Legal Immigration is as bad as illegal

As the classical economists pointed out (Bastiat, I believe) everyone arrives with two hands and a mouth. They produce and they consume. There are not a finite number of jobs...jobs are created and destroyed all the time. If there is job destruction going on, don't blame the immigrants. Blame the people who created a system that steals wealth and gives it to the unworthy, that licenses and regulates economic activity until it collapses, and that subsidizes failure.

The immigrant is not the problem. He did not vote for the redistributionists. He did not lobby for welfare. He did not vote to cripple the competition. He just works.

you have to have an increasing population of "suckers", otherwise, it starts to unravel.
.

I have another comment (sorry).

I can only speak for my own community.

My community of Asian immigrants.

They did not come here to escape starvation, religious persecution, or death.

They came here to escape "poverty."

By "poverty," I mean that they would have had enough food to eat until they died of old age, disease, or accident. Just like American citizens. They would have had a roof over their head until the day they died, albeit a small roof in a small apartment.

By "poverty," I mean that they would not have been considered rich in their own country.

They did not have the ability and connections to become wealthy in their home country.

But they DID have just enough money to move to America.
Where they worked like slaves at bottom-level jobs, and tortured their children (research "Tiger Moms" and child abuse)..in pursuit of an "American Dream" that has nothing to do with freedom and independence, and everything to do with two-car garages and name-brand luxury items.

Should non-profit agencies, hard-working American citizens (whose grandparents built this country), and the government all bend over backwards and sacrifice so that these people can have MORE MATERIAL WEALTH in this country than they would have earned in their home countries?

America should be the home of the free and the brave.
Not the greedy.

Sincerely,

Ship me...and all of my people..back to our country.
I welcome it.

As a child of legal immigrants...

who is "highly educated" and works within the community of legal immigrants, mainly in order to try to prevent the kind of abuse and delusion that exists among legal immigrants...

I would love for the "immigration debate" to turn towards legal immigration.

I do not discount the benefits to American society, including cheap and obedient labor, fusion food, and super motivated geniuses who will do anything to break out of the confines of immigrant America.

But I encourage all Americans who care about America someday growing out of this perpetual adolescence (which I believe is caused by the fact that we import squawling newborns by the millions every year) and someday growing as a nation...

to examine the fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE for adults who:

1) cannot speak or understand English
2) do not know or understand American culture or manners

and

3) were never financially successful in their home countries (or employable)

to raise healthy, productive, profitable American children.

I have read article after article on the ills of illegal immigration, and it really makes me angry that nobody seems to understand that the only difference between legal and illegal immigrants is that illegal immigrants distantly fear deportation. Except for Ron Paul.

This is the only website I have found that acknowledges that ignorant legal immigrants are just as harmful to America as ignorant illegal immigrants!!

People: imagine American citizens raised by the mentally handicapped! Immigrant parents are dumb and blind!

Humans are the best source of energy. Their capacity to create and produce wealth out does any other natural resource in existence.

SO BOTH illegal and legal immigrants are good BUT ONLY IF they are educated on the free market and the constitution. Otherwise they are not good.

Solution: give Illegal immigrants Amnesty ONLY if they agree to do a Free Market Constitutionalist educational course. And exclude them from taking on ANY government benefits/handouts/welfare. Make it a requirement for legal immigrants to do same.

Why not put fundamental free market and constitionalist information on all planes incoming to the USA so that everyone knows the kind of country they are visiting?

Although I do figure that there may be short term issues supporting a certain quantity of humans if the internal agricultural industry is not capable of producing sufficient amounts of food (like Germany pre WW2). But this is the only critical issue on numbers of people coming in: food management. On all other counts, its better to have more people who understand the free market/constitution.

Of course the socialists probably want to immigrate people who run to welfare in order to expand their base.

@Treg: That was a nice post, thankyou. Here is the video link to THE INCREDIBLE BREAD MACHINE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycGRERrGsMo

:-)

This anti-immigrant essay is simply ALL WET.

First mistake is to think that Jobs are fixed.
They are not, they are CREATED.
The second mistake is to think that Wealth is fixed, it is not, its CREATED.

FACT: There is not, nor has there EVER BEEN a fixed quantity of JOBs or Wealth to a DYNAMIC SOCIETY AND ECONOMY.

It is usually simple minded liberals (who usually) think that way. It is people of all stripes and colors who think that way, and thus they do not "GET" the Free Market System as being a DYNAMIC HUMAN WEALTH MACHINE - JOB CREATION SYSTEM. For these souls I often recommend a beginner book called "The Incredible Bread Machine". After they read the book, http://www.amazon.com/Incredible-Bread-Machine-Capitalism-Fr... then I recommend they watch the 1970's movie also called THE INCREDIBLE BREAD MACHINE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycGRERrGsMo This movie works hard, indeed it works overtime to explain that wealth & jobs are never fixed and that the KEY to keeping the Incredible WEALTH & JOB creation machine going is to ALL FREEDOM TO REIGN SUPREME.

Freedom is Counter Intuitive to people, to all Humans. For if it was not, Mankind would have discovered it and lived it for 50,000 years. Freedom must be learned, like Algebra, it does not come natural to ones thinking. And like just about all of libertarian theory, the answer on Immigration is COUNTER INTUITIVE. Which means, the majority of people will never "get it".

1+1=2, 1-1=0, 2-2=0... is all naturally intuitive to Mankind's mind.

However, -1+-1=__?, and -1--1=__?, -2--2=__?, Yes the fact that you had to THINK demonstrate to you that not all MATH is Intuitive as 10+10=20, no, SOME PROBLEMS are very COUNTER INTUITIVE. While I found most of mathematics and Newtonian & applied physics very intuitive, I quickly found that quantum mechanics and general relativity was not and simply boggles the mind (bending light? curved space? a wave is a particle? the act of measuring collapses a wave function? a photon has no rest mass?).

As I said, Counter Intuitive answers simply Boggle the Mind of Man. And the same is true for most of economic science. Economics asks questions that have COUNTER INTUITIVE Answers. Worst of all, over 100,000 + years of living on the Pleistocene has given us an "economics of mind" that works for small 100-500 unit tribal groups living on the African plain, but it does not help modern Man living inside societies in the thousands, millions, and billions. http://www.amazon.com/Darwinian-Politics-Evolutionary-Freedo...

Most people when asked questions that have answers, but those answers are COUNTER INTUITIVE, prefer to say that the problem "does not have an answer",... and so they feel free to offer their opinion and even go so far to say that any OPINION is equally valid. Yet give them the COUNTER INTUITIVE answer and most people respond Negatively, they may even HATE the answer.

For example:

"Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg?"
The answer of course is the egg... but nobody likes the answer and most seek to claim it's unsolvable. It is unsolvable to THEM, but the problem itself is NOT unsolvable. If they seek an unsolvable problem they should find the last number for Pi.

Just the same is Immigration. The answer is COUNTER INTUITIVE. We FREEDOM Advocates should be aware of this at all times, for when we advocate Freedom, we are telling people something that deep down, they can't imagine HOW freedom works. And of course in the case of immigration, Americans NEED MORE Immigrants, not Less.

But before I get into that, lets talk about CHILDREN.
Millions of children "enter the workforce" each year. Indeed they are "worse" than immigrants who come ready to work and with some skills, CHILDREN need 18-20 years of food, housing, and education even before they can start working and "pay back society".

Do you see the fallacy? The above uses the same intuitive 'reasoning' used for immigrants, just applied to Children. Does this mean then to have MORE JOBS we need to STOP having Children? No.

Do you know the TV game show Survivor? Its premise is that of PEOPLE are a NET COST over the LONG RUN and a NET gain in the short run. To win the game, make temporary friends to befriend later at the optimum time. When that optimum time is is the thrill of the show.

Well the social life of Mankind is NOT fixed in that fashion. It is indeed the other way around. People are a NET GAIN over the long run and an NET cost only in the SHORT RUN. Hence, to win the Game of Life, build a free society that maximizes freedom in all areas so that the PAY OFF to society is realized as the LONG RUN returns of MORE People Pay off. Indeed, if you are student of evolution and anthropology, you have studied case after case where those societies/tribes/villages/towns/cultures who protected the young & the old, the invalid and the sick, PROSPERED. Those that culled their numbers, lost in the long run, why? Because PEOPLE are a NET benefit to Society as a whole. Our instincts to help our fellow man is set to "just enough"... that is, just enough help and assistance but not so much as to be taken advantage of. Our natural human charity is a good thing, we practice it daily. And our natural human instinct to not get taken advantage of is also a good thing.

SO when it comes to immigration many are seeing the trees but not the forest. It is not immigrants who are taking advantage of us in society, rather it is our government whom we've delegated much of the job of charity that is getting taken advantage of. Government Welfare has got to GO. But like Ronald Reagan once said, PRIVATE Charities are a must and should blossom once more across America. The charities that we know and love today, came at a period of time when America was at its freest. The March of Dimes, The RED CROSS, Hospitals, yes HOSPITALS where built by the super rich and the Churches all in a healthy competition to build a long lasting LEGACY. Shriner's Hospitals and Catholic Hospitals being just one of many. Once upon a time in America, they were all Free. Donations where asked, not demanded. Service was ALWAYS rendered, to anyone, Atheists, national enemies and even criminals too. Everyone.

Here is a thought experiment for many of you who are not convinced of the counter intuitive answer to immigration --- that the answer is MORE FREEDOM of movement than Less.

Thought Experiment: The date is 366 BC. Both you and Aristotle are 18 years of age, living in Athens Greece. The current population of Athens is just under 100,000 people. The young Aristotle ask you a question & you answer him with your Counter Intuitive ANSWER.

Young Aristotle-- "Gee, I don't know how many more of these Persians, Gauls, & Spartans we can accept into our city. We are being over run with too many people. There just is not enough work here. Why are all these people crossing our city boundaries and coming here?"

You--"Well do you remember how life was back when your father, Nicomachus was the personal physician to late King Amyntas of Macedon? Athens only had 30,000 people then. But now that it has over 98,000 people, yes its tripled! Would you not say life in Athens is a lot better? A lot Richer? A lot more things for us to buy? A lot more olive oil to spread on our dry skin? A lot more food to enjoy? A lot more furniture to rest our weary bodies? A lot more paintings and art for us to ponder? I submit to you my dear friend Aristotle that Athens needs more people, not less. And to answer your question "Why are they coming here?" I can only suggest it our Athenian liberties and democracy. There is nothing like it in the world today. My teachers tell me there has never been anything like it, and he was taught at the greatest of universities and schooled in the best of libraries, Alexandria Egypt!"

Young Aristotle-- "Well you may be right that they all come here to enjoy OUR liberties. But what RIGHT do they have to OUR liberties? To OUR democracy? They are Spartans, Guals, and Persians after all! They should go back from where they came I say! They change my precious Athens so much that my father hardly recognizes his dear city. OK, I agree we have more things to enjoy, much more than my father ever had. But this is because we Athenians are better. Have you seen these blond haired Guals at work? They come from the Northern territories because our men love their fair bodies, blue seductive eyes and long legs, but they have NOT proved themselves good for anything else. They take to household slavery like a duck takes to water. And those Persians are a dirty lot, refuse to bathe in the pools with other Athenian men and they even eat with their hands! Then there are those Spartans who challenge us constantly at our war games but I will grant you they do work hard at the feet of our ships. But I suspect the reasons is they wish to learn how to build better ships than our own and take this knowledge back to Sparta! Send them all away I say!"

You -- "My dear young Aristotle...How do you imagine the city will look when you are your fathers age of 73? Will the people look the same? As you say, those Guals are seductive and beautiful. Further, have you noticed that both the children of the Persians and even the children of the Spartans prefer to speak Greek? They love our games and they love our ways...indeed they are Greek. They will be our age of 18 when we are not even your father's age. And the things they know and learn! Notice how clever the young are! They keep the best from their fathers and deliver this knowledge to us all. From sailing knots to the number ZERO! We did not even think of that one! I will let in a million Persians just to learn one more incredible piece of knowledge that only the Gods have! Perhaps its true that a Persian actually did steal this knowledge from the Gods, for have you noticed how we now use the ZERO in everything we do? Its changed us for the better! I see your eyes light up when I say we need a million more people. Yes that is what I say, a million MORE people, for people are a net benefit to us all as long as we keep our charities small and our liberties vast."

The young Aristotle -- "A million more! You are insane! Where will they sleep? Where will they work? What could they eat? Athens barely feeds and clothes the 98,002 citizens it now has! You must be crazy. It is provably impossible to even place 1 million people inside the city of Athens! Every mathematician will tell you this. It is as provable as 2 + 2 = 4. There is only so much room, so much food, so much jobs, so much SPACE !!!"

You -- "Well my dear friend. We are young, just 18, and I suspect by the time that you and I are 50 our beloved city of Athens will be 1 million strong. I suspect we will all have enough food to eat, places to sleep, and things to do. You see my dear friend, people are wealth. People are a net benefit to other people. People makes us richer, not poorer. Imagine it this way my dear friend. Imagine that you and I are living with those living in the sands. If my tent has all 15 of my family members and your family has all 214 of yours, who is the more wealthy family? Who is better off? By your logic we should be the wealthy family."

Young Aristotle -- "Well my family is now 218 strong! Yours is very small at just 15, you must get busy my friend before it is too late! Perhaps you need to get several wives, perhaps even a Gual or two! Get those children to herd some goats! You can't have many goats with such small family! Where will be the milk, the hides, the cheese? Just five people in our family manage 1000 goats! By dividing our tasks among us, life is much better, whereas in your small family, you will all have to do many many tasks. Mmmm, yes, yes I see what you mean, people are wealth. And yes, I think I see now that our city of Athens will be forever changing, growing and providing for itself. Athens is not like it was in my fathers day, nor will it be the same in my son's day some 40 years from now. We will all enjoy the benefits of liberty, mix, marry, live and grow. Athens has never been static, fixed and never will. She shall live forever!"

Of course the above is imaginary fiction. Athens today is over 4 million strong. But this does not mean that Athens will live forever. There are very strong forces (ideas) in Athens that want to make her static, limit growth, limit immigration, production, and most of Freedom. These leftist anarchist and socialist in Athens today are those who fail to see the answers to their problems have COUNTER INTUITIVE answers. They fail to see that Freedom is Dynamic, that PEOPLE are a NET benefit to all and short term cost to only a few. They fail to see the Free Market as FREEDOM writ large, and most of all they fail to see that people will choose Freedom, even if they fail to appreciate it on an intellectual level.

Well, this is just one reason among many that I disagree with the anti-immigration position.

Thanks for listening.

In Peace & Liberty,

Treg

It may seem counter-intuitive to some...but employing protectionist measures in the name of saving US jobs will hurt our economy.

I don't know how the country looks from your view, but I associate with some hiring managers and the one view they have on jobs is that they are deluged with unqualified and poorly educated job seekers. It is unspoken in the media, but there is a serious deficit in America of quality workers who are capable of thinking for themselves.

It may seem like an easy answer to blame the immigrants...but the truth is the blame lies with the politicians who keep pouring or money into social services that allow immigrants and many others to abuse the system which puts the strain on working Americans.

Don't worry about how many immigrants will show up to exploit our system...I'd worry more about how many brilliant people are turned away, when their intent is to embrace our free market and generate jobs for others.

Employing protectist measures in the name of saving jobs will blow up in our face...just read about the Smoot-Hawley act if you'd like an example.

Don't embrace this line of thinking...America has a far greater problem with the entitled, lazy, collectivist thinking people born in this country.

I did an interesting socialogical experiment in college. I asked several hundred foreign born college students against several hundred US born students to explain to me what the American dream was. I'd have to dig up my notes, but foreign born students correctly explained the American dream almost 3X as often as US.

Immigrants have much to offer to this nation, as they always have.

I have been reading the Daily Paul for quite a while. I browsed this awesome forum for at least a year before I even registered and only recently started to comment. With that being said, this is one of the few times I have read a post and almost completely disagreed. I highly respect everyone's opinion and your right to express them but let me put this scenario out there.

I will be celebrating my 1 year wedding anniversary this March 20th. My wife is a green card carrying immigrant. She was born in New Zealand and lived in Australia for 21 years. Long story short we had our share of difficulties. I wanted my wife here with me in the U.S. and we went through the immigration process together LEGALLY. With both of us being students the many fees and long drives to the different immigration offices broke both of us. Do you know what it's like to have someone you love come to this country? Have you ever had to wait on an envelope in the mail that would decide if your loved one could stay or not? These "Legal Immigrants" you speak of are not always here to take your jobs or ruin your life. My wife is not here on a free ride.

I feel certain we share the same views on ILLEGAL immigration. However I'm not sure how you can class my wife for example, as being equally as bad as someone who jumps the border, takes your job and lives tax free the rest of their life. I'm positive there needs to be reform to the immigration system, but I would never support something that would deny happiness to others going through what we did.

-Jason