/article/4148

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if

governments run debt-based systems.. how are there creditor nations that have no debt whatsoever? Is it just because they are exporting nations?

You apparently never ran a failing business.

You still can sell the assets , which is the domain they are about to enter at a faster pace ..
I beleive this is the plan...They have already pilaged personal savings & retirement plans ,two times in 20 years..There are other sellouts that already were accomplished.
The World has been fiercly engaged for 20 years in, simple asset swaps, in order to bring the World together, NWO.
Mix it up so to speak, brings on NO alliegence.

I discuss this issue in my Critique of Montagne

Edward Flaherty has already addressed the idea that any monetary system subject to interest ultimately terminates itself under insoluble debt in his rebuttal of Jaikaran’s book, The Debt Virus:

Jaikaran's main warning is that if we wished to repay all the debt, we would be unable to do so because of the shortage of money. But why would we wish to retire all the outstanding debt in the economy? Loans and bonds have a variety of maturities and only the most remarkable synchronicity would have them all, or any appreciable portion of them, come due at once.

Remarkably, the Austrians conceded to Montagne his third premise. He quotes a Ron Paul supporter: “While an interest based monetary system eventually breaks down because of greed, corruption and the intractable problem of insoluble debt, there is no reasonable alternative.”

Leaderless youth! Paul has given these kids no guidance, only bumper sticker slogans. They let Montagne’s labor theory of value go unchallenged, conceded to him the kernel of his theory, the “intractable problem of insoluble debt,” and then beat on him with a sponge. “Math cannot predict human action!!!”

Critique of Montagne's Mathematically Perfected Economy

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Shaka, you so crazy! www.axiomaticeconomics.com

"Remarkably, the Austrians

"Remarkably, the Austrians conceded to Montagne his third premise. He quotes a Ron Paul supporter: “While an interest based monetary system eventually breaks down because of greed, corruption and the intractable problem of insoluble debt, there is no reasonable alternative.”

One Ron Paul supporter does not make a revolution, nor does one 'supporter" speak for the whole, nor does the fact that Montagne quotes a "supporter" of Dr. Paul mean that there is any concession to any of the tripe spewed out by Montagne and his cult followers. Myself, I have spent well over two years contesting Mike Montagne and his mini-minions, and raised questions that they simply cannot answer. Montagne goes into an absolute rage when he hears my name, in the same manner that he goes into a rage when he hears your name mentioned.

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

Good for you!

I wrote my Critique of Montagne almost two years ago at the request of a Daily Paul discussant. At that time I searched the internet and was unable to find any replies from Austrians other than the ones quoted in my paper.

In spite of our efforts, however, the debt virus theory is gaining momentum. Probably half of the e-mails I receive are from debt-virus adherents demanding to know how I could be so stupid as to not buy into their "Planet Doom" scenario.

The socialist's denounciations of anybody who employs the axiomatic method as being autistic is a methodological issue. But the primary thrust of modern socialism on policy issues is to give the Treasury Department free rein to print money, a plan whose theoretical underpinnings is the debt virus theory, though they do not always use that term.

This would be catastrophic. I'm no apologist for the Fed, but I can tell you this: If Zarlenga's American Monetary Act ever becomes law, the dollar will be dead in a week. That cannot be said of the Fed, who can be expected to blunder forward in their usual way.

____________________________________

Shaka, you so crazy! www.axiomaticeconomics.com

Montagne and his followers

Montagne and his followers have been pretty much debunked by every AE student that took the time to read his disjointed, rant-filled, incoherent and crack-pot website. He and his followers, along with his pitiful "theories" have been easily contested on the Mises Forum, in fact I believe that a few of his followers have been banned from that site, not because they presented a comprehensive case for their position, but because they resorted to blatant attacks against other members on the site...similar to some we have seen here by his minions.

If you read his replies to me, both on this site and on Nolan Charts, you can readily see that he has a distinct tendency to allow a lack of self-control to manifest itself in the public forum if he and his half-baked "theories" are questioned.

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

Hasn't that been the game plan all along?

.

=======
RON PAUL 2012

That's a wonderful quote for

That's a wonderful quote for the Honorable General and Patriot Robert E. Lee!

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

Silly

The US Treasury could print $12 trillion in new bills tomorrow and use them to pay off the debt. Not impossible. Devastating to the value of the dollar, but not impossible.

You're retarded.

I'm sorry to be mean; I'm sorry to be blunt, but come on... think about what you write before you write it.

It is now mathematically impossible for the U.S. government to pay off the U.S. national debt.

That's ridiculous. Money moves around; its fluid!

If the U.S. government went out today and took every single penny from every single American bank, business and taxpayer, they still would not be able to pay off the national debt. And if they did that, obviously American society would stop functioning because nobody would have any money to buy or sell anything.

Ok, who owns the debt?
People who own treasury bills.

So if we start to pay off the debt who gets the money?
The people who own treasury bills.

So who will have money?
People America who own treasury bills.

How does the government get money?
Taxing Americans.

How will it get more money?
By taxing the people who it just gave money to.

What will it do with that new money?
Give it to other people who own treasury bills.

And so the circle of debt destruction goes on... and on... until all that is left is 'hard' (I use that term very loosely) currency.

those people

only carry the debt at profit.

I don't know if your correct

If there is only 2 trillion in currency and there is 12 trillion in t bills. The government buys back the first 2 trillion to forgin intrests. The intrests would have to send the money to get it back into circulation. Then a 100% confiscation would have to happen to redo the process. Repeat 6 times and debt paid.
I guess it's not impossible just implausable. Kinda the same thing no?

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I guess it's not impossible

I guess it's not impossible just implausable. Kinda the same thing no?

No. Not the same thing.

Look, words have explicit meanings. You can be the smartest person in the world, and if you don't take the time to say what you actually mean, then you'll come off as a buffoon.

It is NOT, I repeat NOT, "MATHEMATICALLY" impossible to repay the debt.

At the current debt level its quite possible to pay it down the debt.

I think

It was impossible to pay off a debt with fiat currency, before it became mathematically impossible lol.

You cant pay off a debt with fiat currency because it has no intrinsic value. You can only compile the debt. It's dpendant on the next generation of slave laborors to continue the ponzi pyramid scheme. The more it compiles the more they will have to toil and so on and so forth. Only those who control the monetary system benefit from it, by stealing the workers labor and thus buying up all the real wealth of the world, ie gold, silver, minerals, natural resources ect.

Yes this is a generational scheme dependant on the next generation of slave laborors, ie bonded individuals. Once they tag you with the Birth Certificate, you're commerce. Your children are the only thing of real tangible value to them. They keep the illusion going. This is why our borders remain open. It's all an illusion that we willingly accept, because we were trained and indoctrinated by and into their system. You could never pay off the debt to begin with, you could only make the money changers richer.

More misunderstandings about how...

our economy and a fiat money system work. In fact, misunderstanding how money works in general.

I agree Wolfe....

I agree Wolfe....

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

The entire foreign debt was

The entire foreign debt was repudiated back in 71 and the creditors were forced to accept a total fiat currency [essentially worthless] as a form [asset] of repayment. Essentially, the world accepted worthless paper instead of the gold they were owed; this action imputed value to an otherwise worthless medium. Repudiation is the name of the fiat game after all. Inflating the debt away is an old trick, I see no reason why it would not be done again.

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

Nothing is impossible

When fiat dollars are concerned.

debt dollars & fiat dollars

Debt dollars are from the Fed.
Fiat dollars are from the Treasury in the form of coin.

By executive order the President could tell the Treasury to coin as much as needed.

"It is now mathematically impossible for the U.S. government to pay off the U.S. national debt."
"mathematically impossible".
LibertyPulse.com, if the Treasury makes $14 trillion in fiat coin, which law of mathematics is broken?

Fiat dollars are based upon

Fiat dollars are based upon the decree of government that they are legal tender. If you think that the FED is independent of or operates solely upon its own behalf then you are sorely mistaken, the primary beneficiary of the monetary policies of the Federal Reserve System is the government, it always has been and that was the purpose of the Federal Reserve to benefit government and allow it to avoid the political implications of heavy taxation of the people. By using inflation of a fiat monetary system the government could, by slight of hand, by-pass normal taxation, which is politically dangerous and in its place implement the hidden taxation of inflation through fiat depreciation.

Fiat is any type of money that arises out of an involuntary market condition imposed upon the people by government legal tender laws which force the people to use the government's money [Federal Reserve Notes]. The FED simply sells U.S. Treasuries and acts as a clearing house for the Fiat Federal Reserve Notes issued by the Treasury. The FED is nothing more than an arm of the political powers in Washington and was the creation of both bankers and politicians in concert with certain socio-political goals that preclude Constitutional Order. At one time however, what was called "paper dollars" were nothing more than receipts, payable to the bearer upon demand actual gold or silver, which was, in fact, the real money that the paper receipts represented.

The fact that the Treasury can coin base metals is no different than if the Treasury prints paper money [all Federal Reserve Notes are printed by the Treasury in the U.S. Bureau of Printing and Engraving, the FED does not print or issue Federal Reserve Notes], the result will still be the same depending upon the amount of increase in the monetary base. If you coin $14 Trillion Dollars in base metal coin, without asset value backing those coins the effect will be the same, the value of the coin will be depreciated through inflation. Treasury Notes would still be issued and sold in the open market so what difference would it make in terms of what type of fiat currency is used. There are several examples of coinage in history where the content of the coin was so diluted that the value of the coins no longer held a utility as a medium of exchange. Between dilution of the precious metal content or chipping of the coins the effect was the same.

It there was an executive order to the Treasury to coin as much money as "needed" [whatever that means?] there would still be no solution to the overall problem, either of the debt or the problem of inflation, the effect would be the same.

At one time in this country Treasury Notes were not marketed as they are now, nor was there a bond market under a gold monetary system since there was no need for one. The bond markets, which is a debt market, provides a system whereby the fiat monetary system has value imputed to the currency, in other words it is the organization of debt into currency, whether it be fiat paper or fiat coin. As I said, at one time a Treasury Note was issued and sold, but it was not payable to the bearer upon demand and required endorsement for redemption, they could not be traded, nor was is used as legal tender in the markets, nor was it a money substitute. It also paid interest to the bearer, but it could not be reissued. The organization of debt into currency [fiat paper or coin] is based purely on a system of government fiat [decree by law] and is always imposed and has never arose voluntarily in the market place.

Oh, keep an eye on the penny...it will tell you a great deal about the real state of the economy; they have tried debasement of the copper penny, which only has a thin layer of copper clad on it, now let's see if they do away with it altogether since it cost more to manufacture a penny than it's worth. The same can probably be said with the other coins in the U.S. Currency System, let's see what happens to them.

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

on topic

This thread creator claimed it is mathematically impossible to pay off federal gov't debt. Thread title "It Is Now Mathematically Impossible To Pay Off The U.S. National Debt".
Shall we stay on topic and not assume what I am thinking?

Republicae wrote:
"If you coin $14 Trillion Dollars in base metal coin, without asset value backing those coins the effect will be the same, the value of the coin will be depreciated through inflation."

There would be monetary inflation. The new $14T in coin from the Treasury could pay off the debt.
I'm not advocating it. I'm just observing that it's not mathematically impossible.

Sorry, but your grammatical

Sorry, but your grammatical construction makes it difficult to determine exactly what you were saying in your post.

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

not mathematically impossible

Those who say it is mathematically impossible to pay of the federal government debt are incorrect.

Here is a possible mechanism to pay off the federal debt within weeks:
1) Congress passes law instructing the US Mint to strike coins with a large face value ($1M or $1B).
2) All government bonds are called in, and the new coins are exchanged for all outstanding government bonds.

This example shows how it is possible. I'm not advocating this is done.

"The fact that the Treasury can coin base metals is no different than if the Treasury prints paper money ..."

There is a huge difference. Federal Reserve Notes are debt. US Mint coins have no debt.

Now, that is much

Now, that is much better...thanks

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

I could be wrong but..

I believe I read somewhere that interest payments had to be in gold or silver. Even if all $12 trillion of debt was in physical notes and returned to the FR, that would only cover the principal. It's an endless cycle.

It's not impossible.

When the big banks ran out of money in 2008, what happened?

They coerced congress into borrowing more money into existence. This raised the level of the national debt higher.
Congress then authorized the Fed to print or issue, eventually trillions of new dollars.

So, the only way the national debt can be paid off is to allow real money { Gold/Silver }to go way, way, up in dollar value.

Lets say the 261 million ounces of Gold claimed to be held in storage is revalued to 1 million or whatever amount is needed per ounce, this would be enough to pay off any national debt.

Currently the countries stored Gold is valued at $42.222 per ounce, a ridiculous valuation when people are paying well over $1,000 per ounce for Gold.

Article 1
Section 8
Congress shall have the power to coin money and "Regulate" the value thereof,,,

beesting

this is why Ron Paul is

this is why Ron Paul is telling us to prepare for civil unrest and martial law..

“Defiance of God’s Law will eventually bring havoc to a society.” - Dr. Ron Paul

It is ALWAYS impossible...

In a debt-based currency.

The Money Masters

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." ~ Margaret Mead

Actually, the whole reason

Actually, the whole reason for the debt-based system is to avoid the repayment of debt, why do you think governments love fiat money? Why repay debt at the same value at which you incurred the debt when you can repay debt with a drastically reduced "money" that has been rendered virtually worthless in terms of purchasing power? It is simply an accepted form of debt repudiation, nothing more. For every 4% of inflation there is an effective reduction in the debt of around a half-trillion dollars. You make the dollar worthless in reality but it retains its face value, since all debt is accounted for in terms of face value instead of actual purchase value, the effect would be to inflate the debt away, while not painless it is a solution that government's have taken throughout history...our government is not above such monetary deceptions I can assure you. While hyper-inflation would completely expose the government's sham for what it really is, the government can inflate the money supply to the point that a double digit inflationary rate would wipe out a large portion of the debt burden. There are other "fiat tricks" that are still readily available to this government and none of them are out of the scope of this government's power.

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

Exactly

The system of debt-money ALWAYS leads to this.
Profligate spending and war speeds up the process vastly, however.