Can you contractually give up your Rights? (freedom of speech etc..)
Submitted by TargeT on Fri, 03/05/2010 - 11:32
is the fact that its unconstitutional irrelevant; can you contract away your rights legally?
it is my understanding that anything that is unconstitutional is not legal at its inception (never was legal)
I ask this question because I am doing certain things that are perhaps in a gray area or defiantly not allowed as a member of the military. (all of which have to do with freedom of speech)





















Please please please, stop!
Please please please, stop! Just stop and listen up.
YOU HAVE BEEN MISLED.
You do not get any rights with the constitution, you are BORN with your rights. No piece of paper can take those away, ever!
The constitution merely PROTECTS your god/nature given rights. The only way you can surrender these rights is if you voluntarily decide to stop exercising them.
Please watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t26ENNxHiPg
p.s.: I know I didn't answer your question but I just wanted to correct your thinking about rights, because you couldn't be more wrong if you think a piece of paper gives you your rights.
I would say No.
They're not really yours to give up. They just exist. You can agree not to exercise them, you can be forced not to exercise them, and you can face consequences for exercising them, but you still have them. Legally, you can agree to accept the force and punishment if you choose to exercise you rights but you can't really give them up.
Explore Orthodox Christianity
Giving up rights
The Social Security system would tell you that a spouse can't give up their rights to spousal shares of SS. Case in point, my ex agreed to settle our financials by stating she would not claim against my social security. The courts approved that, but the Social Sec. administration will most likely not honor that relinquishment decree. I think she pulled a fast one, but I hope to let the kids know that I want that to go to them if she ever claims anything. A court order may be necessary again!!
Newman!!
Holy dust-covered,
Holy dust-covered, cobweb-infested threads, Batman!
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just because I dont like what
just because I dont like what I agreed to do does not mean I can back out on it.
I see that now and will act accordingly (see post below).
I WILL SAY that you cannot (should not?) be FORCED to give up your rights, but that is not what contract law is based on, its based on agreements.
“One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.” Plato
I'm going to go with the
I'm going to go with the Common law aproach, I agreed to do something so I must follow through
(based on http://www.dailypaul.com/node/128259 )
I think I've found a new way of thinking, its very uplifting.
“One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.” Plato
John Stuart Mill
addressed this issue in his essay on liberty. He said no, you cannot voluntary relinquish your rights, because the only justification for doing so would be your right to do so which you would then relinquish. Of course he worded it much better than me.
However, most private contracts are not void for the said argument. For example, when you get a marriage license you are admitting incompetence, and asking the state to look after whatever children come from the marriage. But this is not you giving up any inherent rights. Social security is a voluntary contract, along with property tax, etc, so I'm not sure the question you are asking is practically relevant because it does not apply to most of the things that volunteer for today.
This is a somewhat murky
This is a somewhat murky subject. John Locke basically said that you can't give up certain rights (the right to life) because you don't completely own your life (God has some sovereignty over you that can't be violated).
But in modern jurisprudence, the doctrine of "unconstitutional conditions" has some legal merit, though it isn't an absolute. You are more likely to be protected from government offers to give up your rights than corporations, but it isn't a hard and fast rule.
http://www.constitution.org/cmt/right-privilege.htm
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article01/41...
Don't forget about the Navy!
It is the only Branch of the service guaranteed by the Constitution.
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Militia
This is an interesting question.
First, let's go over something. The founding fathers were against "Standing Armies". Obviously defense of a nation is necessary, so what is a standing army?
"a permanent army of paid soldiers maintained by a nation in times of both peace and war"
But how shall a country defend itself without a standing army?
A militia, in contrary to a military, consists of independent citizens who are not paid nor party of the state. It will only activate in times of an attack or a national emergency.
Most soldiers in the revolutionary war were militias, "minutemen" they were called.
My favorite current example of a militia is a Swiss Militia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_army
"The Swiss Armed Forces perform the roles of Switzerland's militia and regular army. Under the country's militia system, professional soldiers constitute only about 5 percent of military personnel; the rest are conscript citizens 20 to 34 (in some cases up to 50) years old. Because of a long history of neutrality, the army does not take part in armed conflicts in other countries, but is part of several peacekeeping missions around the world.
The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their own personal equipment, including all personal weapons, at home. Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily."
Here, is said the following
http://www.swissworld.org/en/politics/general_information/th...
"Switzerland has a firmly anchored tradition of service to the community, under which citizens take on public office which they perform alongside their normal jobs. This is referred to by the Swiss as the militia system. Its best known manifestation is the army, which is largely non-professional, even as far as most of its officers are concerned.
The Swiss regard their politicians as part of the same militia system. Members of the federal parliament do not give up their former jobs when they take their seats. "
So first, the militia men are not controlled by the federal government. They are citizens with regular lives and jobs who live at home, and who keep their equipment at home and voluntarily organize solely for the purpose of defense of their country. Even the generals have regular lives, meeting only part time so the cooperation is maintained. Even their politicians are considered part of this system.
On the other hand, we do have universal conscription, which would seem to be anti-liberty. I will argue it is not, and that both universal service, and the militia/politician system tell us reflect profound philosophical truths regarding freedom. First, a quote
"Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state. "
In John Locke's system, minarchism, we organize into a state for the purpose of giving it a monopoly on force and the application of justice, because we are bad judges in our own case, and the state is to be neutral. The state is to only fight other states for self defense. It is to only jail/fine those who have committed force against others.
But look where every citizen is a soldier, and politicians are normal citizens first, politicians second. What if we were to do the same thing with police? Judges? Bureaucrats?
Militia, Judges, Police, Politicians.
Then, none of them are "professional", none of them a permanent tool of the state. "The government", then literally, is not separate from the people. Thus, most forms of tyranny, are impossible.
In a way, true anarchy is achieved. There is no state distinctly separate from the people.
While universal conscription may seem to be un-free, it can also be seen as a duty that every private citizen be capable of "force" so that the "government" has no monopoly on it, every citizen being a soldier.
It's no coincidence Switzerland has a history of neutrality.
By the way, because everyone is a soldier, they can summon the second largest army per capita in the world (after the Israeli militia)
Don't mess with them.
Military services is slavery to the state, but except in the case of the draft, one where your rights are given up voluntarily through contract.
I like the Swiss system a
I like the Swiss system a lot, they also have the benifit of some of the lowest crime rates in the world.
“One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.” Plato
As a military personell
you signed over to be under the jurisdiction of the U.C.M.J. Uniform code of military justice .you are now under their rules..As you swore an oath to that system, knowingly or unknowingly ? Whether this signs away from justice under the Constitution I do not know ..Ask you judge advocate ..
In the Navy
In the Navy they told us that the Constitution still applied. For example, we could not be ordered to sign something because that would invalidate the signature. We could request a jury trial. As long as we didn't violate security, we could say whatever we wanted to the media, though there would be other consequences for such actions.
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In the Navy?
You will find that the Navy is the only Branch of the Military service that is Guaranteed by the Constitution of the U.S other than a well formed Militia on land made up of the Citizens.All the others are unconstitutional.
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So far as contracts are concerned...
you can get out of a contract by using the following defenses:
duress (the other guy was holding a gun to your head)
economic duress (the other guy was holding money to your head)
fraud (the other guy didn't give you all the facts, or lied to you)
undue influence (The other guy is your father)
mistake (you made a mistake regarding a material part of the contract -- but only if the other guy knew about your mistake and deliberately didn't correct it. This defense is not available in all states)
unconscionability (the contract is so one-sided as to "shock the conscience of the court." )
Impossibility of performance (It just can't be done)
Each of these defenses to a contract may make the contract either void or voidable.
From:
http://www.publishlawyer.com/contract.htm
Bottom line you must rely onthe judicial branch to protect you, so you know what that means.
Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, and set those BRUSH FIRES everywhere you go and in all you do!
This answer was more along
This answer was more along the lines of my question, for some reason late at night when i posted this I had the idea that there was a conflict between the constitution's protection and contractual obligation.
obviously we can contract our selfs into any situation we choose, this is a good thing (as long as your paying attention).
I'll just have to "skirt the line" until I'm free of any contractual limitations.
“One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.” Plato
Your question is not
Your question is not clear.
First of all, to whom would you give your Rights to? Who would be in a position to obtain those Rights?
If you are asking about your Rights as a member of the US military, you need to realize that as a service member, you are under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). You do not enjoy the same Rights as a civilian who is under civil law.
From a practical standpoint, it should be obvious that a military organization can not be run in a democratic method. Service members can't vote on what their missions are, or how they will be accomplished. And Freedom of Speech, vital to free people in a civilian capacity, would break down morale in a military force.
Military service has many benefit, but also requires some sacrifices.
Most Assuredly We Can Voluntarily Enslave Ourselves
In fact the Constitution prevents Congress from interfering in contracts freely made.
Americans are continually contracting away rights to private entities. Furthermore, Americans are often ignorant enough to contract away their constitutional rights in exchange for commercial benefits offered by the federal government and its creations. The supreme court has ruled that governments can not convert rights into privileges, however the court did not forbid Congress from formulating conditions on the exercise of rights with whom it contracts in commerce. Just as a private employer may limit your expression of speech and require particular dress, including sanctions agreed to in the employment contract, so to may Congress limit the expression of rights of its creations.
If an American accepts government licensure, or participates in government franchises, that American must accept that the contract, explicit or implicit, in the commercial action they have engaged may include the agreement to waive certain natural rights. Once an American leaves the protection of the republic and engages in commerce with the federal government, acting in its commercial capacity, or any of its commercial states, he consents to a having his domicile moved to the District of Columbia where Congress exercises plenary power. Furthermore, Americans are served notice that the rules of the District are comprised of the Code of Federal Regulations (including those sections which are not available to the public).
Here are a couple of links to start educating yourself and your loved ones.
Government Instituted Slavery Using Franchises
Why Domicile Requires Your Consent
republic
Individual rights to Life, Liberty, & Property are --Inalienable
Yes... the word is "Inalienable"
To be inalienable MEANS ... you cannot alienate-separate-yourself from them, without ceasing to be what you are: A Man. Hence they are A PART of YOU, your human being, and its indivisible, inalienable, and make you a HUMAN.
Like Brains & Lungs & a Body, together they make you, you. With out a Brain & Lungs & Body, --Life & Liberty & Property,--- you cease to be.
Slavery is thus anathema to Human Rights. The two cannot coexist.
To see a 'voluntary slave', is to see two criminals.
To see an indentured servant, is to see a situation of extreme poverty---poverty of the mind as well as the pocket. Military "service" falls into this category. So do marriages without love; it matters not if it was arranged marriage, or freely chosen, or one of hunger, or one of simple convenience.
In peace & liberty,
Treg
you can easily make a deal
you can easily make a deal (aka contract) such as "i promise to never exercise my right to bear arms, in return you give me $40". does that mean you will never be able to grab a gun? no, but if you do then the person who you made the deal with will have cause to sue you for breach of contract. so in a sense there is no way for you to lose your rights (short of committing a crime and becoming incarcerated or renouncing your citizenship). but you can enter into into contracts where you voluntarily agree that you won't exercise your rights.
that being said you have a contract in the military which you agree to certain restrictions. but you also have an oath to uphold the constitution. you have to weigh the consequences of keeping/breaking those promises.
Yes -and- No
Yes in a Capitalist / Corporatist Society
---Because there are force-agents to make you adhere to contracts
---Owing to the non-voluntary nature of these societies
No in a Free-Market-Society
---Voluntarism cannot be over-turned
---No Mandatory Courts
---No Authority to over-turn Voluntarism
---Contracts can be abandoned in a Free-Society as freely as they are entered if it is truly Voluntary
No in my Consumer-Minarchist Transitionary Model
---Zero Rights for Owners and Zero Rights for Workers
----->Given that, who would hold you to a contract other than workers or owners?
The concept of "owner" and "worker" are defiined by rights/laws/taxation.
There are no Force-Agents in a Free-Society
This is why Anarcho-Capitalism can never work -- logically. You cannot be a Propertarian-Anarchist.
The only really "anarchist" is a Consumer-Individualist and we can't get into that without first transitioning through Consumer-Minarchism.
In a free or voluntary society how do you get me to appear in "your" court of choice (since they are all private)? You can't is the answer. If you hire men to take my possessions I'd hire men to protect them.
Voluntarism means we both must agree to the court mediator and just so you know -- I'd never agree to any court you chose.
Possessions are to be protected by "self-defense" which is a "market" and all free-market "markets" must not have any gov't monopolies or coercions (regulations, licensure, or authority) -- they must have zero barriers to entry.
Therefore there can be no force-agents or mandatory courts.
So, there cannot be an abdication of self-rule (a transference of self-defense).
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
while I agree that our
while I agree that our republic has been corrupted, I cannot see how a completely free society would be better (the way you describe it) as I do not have much faith in the average citizen to not, at least in some cases, to gather a force and use them against weaker citizens for personal gain with apparently no recourse for the victimized persons.
This is why I'm a constitutionality, I think that we need a republic and law / agreements that are reasonably enforceable.
“One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.” Plato
Two Things TargeT
#1 Rights and Laws give a lot of power to the politicians who get them passed -- Therefore a few laws and/or amendments or just ignoring "the constitution" pays out more lobbying dollars to the politician then the RP "honorable" approach. Since, you do not trust people, why then would you trust politicians to Keep their Oath (or a citizenry that asks them to break it)?
#2 The Free-Society that I'm talking about would require a Transition through RP's Minarchism and Octo's Consumer-Minarchism -- probably take 2-3 generations (40-60 years).
The transition towards ever greater levels of self-reliance, self-health, and self-defense will have a dynamic cultural effect.
I could argue quite effectively how even a movement towards Liberty would bring about peace.
Eliminating Drug Laws would lower prison population by as much as 90%(if we include robbery seeking drug dollars, drug distribution, drug usage, drug gang, drug fueled violence).
If we boosted purchasing power (by bringing troops home) and allowed for insurance competition -- the gains without any other tax deductions would be enormous.
Liberty (control of ones own worth) and the Elimination of Drug Laws would give you a near lawful society compared to what we have today.
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
In support of your notion...
this article was linked to at survivalblog.com.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gf_NuUKux5...
If drug prohibition was repealed what advantage would these gangs have over the personal backyard grower? Removing the protectionist policies of many government legislation would certainly "free" up much of society - it would be like giving our society a good dose of fiber; it would push all of the sh!t out of the system and allow for normal excretory functions.
Assert Your Authority
It's in the interest of large scale growers that drugs remain
illegal or quasi-legal.
A free-market drug trade benefits no one on the Belt-Way.
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
In the end Liberty is about...
consent. It is individual choice. "Lawful" and "legal" are merely tools to leverage consent within the greater society. "Natural Law" is applied to the individual and is the basis of freedom, men's rules for themselves as a society cannot abrogate individual sovereignty, nor individual responsibility. But, the individual can choose not to activate or defend their own rights such that they become servant to another, and in discord with their own potential sovereignty. Yet, one individual standing for their rights in a society that defiles those very individual rights may have only personal satisfaction as the result of their fight, and they may be crushed under the obtuse hand of the general society, but at that point one must ask the question, "Who am I living for? Myself, or to appease the mindset of others?"
Assert Your Authority
I agree that consent is the
I agree that consent is the key, I was just hopping that there were legal recourses that prevented people form unknowingly consenting to give up their rights, or perhaps from being able to give up their rights.
I personally don't see the advantage to giving up your rights to free speech contractually, ever, even considering national secrets, there shouldn't be force behind an agreement not to tell secrets, it should just be an agreement, because in the end if the person isn't or is going to keep secrets it will be them deciding to regardless of the laws that exist.
if that makes any sense.
“One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.” Plato
I can clearly see your points...
and I think that we are deep in the woods to believe that martial/military/admiralty law would provide "escape" clauses for relequishing your rights for contractual privledges. That's why we ned to educate quickly and constantly. Once you've stepped in the mud you have to deal with it, but if you're aware of it's existence then you can choose if you wish to step in it or not; and the ramifications of each action.
I certainly don't have an answer on how to fix the system, but I do have an analogy. When a metal worker wishes to fix a bent or twisted piece of steel he knows that annealing that metal first will make it more workable, more malleable, less resistant to change. If we are to change the current system, we need to get some heat into it, and then let it cool naturally. If we do this we can make a sutable substance to transform, but the hard work is to get enough heat, for long enough to break down the stresses in the system that are a disservice to the people.
Assert Your Authority
well unfortunately I'm not at
well unfortunately I'm not at a stage in my life that I can throw caution to the wind and challenge everything with no fear of retribution; until that time happens I'll do as much as I'm comfortable with (unfortunately).
“One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.” Plato
Well, it takes an enormous effort...
by a few, or it could well take a lesser effort of more. Either way, the turtle crosses the finish line. Water breaks stone too, and many times more beautifully than the hammer.
We are all making a difference.
Assert Your Authority