Ron Paul: ‘No’ on Census Support: 409-1

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Ron Paul: ‘No’ on Census Support
By Jean Spencer

Rep. Ron Paul was the single “no” vote on a resolution last week to support participation in the 2010 Census.

In a weekly column on his Web site, the Texas Republican said the census “has grown far beyond what the framers of our Constitution intended.”

He said the government has no business collecting personal information such as ethnicity, income and religious affiliation and categorizing people into groups. “From a constitutional perspective, of course, the answer to each of these questions is: ‘None of your business,’” Paul said. “But the bigger question is — why government is so intent on compiling this information in the first place?”

A bit of history here: The first decennial census was taken in 1790 and two rounds later, in 1810, the government began collecting information beyond a simple headcount. At that time, residents answered questions regarding housing conditions, schools, achievement of students and the economy, among other things. The president in 1810: James Madison, “Father of the Constitution.”

The resolution introduced by another Texan, Democratic Rep. Silvestre Reyes. While 409 lawmakers voted for it, 20 others, all Republicans, abstained.

It’s rather unusual for a lawmaker to speak against the census because the headcount is the basis for allotting the 435 House seats and residents are required by law to participate, said Tim Hodson, director for California Studies at Sacramento State University who studies redistricting.

Texas is expected to gain four seats in Congress this year, according to Data Election Services, a political consulting firm that tracks congressional seats.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2010/03/08/ron-paul-no-on-cens...

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hr111-1096&tab...

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CENSUS, OR UNCONSITUTIONAL SEARCH, THEN SEIZURE

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=iUMurKinTVE

Common sense should tell us that a census was never intended to collect information from Americans that we would not share with complete strangers, much less a government that now is engaged in the surveillance of its own citizens.

Ruling by prayer

Having read through this thread I am troubled....

....to note that there seems to be a fairly popular view here that principle should be applied sparingly, and only when politically expedient.

If indeed the enumerated powers and the 9th and 10th Amendments work together to mandate that Congress does only what is specifically authorized in the Constitution, then there is little room for disagreement. Even so, the "fuzzy math" of pragmatism seems to have taken hold of this country.

Surely if they were coming door to door to count heads and to steal all our cash, someone would object that this is "unconstitutional", since the stealing of our money is nowhere authorized. Similarly, if they came to count heads and demanded all our email accounts and passwords while they were at our houses, we would also object that this was "unconstitutional", since the Constitution authorizes no such demands for information.

If we are now reduced to arguing, however, over whether asking about infant mortality is a worthy violation/excess of the enumerated powers, we unwittingly expose our grand ignorance and lack of principle to the world. We have somehow mistaken the question of fact with the question of tolerable pragmatism.

"Yes, it may be technically illegal", we might reason, "but it's not causing any harm." And in such utterances we expose ourselves as the clueless consumers we have come to be, for we believe now that everything is--more or less---a matter of opinion. Indeed, we unwittingly promote and propagate the errant notion that public opinion is law. And in so doing, we show our utter ignorance of the wisdom of the rule of law over the rule of popular opinion.

We pride ourselves on our "open-mindedness" as we amiably nod our approval to one governmental excess of power after another---all because we deem these excesses to be of pragmatic value, even if they are "technically" illegal. We lack the sense, however, to realize that on any other day, we are cursing the government for seizing other powers not granted to it by the Constitution---where we perceive harm done. We are duplicitous in this way, yet we assume that we hold the golden wisdom of knowing when government SHOULD break the law and when it should not. And all who disagree with us are tyrants and scoundrels, of course. Surely they should know better, we reason. And we wonder why we just can't agree....as if all people of common sense SHOULD be able to reach a consensus on all matters political.

But this nation will never reach any meaningful consensus as long as it is behaving in the irrational realm of pretending that "violation" does not mean "violation", and "excess of power" doesn't mean "excess of power". Indeed, who is his right mind should EVER expect irrational people to reach broad and reasoned agreement?

All along, however, the FACT of law has stood starkly in view for all who would but acknowledge its self-evidential nature. It is a fact that we have a Constitution. It is a fact that this Constitution was intended to define and to limit our national government. And it is a fact that a great number of that government's present practices are neither found nor reasonably implied anywhere in that Constitution.

These are facts, and they are indisputable by rational means. Only the irrational need venture any further with this discussion.

To defend, therefore, that some particular, unauthorized act of Congress is not worthy of repeal on the grounds that it is an unauthorized act, is simply ignorant of the whole point of "a government of laws--and not of men." (John Adams)

James Fennimore Cooper was quite right when he observed:
"It is a besetting vice of democracies to substitute public opinion for law. This is the usual form in which masses of men exhibit their tyranny." (Yes, I know that we are not a "democracy".)

Indeed, we suffer from such tyranny every day, for the ailments that WE might stand up and fight against are often being promoted and defended by the public opinion. Yes, it is our own countrymen who daily support such a government as will violate our rights one after the other and tax us to bankruptcy. Therefore, it is not the government who is our ultimate enemy, but our fellow citizens who outnumber us with their dullard conventions.

How ironic, then, that we should join them--if even in one instance--in the ignorant notions that governmental indiscretions that are "not that bad" should be tolerated, and principle suspended for more important matters.

Principle never takes a holiday; it is always important to pure government, just as it is to matters of life and death. People are not so diligent, however, and they prefer to vacation often--even from the defense of the principles they claim to hold most dear.

I believe it was in the ghastly Confederate prison at Andersonville where the term "deadline" was invented. The prison had little by way of fences or walls. It simply had a white chalk line along the ground around the holding area, and all the prisoners were instructed to stay within that line. Any who crossed it were shot.

Undoubtedly, this was a principle that those prisoners learned quickly....for as long as it was enforced.

And so with our government. While they live mostly outside of the lines, we who are supposed to be their guards bicker amongst ourselves as to matters of FACT that could be easily verified by reading the very document about which we are arguing.

So what if...?

What if we read it and honestly observed that asking questions beyond a head count in the Census is NOT authorized by the Constitution? Would there be any danger to us in acknowledging a simple matter of FACT?

Would we not be free to AMEND the Constitution in order to allow for more if 3/4 of the States would sign off on it? Indeed, we would.

Or have we come so far down the slippery slope that we no longer think that the whole 3/4 ratification thing is a good idea? Are we now so dull as to opine that whatever the public will put up with is as-good-as-ratified?

Indeed, we have slipped into a greatly-ironic position, for Jefferson wrote of governments that they "deriv(e) their just powers from the consent of the governed,..."

Have we not practically acquiesced, therefore, and agreed that the Constitution is no longer in effect, and that our government is rightly empowered to do as it wills, since we more or less consent to the majority of its Constitutional excesses? Since we are neither voting them out of office nor "storming the castle", are we not in fact CONSENTING to this tyranny?

We are sick with pragmatism and devoid of principle. We lack the sense to begin with fact. We would rather FEEL our way into national reform---that reform being constituted of intangibles and mood changes, rather than by observable and measurable rectifications of what has gone wrong. Or others among us are tempted to MANIPULATE our way into reform, playing the game of being Constitutionalists in Republican clothing. But this always backfires, obfuscating the stark difference between truth/principle and the observable Republican paradigm.

We don't want the country fixed; we just want it "back"....whatever that is supposed to mean. We don't want a government of laws; we just want more people to agree with us. We don't want a government that has to obey the rules; we just want a "kinder, gentler" mob rule paradigm. We don't want to avoid lawlessness; we want to avoid "legalism". We don't want to attack the excesses of power; we want to attack what we consider to be excesses of reason and principle! We defend those who usurp too much while criticizing those who CARE too much. We excuse those ruled by lawlessness while criticizing those ruled by principle.

When a society sees unswerving principle as a vice, isn't its corruption obvious and indisputable?

If Congress would cut our taxes in half and cut the wars in half, this country would be tickled pink. They'd go another hundred years riding this stupid two-party pendulum back and forth and lying to themselves that they have fulfilled their ultimate duty to society by voting bi-annually for those officially-approved candidates who are put forth for their approval.

No wonder we have never fixed our Constitution where its weaknesses have been exploited. No wonder we continue to put up with the abuses.

If we haven't the sense to recognize that a good principle is always worthy of defending, then we do not deserve to live in a principled society.

It's very simple, folks; if it's not in the Constitution, it's an illegal act of the Federal Government. And if we think some particular new act is a GOOD idea, then we need to pass an amendment by one of the Constitutionally-prescribed methods. And if you don't think following this rule of law is a good idea now, just wait until a few more of your rights are infringed.

There can be no general limit to government; all limits must be specific ones.

"OK, don't cross that line, or I'll shoot. Hey, buddy, I meant that, now you get back over that line or I'm going to shoot you. OK, look, you've got to quit walking toward me and get back over there or I promise I'm gonna shoot you. Hey, you better bring my musket back here right now!"

Some guards, we. And stupid.

X,

Are you disputing my stereotypical American, whom I paint as a poor guard of his own government?

Or are you taking issue with my style of presentation---in which I assumed that reasonable people could understand for what it is, without taking offense if their efforts exceed the average?

Jack

The intent of my post...

...I believe, is quite clear.

I was not even speaking of myself, and yet *I* took no offense at it.

If you do not dispute the accuracy of my stereotype of America as a nation of unfit guardians, then your own variation from the stereotype is irrelevant.

And if you *do* dispute the stereotype, then your protest doesn't address your dispute. So on the whole, it would seem that you are simply indulging in taking issue with something.

Jack

And yet...

...had I written from a different perspective---NOT as part of a general "we", there would no doubt be obtuse individuals who would take issue with me for one of the following:

1. You're "judging".
2. So you think you're better than everyone else.
3. Well, you're not perfect yourself, mister.

Therefore, if you would like to propose a style of rhetoric that leaves no room for any obdurate person to ignore an indisputable assertion by way of taking exception on an irrelevant point of form, I'm all ears.

Jack

I made no such implication, X.

You understood what I meant, as would any mature person reading my post. In no place did I state or imply that all Americans are any particular way. Rather, I paint the picture of the nation as a whole acting in a particular way. And with this, you can take no issue.....else, I'm quite sure you would have done so already.

Jack

Risking Being Dismissed As Irrational

All along, however, the FACT of law has stood starkly in view for all who would but acknowledge its self-evidential nature. It is a fact that we have a Constitution. It is a fact that this Constitution was intended to define and to limit our national government. And it is a fact that a great number of that government's present practices are neither found nor reasonably implied anywhere in that Constitution.

These are facts, and they are indisputable by rational means. Only the irrational need venture any further with this discussion.QUOTE

It's NOT a fact that the Constitution was intended and defined to limit the central government. The very purpose of the convention was to increase the power of the central government, and they succeeded beyond our wildest nightmares.
The idea that a constitutional census requires only a head count is wrong. Census takers were required from the beginning to divide by slave and non-slave. How else could the 3/5 rule be applied?
Since the first census in 1790 people have been catagorized by age, gender,etc. Was the first census unconstitutional?
When did the census become unconstitutional?

JohnB,

You wrote: "It's NOT a fact that the Constitution was intended and defined to limit the central government."

This is twisting my post. What I wrote was: "It is a fact that this Constitution was intended to define and to limit our national government."

You continued: "The very purpose of the convention was to increase the power of the central government, and they succeeded beyond our wildest nightmares."

This does not negate my point. What they adopted did indeed define a limited government....even though that definition was not perfect, some of its limits are plain to any rational person who knows how to read. Whether it had more or fewer powers than what came before is irrelevant to this conversation.

You continued: "The idea that a constitutional census requires only a head count is wrong."

Here's the language:

(Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.) (The previous sentence in parentheses was modified by the 14th Amendment, section 2.) The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct.

From this poorly-written section, we can rationally extrapolate the following necessary questions:

1. How many free persons live here?
2. How many persons live here who are "bound to service for a term of years"?
3. How many are "Indians not taxed" live here?
4. How many "other persons" live here?

That's it. Nothing about infant mortality. Nothing about religion or race (other than "Indians", which is not a race). Anything beyond these questions is patently "unconstitutional".

It is not a matter of what we think OUGHT to be asked; it is a simple matter of what is written. All rational people should be able to acknowledge this very simple fact.

Jack

Not That Simple

It is not a matter of what we think OUGHT to be asked; it is a simple matter of what is written. All rational people should be able to acknowledge this very simple fact.QUOTE

Many rational people understand the powers of the government are derived from more than the literal words.
Some of us may not like the concept of implied powers, but there it is in the "Necessary and Proper" clause.

They should READ the clause first, JohnB.

You wrote:

"Many rational people understand the powers of the government are derived from more than the literal words. Some of us may not like the concept of implied powers, but there it is in the "Necessary and Proper" clause."

OK, so here's the clause:

The Congress shall have Power - To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

What may they "carry into Execution"? Only the "foregoing Powers", and "any other power vested by this Constitution...".

So where in the Constitution is the US Government vested with the powers to ask about infant mortality? (for example).

Nowhere.

It is wholly unnecessary and improper to ask about B when you are only authorized to ask about C. Indeed, asking about infant mortality (for example) does NOTHING to further the task of asking about the numbers of living people. It is a gratuitous excess in the authorized mission of the government. It's basically saying, "While we're here, do you mind if we ask you a bunch of stuff that's really none of our business."

You seem to have resigned yourself to the pragmatic whims of the government. If reams of Code have been passed by (wrongly) citing the Clause for justification, you seem to take that as the intended and proper intent of the Clause. Yet the plain meaning of the text is quite clear.

What is at issue here is the propensity of tyrants and scoundrels to twist the plain meaning of the text in order to justify governmental acts that have nothing to do with the authorized role of the government. This Clause no more justifies these excesses than do the 9th and 10th Amendments.

Jack

To Disagree Is Not To Twist

You wrote: "It's NOT a fact that the Constitution was intended and defined to limit the central government."

This is twisting my post. What I wrote was: "It is a fact that this Constitution was intended to define and to limit our national government."

You continued: "The very purpose of the convention was to increase the power of the central government, and they succeeded beyond our wildest nightmares."

This does not negate my point. What they adopted did indeed define a limited government....even though that definition was not perfect, some of its limits are plain to any rational person who knows how to read. Whether it had more or fewer powers than what came before is irrelevant to this conversation.

You continued: "The idea that a constitutional census requires only a head count is wrong."QUOTE

It's a misreading of history to say the purpose of the Constitution was to limit the central government. The purpose was to expand the power.
If they wanted to limit power, the Articles of Confederation would have been maintained. The Anti-Federalists knew the truth and rose in opposition.
The Constitution gave the government the power to do much more than power given through the literal words.
Only two sources of power,
1) The "Necessary and Proper Clause" (Implied Power)
along with,
2) The central government was the judge of its own power,
gave the centralizers what they wanted.
Any clever lawyer can create a rationalization to support the constitutionality of almost any government act. It was that way from the start.
The myth that the Constitution was created to limit government is just that, a myth. The truth was they wanted to create an American version of the British Empire and in time it came about. Patrick Henry saw through them, but the elites of the day prevailed.
Conclusion: The Constitution created not a limited government, but a government that could be expanded over time. History supports that view.

JohnB,

You are making an argument that is askew from my post. You keep insisting:

"It's a misreading of history to say the purpose of the Constitution was to limit the central government."

Yet what I have repeatedly written is:

"It is a fact that this Constitution was intended to define and to limit our national government."

You keep wanting to address the REASONS for which you think the Constitution was written and adopted, while I am addressing the document itself and what it actually does.

Let me make my point perfectly clear by asking you a few rhetorical questions.

1. Does the US Government have the authority to establish a national religion? No, because this would exceed the limits of their authority as written into the Constitution.

2. Does the US Government have the authority to establish itself as a business owner? No, because this would exceed the limits of their authority as written into the Constitution.

Again, it is a demonstrable matter of FACT that the Constitution does indeed limit the government. You are so adamant in protesting the Constitution that you are skipping over my undeniable point in order to argue something else entirely: whether the limits in the Constitution were greater or lesser than what had come before.

That is wholly irrelevant to anything I have written.

Now to your conclusion:

"Conclusion: The Constitution created not a limited government, but a government that could be expanded over time. History supports that view."

When offered as a contradiction to my original statement, this is a logical fallacy, for the limits in the Constitution are self-evident. Further, the excesses of power that have occurred have happened because of the lack of character in the citizens, and not because of the Constitution. Yes, the Constitution could have been written better to foresee more abuses, but that is beside the point. Even a perfectly-written and prescient document will not MAKE men behave.

Our country desperately needs to fix the Constitution. But we must first learn to obey the Rule of Law. Else, any fix will be ignored just as readily as is the Constitution.

There is no reason to believe that the nation is interested in reform. And we have come so far down the slippery slope that we would pretty much have to repeal the lion's share of the US Code if we were to restore the Constitution. The more likely scenario would be that some small region could draft a more perfect Constitution after this nation dissolves.

Jack

Summary:

"It's very simple, folks; if it's not in the Constitution, it's an illegal act of the Federal Government."

Ron Paul "Sign Wave Across the USA" -- November 5th!

Wish You Were Right

The Supreme Court has been finding whatever they desire in the Constitution for a long time. They found the right to privacy in the Constitution. For about 200 years it remained hidden. Amazing, lawyers are so clever. By definition whatever the court does is legal, until they change their minds.

Lucky me, I get to "participate" in the coming census

just got a letter yesterday addressed to "Resident". Seeing how "Resident" is not my name, perhaps I can opt out? ;-)

What are you fightin' for?
Caught in the middle?
Freedom is only for those with the guts to defend it!

"Resident" does clash with "Individual Rights."

At least "The Prisoner" had a number.

Notice on the form that they do not require a social security #.

LOL! True, the Resident neglected to fill it out. I do not claim

resident status as he/she/it gets all the junk mail. And I haven't gotten the actual form yet, they just sent out a letter saying I would be getting one next week, there's wasteful spending right there!

What are you fightin' for?
Caught in the middle?
Freedom is only for those with the guts to defend it!

What's not to get?

“Do what is right, though the world may perish”
Immanuel Kant

Why vote?

It was just a resolution with no effect in law. Ron Paul says the current census is unconstitutional.
How constitutional is a resolution? Where is that in the Constitution? Did RP violate the Constitution by voting?
If he runs in 2012 he'll hear the question,"you voted against supporting the census. Doesn't that put you outside the mainstream of the Republican Party"? The honest answer is yes.
Most people see this vote as just "nutty". It's votes like this that make me doubt his seriousness. All this does is lessen his credibility on issues vastly more important.

Ron Paul is an idealist, a purest when it comes to voting.

He could have easily voted yes here, instead of no.
He is called Dr. No for a reason. Isn't that the truth?

Isn't this vote by Ron Paul the reason why we are all here?

John, I do hope and pray that

John, I do hope and pray that some day you finally get through to him, so that he can benefit from your awe-inspiring gift for critical thinking.

I'm just not sure how he got as far as he did.

If Ron Paul is the only hope for this country, and you're the only hope of setting Ron Paul straight, well by golly we better do something here at the DP to get you in touch with the good doctor...

df can't there be one person on this forum who supports

Ron Paul, but doesn't believe he's totally perfect, without sin, the second coming? I want to vote for him, not worship at his shrine.
Is it against the rules to disagree with RP? Has a Cult of Ron Paul been created. Are the words of RP scripture? I doubt RP would think so.
Criticism is a good thing if honestly and factually done. We learn little from cheerleaders.
Thanks for your comments.

John B: I agree with you here

....but not with your original RP critique.

Yes you should be able to critique, however (as is always the case) RP was correct.

It is more important to give the lesson -- Constitutional Fanaticism (less an amendment be argued for) is EXACTLY the oath they all swore to uphold.

Of course -- I do not believe we can ever have liberty granted by someone other than ourselves.

Voting and Lobbying is the anti-thesis to liberty; however, if you have abdication of self-rule, self-health, and self-defense (by the people) -- then you should accept "imperfection" (as a rule) at the congressional level and judge based on who's "the closest" (oath-keeper).

'

'

Calm down

First of all, obviously resolutions are constitutional. They are how the laws are passed and how the government regulates itself. Second, voting against something that is unconstitutional is not unconstitutional. It seems like you are trying to demean being pro-constitution.

Also, he was making a point about how the current census is no longer within the bounds of the constitution, which is true.

I doubt that they will ask a question about a vote on a resolution about the census. Most people hate filling out census forms anyway.

I think you are really overreacting to this.

RP FTW

I am calm ZZZZ!

Are resolutions mentioned in the Constitution? Can one become law? A resolution is not a bill that can become law.
Having looked at censuses from the 19th century, a lot of personal questions were asked, like worth of personal property, real property. Women were even asked how many children they'd had and how many were alive.
Yes the Constitution doesn't mention any of this, but does that make the census unconstitutional? Does anyone believe the Supreme Court would ever rule it unconstitutional?
In the last campaign RP was asked his views about the Civil War. They'll ask him any question to try to make him appear foolish.
There are times when being a minority of one is a good thing, but over the census? All this does is make people doubt his seriousness.
How can he seriously seek to gain the Republican nomination for president if he continually goes against all or almost all of the other representatives of his party? I'm not saying being outside the mainstream of Republican elected officials is a bad thing, just that it makes gaining their approval nigh impossible.

Resolutions are just as much an Act of Congress as are Bills

that later become law.

Are you saying it is improper for Congress to pass resolutions?

You're right Sam

A resolution approved by both houses may become law with the president's signature, but is that what this is? Or is it just one of those sense of the House resolutions? Remember the one RP opposed in the criticism of Iran, the only vote against?
I don't see a mention in the Constitution of a resolution that can't become law. If not, a constitutional question can be raised just as RP questioned census questions not mentioned in the Constitution.
Am I wrong?

His reason for voting against the Iran resolution...

"I adhere to the foreign policy of our Founders, who advised that we not interfere in the internal affairs of countries overseas."

Agree

Was that resolution signed into law by the president? If the Constitution doesn't mention resolutions that can't become law, a case can be made that they're unconstitutional, just as RP made the constitutional argument about unmentioned census questions.