It is really quite sad, but that deputy obviously did not know the law, may not have ever even heard of the Constitution. It was pretty clear he was just trying to get laid. Hope this guy sues and wins. Could the woman have just politely asked what the guy was up to? She had no probable cause from the appearance of this video. Hope we get to learn the outcome. Which will probably be that this gu spends months dealing with bureaucratic nonsense, it will cost him a butt load of money, and he will be told there is nothing that can be done.
this happened last year.... heres an update..
This property owner lost his property due to health/animal/EPA violations. He had his day in court and lost. He has since run for city council and lost that also.
now heres the reasoning behind this... NOTE MY WORDS
"The man was digging up his yard to install a septic tank. Septic Tanks have to be installed by professionals, need to be permitted and have to be given a final inspection. The man was committing a crime, therefore, the health department was called in. She should have told him WHY she was there, but doesn't have to. Therefore, SHE is in the right and THE MAN WITH THE CAMERA is wrong."
Yes it sucks. But if there is one thing that I have learned, it is this: mistakes of law are not excuses.
Sadly, the dude should have researched his statutes, ordinances, and regulations.
That's what the rule of law is all about.
—
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions." Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
Im not suprised. If you want this changed, the law has to change, and we have to quit bowing to whatever the LEO lobby wants.
The downside is that when it changes, alot more people will get off on serious crimes for 'technicalities'. We have decide how much it'ts worth. When we protect ourselves, we protect everyone, including scumbags.
Personally, I feel more at risk from the thugs in uniforms than those without, but thats just me.
"I don't call the Constitution of the United States a technicality"
Justice William Brennan is a T.V. interview 1986.. When we still HAD a constitution.. and they were just starting to erode it..
Look... when someone is released on a "Technicality"... THE COP THE CREATED THE VIOLATION SHOULD PROBABLY BE FIRED.. Or at leastt reassigned..
And if the Courts would put a STOP to the continual eroding of civil liberties based on..."unique fact patterns"... that turn out not to be unique and seem to then be applied to EVERY FUTURE CASE..
Law Enforcement would QUIT PUSHING THE ENVELOPE HOPING FOR FURTHER EROSION OF RIGHTS!!
Thats the way I see it... Most of these "crooks" can EASILY be caught we GOOD ETHICAL LEGAL POLICE WORK...
To the extent they say..."It helps us do our jobs better"... I say.. if you can't do them with the TOOLS YOU HAVE... Perhaps we should allow another the opportunity to try... it seems to have served us well in the past...
Now we have the Army Police in every big city in every state in the union... and criminals facing life sentences for often NON-voilent crimes... decide to NOT GO DOWN WITHOUT A FIGHT.. and ARM THEMSELVES AS WELL AS THE COPS.. (yeah I know....that was the cops argument for M-16's and army tactics.... SHAMEFUL)
I just did a survey of 4th amendment cases, it started much earlier than in 86. In fact, as soon as the 4th Am get applied to the states through the 14th, the court immediately started poking holes in it. Those holes picked up in the 70s, and the Rehnquist court really just completely destroyed it. In fact Scalia has said the 4th's per se warrant requirement is so broken that we should retreat to a 'reasonableness' standard when determining what will be excluded. Its sad, really.
I agree that the court has allowed for this erosion. Every time they create an exception to burn a 'bad guy', or create a ill reasoned bright line rule to make things easier on the police, they chip away at it a little more.
The problem is that you cant expect the police to quit pushing the envelope, because it takes approximately 20 seconds for any government agency, once created, to start acting in its own best interest rather than that of the individual people, whose rights they are supposed to be protecting. And court, which once stood as a check to the executive and legislative powers at all layers of government, has largely been turned into just a rubber stamp on the ever increasing power of the executive. Im unsure who to blame this on, but I think it is us. We vote for 'law and order' judges, because we have allowed ourselves to be frightened into fearing crime, drugs, and terror, more than the loss of our civil liberties. So the sherrifs and other executives we elect are hardasses with little respect for liberty, and so are the judges they appoint.
Unfortunately, the courts are largely a lost cause, they are bound by bad precedent in most cases. There is still a little wiggle room, but it shrinks every year.
In order to fix this, we have to take it to the people, and elect officials who will respect individual rights. Its the only way left.
And the definition of a "Lawyer" has subtly and yet significantly changed over the years.
Originally, anyone who was well read, understood logic and had gained a knowledge of "the law" by reading it and the initial "case law" that established certain precedents -- could hang out a shingle, and/or later take and pass a "bar exam."
But over the course of time, to become a "lawyer" has meant essentially joining a "union" and to join that union, one typically has to attend and graduate from specific "anointed" universities; and then pass a "bar exam" that focuses much more on trivialities and esoteric points of the now encyclopedic-sized case law. The actual "practice" of law in any locale is now more about knowing the right people and maneuvering through the red-tape thrown up by the local judicial bureaucracy than it is about knowing and applying the underlying PRINCIPLES of the original law.
Personally, I think that the only way to "take it back" is for the people to somehow take back the legal branch from the "lawyers."
Once upon a time judges were chosen because of their integrity and their character -- essentially WISDOM was the primary qualification one looked for. Mature businessmen and farmers could choose to become a "lawyer" somewhat late in life as the need arose. Now, a regular man, no matter how wise, is categorically unable to become a justice -- the legal "union" has effectively grabbed an entire branch of government and made it into a private club, and entry into that private club is so burdensome as to prevent anyone from entering who does not do so as a career choice immediately following their youth.
This means that we do NOT have businessmen, merchants, bankers, farmers, engineers, nor ANYONE who has any "real life" experience who then LATER comes and studies the law. No, instead, we have only youthful "interns" who come to "the law" without any experience in the real world, and are then "indoctrinated" into a special profession, this private club, and forced to look at the rest of the world for the remainder of their lives through its skewed glasses.
If we are to change the courts, we must somehow break the hold that the private "state bars" have upon the profession -- and especially on the judicial positions (there really is no "constitutional" reason for judges to ONLY be lawyers -- this is a minor "regulatory" thing, and one that COULD be overcome by the population at large via Constitutional change.)
Such a change could be one that REQUIRES such positions to be open to nominations and elections from the public at large, and then trust that the public will "vet" the candidates somehow on their knowledge of the ROOTS of the law as more important than the minutiae of precedent. Only then would be begin to see such things as Jury Nullification become widely known and used. Only then would we begin to see the re-establishment of the SPIRIT of the law over and above the "letter" of the minor regulations.
There would be problems along the way, of course; but certainly no greater than the onces we currently experience with the "private club" of relatively "inbred" lawyers and judges that we presently have.
Im sorry, but the legal profession has almost always from its inception been a secretive and clannish profession. All you have to do is attempt to read case law from the early 1900s to know that there was a concerted effort to make the law as much like religion (read: incomprehensible to the average person) as possible.
Its true that in the 1700s and 1800s that you could 'read' the law, and attempt to practice it, but I assure you that in todays system, you really dont want a non professional lawyer.
What has changed the law, is those who have passed the laws, and this by and large, is due to the fact that we as a society have somehow turned our back on our heritage of freedom, independence, individual sovereignty, and self reliance.
In that regard, the modern legal system, with its emphasis on the state is more a reflection of the pathetic state of society at large, than it is on the means by which we train lawyers.
Submitted by brianewart on Mon, 12/10/2007 - 21:52.
I'd rather see a scumbag get off the hook, than see the rights of an ordinary citizen be trampled.
Besides, is a warrant really too much to ask? I mean, what would it take in this case? 30 minutes? They could call a judge, tell him who complained and about what, that they could see dirt and stuff from the road and have it faxed over immediately.
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
—
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
Certaintly they COULD have gotten a warrant; but to bureaucats, such things are a nuisance, and over many years they HAVE LEARNED how to get around that "nuisance."
I guarantee you that after the previous day's encounter she went back to the office and only after reviewing that they were certain that there WERE violations was she instructed by her supervisor to proceed WITHOUT the warrant and to do so ON PURPOSE.
Why? To assert and establish [yet another] slam-dunk "precedent case" that they can and will do so WITHOUT the warrant. They "pick" such fights on purpose (i.e. they make certain that they do NOT push their way onto the property when they LACK probable cause -- because if a number of THOSE were to "bite them back" then they WOULD have to get a warrant every time. So strangely enough many times they will only seek the warrant when they are NOT certain they will find violations, and then only to cover their backsides; being able to then cast the "blame" onto whoever concocted the "evidence" they based their probable cause upon.)
In addition, she probably told her supervisor she was afraid to go back without the warrant, hence the presence of the sheriff's deputy (with his gun handy) probably on the URGENT request of her supervisor.
And since the homeowner WAS in violation of certain health codes, this case (unfortunately) actually "strengthened" their precedent of being able to "ignore" the requirement for a warrant (because, see they were "right").
The real problem here lies with the County Sheriff and the Deputy -- more than likely they KNEW what the jig was on all sides. They had a responsibility to enforce ALL of the laws, including the laws against trespass and searches without warrants.
Unfortunately, most states have little in the way of "statutes" regarding enforcement procedures against "public officials" who violate such "higher" laws. And virtually all of them (including this homeowner, btw) are unfamiliar with (or hold in disdain) the federal law under 18 USC 242 which therefore often goes unenforced, even though IMHO, it should actually be committed to memory by every law enforcement officer, whether federal, state, or local.
In addition, MANY county police have had little training, and most have only a vague "hearsay" familiarity with the laws of the land, and often receive much more "training" in their own "specialty" areas of traffic citations, vehicle safety, alcohol & drug regulations, etc. than they do in the requirements of due process and the Bill of Rights.
Finally, sadly, this homeowner probably did NOT get a really good lawyer (lawyers that graduate at the bottom of their class and who barely squeak by the bar exam are still "lawyers" -- you would just be better off NOT hiring them). Most of the really bad case law in this country has been established as a "precedent" because of poorly prepared defense attorneys, or attorneys who argue the wrong aspect of the law; add in the outright refusal of the local district attorney or US attorney to actually enforce such things as 18 USC 242 in anything but the most egregious cases (i.e. a police officer committing a blatantly obvious "murder" or "rape" while in uniform and which outrages an entire city). Then combine all of that with the "procedural nightmare" of red-tape and "technical" dismissal of "improperly filed" cases that filing charges has become (due in significant part by the "unionization" of the legal profession in the form of the state bars) -- and you are virtually assured of the regular "scoff-law" attitude of local officials and quasi-officials towards such nuisances as "search warrants."
Such is life in our modern world, where REAL integrity is a forgotten anachronism.
and by and large, the rule used to be that a warrantless search PER SE was a 4th amendment violation, except where there were exigent circumstances, and the products of such a search were excluded on the grounds that the judiciary shouldnt soil itself with evidence gained illegally, so as to avoid breeding contempt for the law.
today there is a totally different picture, the court sees things as 'we need to make things easy for the police', and the only reason to exclude evidence gotten illegally is when it will deter the police from breaking the law. The reasoning now (outside the home or curtilage) is about balancing society's and Law Enforcement's need to enforce the law against any 'minor' infringments on peoples reasonable expectation of privacy.
I guarantee you now that as the court considers the 'war on terror' as being even more of a policy concern than the 'war on drugs' that this problem will continue to get worse until we can get the law changed.
These types of things have happened many times before.
I don't mean to belittle the egregious state that they have reached in certain states (the recent taserings, etc) -- but the history of the United States is replete with "cycles" of this type of thing.
Then certain cases become SO egregious that the public becomes "outraged" and the actions become problematic, the backlash against officials becomes significant, and the attitude by and towards law enforcement officers become counterproductive.
So the pendulum swings back towards the other side.
Unfortunately with each such cycle, the state ends up with MORE power and the violations tend to become more frequent (though less violent overall -- yes even when compared to modern paramilitary "SWAT" teams -- many historical cases were so violent that they send a chill down one's spine.) And likewise each time the pendulum swings back, it tends NOT to swing back as far, so in the course of time we become deeper and deeper in the thrall of the bureaucracy.
Its a theory of mine that ALL societies proceed along this path until some very violent upheaval turns the whole tables over. Really the only case in history of a country slowly gaining freedoms is that of England, from Magna Carta, to the supremacy of Parliament, etc -- and even THAT was not without many very violent upheavals.) While we LIKE to think that America is in some sense "unique" (and certainly the "new world" aspect was somewhat unique in recorded history) in many senses it follows a similar pattern to other civilizations, from the Hebrew tribes, to the Greek city states, to the Roman Republic, to other "republics" down through history; that is that as the society "matured" and became ever more prosperous and populous, the volume, and complexity of "precedence" or as we know it "case law" becomes so voluminous and burdensome that the original law and the "spirit" of the law is gradually lost; the civilization then must "die" and another start up in it's place with a new "clean" or at least "partially clean" slate.
Can such an "upheaval" and "slate cleaning" be done peaceably? OR at least with a minimum of violence? There doesn't seem to be much historical precedent, but we can still hope!
One of my chief concerns is that while we *may* be able to (via the Ron Paul campaign if successful) restrain and "take back some ground" from the FEDERAL government, it is really the State and local governments which are the MOST intrusive in our daily lives and daily loss of freedoms. And the Ron Paul "Revolution" will not free us from ANY of that form of tyranny... indeed, it may lay us open to even MORE egregious forms of it in many of the several states, simply because it would REMOVE the federal "primacy" on the macro level.
Consider which is actually more likely to cause you a problem in your own life... George W. Bush reading your email? Or the local bureaucrat applying some "smart growth" zoning regulations preventing you from running a small business at home?
Surely our outrage at the former is a SOLID, IMPORTANT and LONG-TERM thinking outrage at the loss of overall civil rights. But the local loss is actually MORE tyrannical in our daily lives. The former outrages us in a philosophical and political sense but will probably never touch most of us personally (Alex Jones "Endgame" paranoia aside), the latter tightens a noose around our daily living and our ability to maintain our very livelihood (can you raise chickens in your backyard? If you try will it be the FBI or the local bureaucrat that fines and imprisons you? If a depression comes on, surely raising chickens will become MORE important than whether someone reads your emails.)
Ah, but that is all for another day and another thread...
Public choice economic theory pretty much outlines the long term problems inherent in democratic governments (as more time passes, authority centralizes, and more people quit producing and spend their time 'stealing' (rent seeking) as the pot the government controls gets bigger, until eventually the system crashes.
I too hope we as a society manage to hit the reset button peacefully.
Makes me think of a computer system crash. And that lead to the analogy of a "fragmented hard drive" -- which I think much of our legal system (and government at large) so very much resembles.
It's not that hard for an official to get a warrant--especially in this day and age. After all, government works for us, right?
—
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions." Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
Submitted by brianewart on Mon, 12/10/2007 - 20:54.
I'm not sure what the criminal statutes in his state say, but trespass is a tort that he can sue her for regardless of damage to his property. It is a civil infraction. Without damage to his property he will only recover a nominal amount from her.
He owes her no duty of care while she is trespassing on his land. If she were to injure herself by tripping over some of his dirt piles or fall into a hole on his land, she would have no cause of action against him.
If she were to uncover some form of an infraction during this visit, she would not be able to use it in a court of law against him. Meaning that any sanctions resulting from this inspection should be thrown out by a judge. If she tried to use the result of this illegal search to argue probable cause for a warrant at a later time, the landowner would have reason to challenge the validity of that warrant -- and should be successful.
As the trespass is a civil cause of action it is not within the Sheriff's duty to prevent it from happening.
He should look for a pro-bono lawyer/firm to help him with his legal action against the woman and the agency that she works for as well.
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
—
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
Submitted by Pizza God on Mon, 12/10/2007 - 20:53.
I spend a good afternoon last month trying to find out anything about this case on the internet.
The best I can tell is it is from Nov of 2006 or 2005. The oldest post I found was from March of this year. None of the places I found this video had any more information other than there is a lady with that name and a deputy with that name still employed in that county.
He was obviously digging a septic tank or leach field. That doesn't make it right. The cop should have followed the law and gotten a warrant. But the guy is gonna get a big fine. It's the property rights (or lack of) that are the problem.
Whatever that lady was there for, she sure didn't offer probable cause.
Off the tip of my tounge, I'd say Ka-Ching.
—
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions." Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
Intentional tort, trespass to land. No conversion, therefore no damages.
However, if a jury were to determine this to be a blatant abuse of power, and that this kind of abuse should be prevented in the future...
—
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions." Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
Submitted by Soccrmastr on Mon, 12/10/2007 - 20:42.
EVERYONE NEEDS TO SEE THIS. This is why we need guns and she needs to be sued/fired and go to jail.
-- http://www.ronpaulradio.com/
24/7 Ron Paul Coverage and Discussion
Submitted by MrOblivious on Mon, 12/10/2007 - 20:03.
I can't believe it. The police are actually infringing on the rights of the citizens. Don't we have any rights left? Those people better get their asses sued. Hell, that police officer should go to jail.
DIGG THE STORY HERE...
I'm surprised it hasn't been Dugg yet.
Go: http://digg.com/political_opinion/Remember_the_4th_Amendment
Many Law Enforcement Officers DO NOT KNOW the LAW!
It is really quite sad, but that deputy obviously did not know the law, may not have ever even heard of the Constitution. It was pretty clear he was just trying to get laid. Hope this guy sues and wins. Could the woman have just politely asked what the guy was up to? She had no probable cause from the appearance of this video. Hope we get to learn the outcome. Which will probably be that this gu spends months dealing with bureaucratic nonsense, it will cost him a butt load of money, and he will be told there is nothing that can be done.
wait tell you hear this
this happened last year.... heres an update..
This property owner lost his property due to health/animal/EPA violations. He had his day in court and lost. He has since run for city council and lost that also.
now heres the reasoning behind this... NOTE MY WORDS
"The man was digging up his yard to install a septic tank. Septic Tanks have to be installed by professionals, need to be permitted and have to be given a final inspection. The man was committing a crime, therefore, the health department was called in. She should have told him WHY she was there, but doesn't have to. Therefore, SHE is in the right and THE MAN WITH THE CAMERA is wrong."
this is absolutely absurd!!
I knew there were missing facts.
NOT LEGAL ADVICE
Yes it sucks. But if there is one thing that I have learned, it is this: mistakes of law are not excuses.
Sadly, the dude should have researched his statutes, ordinances, and regulations.
That's what the rule of law is all about.
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions." Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
Tyranny of regulations
You need to ask yourself, are these laws constitutional?
_________________________________
Freedom - Peace - Prosperity
What law overrides the Constitution?
Whatever it is, it shouldn't be law.
Im not suprised. If you
Im not suprised. If you want this changed, the law has to change, and we have to quit bowing to whatever the LEO lobby wants.
The downside is that when it changes, alot more people will get off on serious crimes for 'technicalities'. We have decide how much it'ts worth. When we protect ourselves, we protect everyone, including scumbags.
Personally, I feel more at risk from the thugs in uniforms than those without, but thats just me.
Yeah...but
"I don't call the Constitution of the United States a technicality"
Justice William Brennan is a T.V. interview 1986.. When we still HAD a constitution.. and they were just starting to erode it..
Look... when someone is released on a "Technicality"... THE COP THE CREATED THE VIOLATION SHOULD PROBABLY BE FIRED.. Or at leastt reassigned..
And if the Courts would put a STOP to the continual eroding of civil liberties based on..."unique fact patterns"... that turn out not to be unique and seem to then be applied to EVERY FUTURE CASE..
Law Enforcement would QUIT PUSHING THE ENVELOPE HOPING FOR FURTHER EROSION OF RIGHTS!!
Thats the way I see it... Most of these "crooks" can EASILY be caught we GOOD ETHICAL LEGAL POLICE WORK...
To the extent they say..."It helps us do our jobs better"... I say.. if you can't do them with the TOOLS YOU HAVE... Perhaps we should allow another the opportunity to try... it seems to have served us well in the past...
Now we have the Army Police in every big city in every state in the union... and criminals facing life sentences for often NON-voilent crimes... decide to NOT GO DOWN WITHOUT A FIGHT.. and ARM THEMSELVES AS WELL AS THE COPS.. (yeah I know....that was the cops argument for M-16's and army tactics.... SHAMEFUL)
Peace
I just did a survey of 4th
I just did a survey of 4th amendment cases, it started much earlier than in 86. In fact, as soon as the 4th Am get applied to the states through the 14th, the court immediately started poking holes in it. Those holes picked up in the 70s, and the Rehnquist court really just completely destroyed it. In fact Scalia has said the 4th's per se warrant requirement is so broken that we should retreat to a 'reasonableness' standard when determining what will be excluded. Its sad, really.
I agree that the court has allowed for this erosion. Every time they create an exception to burn a 'bad guy', or create a ill reasoned bright line rule to make things easier on the police, they chip away at it a little more.
The problem is that you cant expect the police to quit pushing the envelope, because it takes approximately 20 seconds for any government agency, once created, to start acting in its own best interest rather than that of the individual people, whose rights they are supposed to be protecting. And court, which once stood as a check to the executive and legislative powers at all layers of government, has largely been turned into just a rubber stamp on the ever increasing power of the executive. Im unsure who to blame this on, but I think it is us. We vote for 'law and order' judges, because we have allowed ourselves to be frightened into fearing crime, drugs, and terror, more than the loss of our civil liberties. So the sherrifs and other executives we elect are hardasses with little respect for liberty, and so are the judges they appoint.
Unfortunately, the courts are largely a lost cause, they are bound by bad precedent in most cases. There is still a little wiggle room, but it shrinks every year.
In order to fix this, we have to take it to the people, and elect officials who will respect individual rights. Its the only way left.
Courts are a "Lost Cause" because they are all "lawyers"
And the definition of a "Lawyer" has subtly and yet significantly changed over the years.
Originally, anyone who was well read, understood logic and had gained a knowledge of "the law" by reading it and the initial "case law" that established certain precedents -- could hang out a shingle, and/or later take and pass a "bar exam."
But over the course of time, to become a "lawyer" has meant essentially joining a "union" and to join that union, one typically has to attend and graduate from specific "anointed" universities; and then pass a "bar exam" that focuses much more on trivialities and esoteric points of the now encyclopedic-sized case law. The actual "practice" of law in any locale is now more about knowing the right people and maneuvering through the red-tape thrown up by the local judicial bureaucracy than it is about knowing and applying the underlying PRINCIPLES of the original law.
Personally, I think that the only way to "take it back" is for the people to somehow take back the legal branch from the "lawyers."
Once upon a time judges were chosen because of their integrity and their character -- essentially WISDOM was the primary qualification one looked for. Mature businessmen and farmers could choose to become a "lawyer" somewhat late in life as the need arose. Now, a regular man, no matter how wise, is categorically unable to become a justice -- the legal "union" has effectively grabbed an entire branch of government and made it into a private club, and entry into that private club is so burdensome as to prevent anyone from entering who does not do so as a career choice immediately following their youth.
This means that we do NOT have businessmen, merchants, bankers, farmers, engineers, nor ANYONE who has any "real life" experience who then LATER comes and studies the law. No, instead, we have only youthful "interns" who come to "the law" without any experience in the real world, and are then "indoctrinated" into a special profession, this private club, and forced to look at the rest of the world for the remainder of their lives through its skewed glasses.
If we are to change the courts, we must somehow break the hold that the private "state bars" have upon the profession -- and especially on the judicial positions (there really is no "constitutional" reason for judges to ONLY be lawyers -- this is a minor "regulatory" thing, and one that COULD be overcome by the population at large via Constitutional change.)
Such a change could be one that REQUIRES such positions to be open to nominations and elections from the public at large, and then trust that the public will "vet" the candidates somehow on their knowledge of the ROOTS of the law as more important than the minutiae of precedent. Only then would be begin to see such things as Jury Nullification become widely known and used. Only then would we begin to see the re-establishment of the SPIRIT of the law over and above the "letter" of the minor regulations.
There would be problems along the way, of course; but certainly no greater than the onces we currently experience with the "private club" of relatively "inbred" lawyers and judges that we presently have.
its sad, we agreed on so much up til now
Im sorry, but the legal profession has almost always from its inception been a secretive and clannish profession. All you have to do is attempt to read case law from the early 1900s to know that there was a concerted effort to make the law as much like religion (read: incomprehensible to the average person) as possible.
Its true that in the 1700s and 1800s that you could 'read' the law, and attempt to practice it, but I assure you that in todays system, you really dont want a non professional lawyer.
What has changed the law, is those who have passed the laws, and this by and large, is due to the fact that we as a society have somehow turned our back on our heritage of freedom, independence, individual sovereignty, and self reliance.
In that regard, the modern legal system, with its emphasis on the state is more a reflection of the pathetic state of society at large, than it is on the means by which we train lawyers.
I'd rather see a scumbag get
I'd rather see a scumbag get off the hook, than see the rights of an ordinary citizen be trampled.
Besides, is a warrant really too much to ask? I mean, what would it take in this case? 30 minutes? They could call a judge, tell him who complained and about what, that they could see dirt and stuff from the road and have it faxed over immediately.
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
She proceeded without getting the warrant ON PURPOSE
Certaintly they COULD have gotten a warrant; but to bureaucats, such things are a nuisance, and over many years they HAVE LEARNED how to get around that "nuisance."
I guarantee you that after the previous day's encounter she went back to the office and only after reviewing that they were certain that there WERE violations was she instructed by her supervisor to proceed WITHOUT the warrant and to do so ON PURPOSE.
Why? To assert and establish [yet another] slam-dunk "precedent case" that they can and will do so WITHOUT the warrant. They "pick" such fights on purpose (i.e. they make certain that they do NOT push their way onto the property when they LACK probable cause -- because if a number of THOSE were to "bite them back" then they WOULD have to get a warrant every time. So strangely enough many times they will only seek the warrant when they are NOT certain they will find violations, and then only to cover their backsides; being able to then cast the "blame" onto whoever concocted the "evidence" they based their probable cause upon.)
In addition, she probably told her supervisor she was afraid to go back without the warrant, hence the presence of the sheriff's deputy (with his gun handy) probably on the URGENT request of her supervisor.
And since the homeowner WAS in violation of certain health codes, this case (unfortunately) actually "strengthened" their precedent of being able to "ignore" the requirement for a warrant (because, see they were "right").
The real problem here lies with the County Sheriff and the Deputy -- more than likely they KNEW what the jig was on all sides. They had a responsibility to enforce ALL of the laws, including the laws against trespass and searches without warrants.
Unfortunately, most states have little in the way of "statutes" regarding enforcement procedures against "public officials" who violate such "higher" laws. And virtually all of them (including this homeowner, btw) are unfamiliar with (or hold in disdain) the federal law under 18 USC 242 which therefore often goes unenforced, even though IMHO, it should actually be committed to memory by every law enforcement officer, whether federal, state, or local.
In addition, MANY county police have had little training, and most have only a vague "hearsay" familiarity with the laws of the land, and often receive much more "training" in their own "specialty" areas of traffic citations, vehicle safety, alcohol & drug regulations, etc. than they do in the requirements of due process and the Bill of Rights.
Finally, sadly, this homeowner probably did NOT get a really good lawyer (lawyers that graduate at the bottom of their class and who barely squeak by the bar exam are still "lawyers" -- you would just be better off NOT hiring them). Most of the really bad case law in this country has been established as a "precedent" because of poorly prepared defense attorneys, or attorneys who argue the wrong aspect of the law; add in the outright refusal of the local district attorney or US attorney to actually enforce such things as 18 USC 242 in anything but the most egregious cases (i.e. a police officer committing a blatantly obvious "murder" or "rape" while in uniform and which outrages an entire city). Then combine all of that with the "procedural nightmare" of red-tape and "technical" dismissal of "improperly filed" cases that filing charges has become (due in significant part by the "unionization" of the legal profession in the form of the state bars) -- and you are virtually assured of the regular "scoff-law" attitude of local officials and quasi-officials towards such nuisances as "search warrants."
Such is life in our modern world, where REAL integrity is a forgotten anachronism.
I totally agree
and by and large, the rule used to be that a warrantless search PER SE was a 4th amendment violation, except where there were exigent circumstances, and the products of such a search were excluded on the grounds that the judiciary shouldnt soil itself with evidence gained illegally, so as to avoid breeding contempt for the law.
today there is a totally different picture, the court sees things as 'we need to make things easy for the police', and the only reason to exclude evidence gotten illegally is when it will deter the police from breaking the law. The reasoning now (outside the home or curtilage) is about balancing society's and Law Enforcement's need to enforce the law against any 'minor' infringments on peoples reasonable expectation of privacy.
I guarantee you now that as the court considers the 'war on terror' as being even more of a policy concern than the 'war on drugs' that this problem will continue to get worse until we can get the law changed.
It's a pendulum that swings back AND forth...
These types of things have happened many times before.
I don't mean to belittle the egregious state that they have reached in certain states (the recent taserings, etc) -- but the history of the United States is replete with "cycles" of this type of thing.
Then certain cases become SO egregious that the public becomes "outraged" and the actions become problematic, the backlash against officials becomes significant, and the attitude by and towards law enforcement officers become counterproductive.
So the pendulum swings back towards the other side.
Unfortunately with each such cycle, the state ends up with MORE power and the violations tend to become more frequent (though less violent overall -- yes even when compared to modern paramilitary "SWAT" teams -- many historical cases were so violent that they send a chill down one's spine.) And likewise each time the pendulum swings back, it tends NOT to swing back as far, so in the course of time we become deeper and deeper in the thrall of the bureaucracy.
Its a theory of mine that ALL societies proceed along this path until some very violent upheaval turns the whole tables over. Really the only case in history of a country slowly gaining freedoms is that of England, from Magna Carta, to the supremacy of Parliament, etc -- and even THAT was not without many very violent upheavals.) While we LIKE to think that America is in some sense "unique" (and certainly the "new world" aspect was somewhat unique in recorded history) in many senses it follows a similar pattern to other civilizations, from the Hebrew tribes, to the Greek city states, to the Roman Republic, to other "republics" down through history; that is that as the society "matured" and became ever more prosperous and populous, the volume, and complexity of "precedence" or as we know it "case law" becomes so voluminous and burdensome that the original law and the "spirit" of the law is gradually lost; the civilization then must "die" and another start up in it's place with a new "clean" or at least "partially clean" slate.
Can such an "upheaval" and "slate cleaning" be done peaceably? OR at least with a minimum of violence? There doesn't seem to be much historical precedent, but we can still hope!
One of my chief concerns is that while we *may* be able to (via the Ron Paul campaign if successful) restrain and "take back some ground" from the FEDERAL government, it is really the State and local governments which are the MOST intrusive in our daily lives and daily loss of freedoms. And the Ron Paul "Revolution" will not free us from ANY of that form of tyranny... indeed, it may lay us open to even MORE egregious forms of it in many of the several states, simply because it would REMOVE the federal "primacy" on the macro level.
Consider which is actually more likely to cause you a problem in your own life... George W. Bush reading your email? Or the local bureaucrat applying some "smart growth" zoning regulations preventing you from running a small business at home?
Surely our outrage at the former is a SOLID, IMPORTANT and LONG-TERM thinking outrage at the loss of overall civil rights. But the local loss is actually MORE tyrannical in our daily lives. The former outrages us in a philosophical and political sense but will probably never touch most of us personally (Alex Jones "Endgame" paranoia aside), the latter tightens a noose around our daily living and our ability to maintain our very livelihood (can you raise chickens in your backyard? If you try will it be the FBI or the local bureaucrat that fines and imprisons you? If a depression comes on, surely raising chickens will become MORE important than whether someone reads your emails.)
Ah, but that is all for another day and another thread...
Your general sense is correct
Public choice economic theory pretty much outlines the long term problems inherent in democratic governments (as more time passes, authority centralizes, and more people quit producing and spend their time 'stealing' (rent seeking) as the pot the government controls gets bigger, until eventually the system crashes.
I too hope we as a society manage to hit the reset button peacefully.
System Crash...
Interesting choice of phrase.
Makes me think of a computer system crash. And that lead to the analogy of a "fragmented hard drive" -- which I think much of our legal system (and government at large) so very much resembles.
We need to defragment the whole works.
I agree.
It's not that hard for an official to get a warrant--especially in this day and age. After all, government works for us, right?
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions." Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
I still think that she
I still think that she should have to get a warrant. Get Judge Napolitano on this one. He LOVES warrants.
(and so do I -- warrants rock)
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
I'm not sure what the
I'm not sure what the criminal statutes in his state say, but trespass is a tort that he can sue her for regardless of damage to his property. It is a civil infraction. Without damage to his property he will only recover a nominal amount from her.
He owes her no duty of care while she is trespassing on his land. If she were to injure herself by tripping over some of his dirt piles or fall into a hole on his land, she would have no cause of action against him.
If she were to uncover some form of an infraction during this visit, she would not be able to use it in a court of law against him. Meaning that any sanctions resulting from this inspection should be thrown out by a judge. If she tried to use the result of this illegal search to argue probable cause for a warrant at a later time, the landowner would have reason to challenge the validity of that warrant -- and should be successful.
As the trespass is a civil cause of action it is not within the Sheriff's duty to prevent it from happening.
He should look for a pro-bono lawyer/firm to help him with his legal action against the woman and the agency that she works for as well.
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
update??
I spend a good afternoon last month trying to find out anything about this case on the internet.
The best I can tell is it is from Nov of 2006 or 2005. The oldest post I found was from March of this year. None of the places I found this video had any more information other than there is a lady with that name and a deputy with that name still employed in that county.
It's nearly certain she could have gotten a warrant
He was obviously digging a septic tank or leach field. That doesn't make it right. The cop should have followed the law and gotten a warrant. But the guy is gonna get a big fine. It's the property rights (or lack of) that are the problem.
A few missing facts...
Whatever that lady was there for, she sure didn't offer probable cause.
Off the tip of my tounge, I'd say Ka-Ching.
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions." Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
Nope. She didn't cause any
Nope. She didn't cause any property damage.
He'll get a nominal amount for the trespass, and any sanctions she tries to levy against him should be thrown out because she didn't have a warrant.
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
Punitive Damages.
Intentional tort, trespass to land. No conversion, therefore no damages.
However, if a jury were to determine this to be a blatant abuse of power, and that this kind of abuse should be prevented in the future...
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions." Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
The case for punitive
The case for punitive damages is weak here, although I agree that he should make that argument, I don't think it will hold water.
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
----
Registered Republican
Federalist Society Member
REAL Conservative for Ron Paul
omg
EVERYONE NEEDS TO SEE THIS. This is why we need guns and she needs to be sued/fired and go to jail.
--
http://www.ronpaulradio.com/
24/7 Ron Paul Coverage and Discussion
--
http://www.ronpaulradio.com/
24/7 Ron Paul Coverage and Discussion
That cop should have done
That cop should have done his job.
There's somethin' happenin' here...
Power To The People?
Unreal
It's blood boiling.
_________________________________
Freedom - Peace - Prosperity
That is bull****
I can't believe it. The police are actually infringing on the rights of the citizens. Don't we have any rights left? Those people better get their asses sued. Hell, that police officer should go to jail.