28 votes

"Our God Given Rights" Where in the Bible does God give?

I agree we have em, but I don't really have the reference to back it up... Anyone?

Chapter, verse, and version of Bible please

I have a B.A. in theology, maybe Im missing it?

Just wondering what everyone is usually referring to when they mention God Given Rights. We know the Right to Life is taken away by abortion, so all those beautiful children I bet would wonder too...
I think we should be clearer in how we say it?

To the guy who said I should read it and find out:
Clever. And I do read the Bible everyday. Every version of it too.

My main question is not if I believe it otr not it is asking why we say the bible gives us our God given Rights from the Bible. If it is deduced from reading the Bible that this is true, then OK I can agree. But we keep acting like there is one or a few specific places God gives them to us in the Bible. We should be straightforward, thats all.




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The lack of an explicit teaching doesn't mean that an implicit one does not exist. Why is an explicit reference important to you if the same concept is conveyed implicitly? Many rights can be derived from the moral law in the 10 commandments: 'You shall not murder' implies that you have a right to life. 'You shall not steal' implies that you have property rights, etc. Property rights might be applied to a host of things including what you do with your life, mind, and body. But things might be derived elsewhere in the bible as well: The benediction to 'be fruitful and multiply' could imply reproductive rights. The admonitions to parents in raising their children could imply parental rights. Penalties for certain actions can also imply rights, for example: When a pregnant woman is harmed to the indirect death of her unborn baby, The penalty in the old testament for that could imply value for the unborn.

Note: I find it hard to believe that the original poster is correct in saying that they read 'every' version of the Bible.

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

1 Corinthians 6:12
“All things are lawful unto me,” but all things are not expedient. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Corinthians 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient. All things are lawful for me, but all things do not edify.

grant

Great comments so far

I personally do not follow the bible any more and go more towards natural spirituality. I believe in natural rights like all wild animals. If one comes and takes from another they have the right to fight for what is theirs. In the same breath, in the wild there are bigger animals that take from smaller animals ( including their lives ) and exactly why smaller animals need a way to defend themselves.

We are the smaller animals and the government in my mind is the big bully wolf pack out there taking, attacking and killing and with that we have the right to defend ourselves, property and way of life by any means necessary.

http://shelfsufficient.com - My site on getting my little family prepped for whatever might come our way.

http://growing-elite-marijuana.com - My site on growing marijuana, strain reviews and other related topics.

Live and Let Live

Paul explained God-given rights to Greeks on Mars Hill

"(L)ife, and breath, and all things", pretty much covers what God has given to us all, "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth", that we, "should seek the Lord", "and find him, though he be not far from every one of us". "For we are also his offspring". Here's the rest in context:

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
)For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
)God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
)Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
)And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
)That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
)For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
)Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
)And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
)Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." - Acts 17:22-31

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

Leviticus has many laws, including the Golden Rule....

Leviticus 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourselves, this one is repeated again in vs. 33, in reference to 'foreigners'.

Leviticus 19:9 Leave some food on the corners for the poor and foreigners.

Granted, many of the other laws are stated in the form "Do not" infringe upon the rights of others, but they do imply a positive right to be treated fairly.

Leviticus 19:11 Do not steal. Do not lie, Do not deceive others.

Leviticus 19:12 Do not swear falsely by My Name and so profane it.

Leviticus 19:13 Do not defraud your neighbor or rob him. Do not withhold the wages of the day laborer overnight.

Leviticus 19:15 Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

Leviticus 19:35 Do not use dishonest standards when measuring weights, lengths or quantity. Use honesty scales and honest measures.

Whatever you might say about the other laws there, these are sound rules for life!

But that man should play the tyrant over God, and find Him a better man than himself, is astonishing drama indeed!~~D. Sayers
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

www.dailypaul.com/280083/jesus-christ-vic

Natural Rights are God Given Rights

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Rights

our endowed by our 'creator', you don't have to believe in the bible to have Rights, they are inherent in the nature of the Human Being

Enonesoch

Pastor Chuck Baldwin did a whole sermon on the topic


http://youtu.be/2I01qQ0MTq4

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
www.yaliberty.org - Young Americans for Liberty
www.ivaw.org/operation-recovery - Stop Deploying Traumatized Troops

I don't know that it is

specific to the Bible.

I think they are just saying God-given is assumed as we were created by God and he gives us the "right" to live on earth and breathe air.

"Once you become knowledgeable, you have an obligation to do something about it."- Ron Paul

No it was intentional

Unlike Christians and the layman today, the average American in the 1700's on the street knew their bible. Part of the reason we are in this mess is because people have no foundational understanding of where rights came from.

If you truly knew that God intended for us to have these necessary rights, how likely would you be to go up against them? How likely could you with a populace who knew the word.

No we have suffered a dumbing down.

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
www.yaliberty.org - Young Americans for Liberty
www.ivaw.org/operation-recovery - Stop Deploying Traumatized Troops

Fair point

Good word.

"Once you become knowledgeable, you have an obligation to do something about it."- Ron Paul

Cyril's picture

'Hope it helps,

My personal conception is that your God Given Rights are all those rights that you can think of that life provided you with - e.g., expressing an opinion or asking a question openly just like you did - and that do not infringe...

... ON OTHER PEOPLE'S God Given Rights.

Clue #1:

you are suggested that you are infringing upon their rights when they start complaining about you and your FORCEFUL ACTIONS against what they themselves believe, think, say, our own by the fruit of their voluntary labor.

Usually you will hear from more than just one of them, as free people conscious of their rights often share a common set of positive values to defend those when they understand them the same or very similarly.

Clue #2:

Contrary to a modern and fashioned opinion pushed hard by specific interest groups, such rights have nothing to do with what is referred to as "entitlements", provided by law or otherwise.

If that were the case, there would be only one noun instead of two instead in English dictionaries, or one would be marked as synonym of the other.

(And I suggest you question as suspect if the latter ever happens, btw - who knows)

Finally, the same applies for laws that you ought to feel provided with the God Given Right to question any time you feel they are unjust.

Does that help?

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Cyril's picture

God Given Rights wrt. "What is Liberty?"

See also, if not done yet, about how the two can be seen related:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psV6pOsW9YY

Interestingly, there isn't even much strong requirements - if any at all - to involve the Bible, actually (although one shall remain perfectly free to do so if that makes for a better rationale for them - as long as nothing is forced on others)

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

I suppose it's implied by the

I suppose it's implied by the fact that Eve and Adam could not have violated God's command if they lacked free will.

I think too that God given rights refer to natural rights - that is if you believe that things are naturally the way they are as a result of having been created by God.

Will keep looking maybe this might help.

Blackstone British Law Dictionary was used as legal reference when our Constitution was formed.
That might be a good place to begin.

It all...

...stems from 'God is Love' -- and the creation of other beings who are to grow into full participation with Love. Love is the boundary for everything and defines what the relation between God and man and between man and man ought to be. Love God, love neighbor are the two Greatest Commands Christ affirmed. From this flows Liberty as a natural condition of a people living in love for each other.

Note that merely clamoring after political Liberty, without having the engine of Love, of very life, driving it will be an exercise in futility. It will decay into strife and hatred and chaos without that.

God has the right to keep a claim on us to become the persons of Love we are meant to be; as His creatures we have the right to expect that our God will in all He does be doing it for the final purpose of Love, for goodness, even if it be allowing the sufferings of Job, or the consuming fire to destroy our false notions, our enthronement of Self as god, that would come between us and Love.

God-given Rights are the corollary of God's Law.

As our Creator and therefore our Owner, God has given us His Law. This Law describes the way in which we are designed to function, both individually and collectively. It also lays out God's Plan and purposes for us and how He will achieve them.

As a consequence the Law sovereignly prevents us from departing from our ordained path both individually and collectively. Nevertheless we have been given a limited degree of authority, both individually and collectively, to determine our own path. This enables us to prove the validity and righteousness of God's Law and to learn of Him.

The Law confers on each of us a responsibility and the absolute right to seek out the perfect will of God in order to align ourselves with His mind and ways. Even if we depart from His perfect will we cannot escape His sovereign will which will employ all our actions, both individually and corporately, to complete His Plan for all of us.

The Law is spiritual and is the essence of His Word. His Word became flesh in the Lord Jesus Christ who demonstrated the meaning of His Law. This demonstration, this testimony, is the meaning of all prophecy. It is said of the Lord Jesus Christ:

“Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I take great delight. I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. He will not quarrel or cry out, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets. He will not break a bruised reed or extinguish a smoldering wick, until he brings justice to victory. And in his name the nations will hope.” (Matthew 12:18-21)

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (John 1:17-18)

As to His mission the Lord Jesus said:

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfil. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Therefore we can conclude that Grace and Truth are the ordained fulfilment of the Law. Before the Lord Jesus came men had revelation of the Law but they tried to fulfil it by their own efforts and they were given leave to try. However, as prophesied, this proved to be impossible because they lacked the spiritual understanding and power to do so. Grace, the Love of God in action, gives us the power and wisdom to fulfil the Law when we follow on to know the Lord Jesus Christ in Spirit and in Truth. He Himself says about this:

"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?" (Matthew 16:24-26)

And He further teaches us:

Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?

And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

Therefore do not be anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or What shall we drink? or What shall we wear? For the nations of the world seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you." (Matthew 6:25-33)

We therefore learn that the most fundamental unalienable right we have received from God is the right to seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness, an understanding of His ways and Law. He has furthermore promised to empower us to do this when we believe in, receive and surrender to the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no greater right than this.

This is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence as "the Pursuit of Happiness". Happiness is defined in scripture as Blessedness.

"Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners,nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night." (Psalm 1:1-2)

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matthew 5:3-11)

In order to exercise that fundamental right to seek first the Kingdom of God it is necessary that other rights are given to us to do so. The right to life and the right to liberty are amongst those rights which are also protected by the Law. They are always contingent however on our exercising our first right faithfully. This is why the Lord Jesus said:

"Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)

This is why one cannot simply demand rights. They are given to us freely but for a purpose. If we choose to ignore their purpose then we may no longer claim to have rights and are under the Law for all our actions against it.

Having said this we may be called upon by God to submit to His sovereign will, to surrender all our rights and say with the Lord Jesus:

Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done." (Luke 22:42)

Even if our will is aligned with God's perfect will we may nevertheless be called to surrender our rights, such as life and liberty, to His sovereign will in order to serve His Plan and purposes. The only right we need never surrender is our right to know Him as fully as we are known by Him. This is only possible for us as individuals to do, willingly and consciously, when we are living fully in His presence and in perfect communion with Him, having the mind of Christ and hearing His voice.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

As an atheist, I view God

As an atheist, I view God given rights as simply rights that we naturally have. It is something that we are born with, that no one has given to us.

Also the Bible is simply a selection of stories that were put together into a single book. It doesn't mean that all of the word's of God were included in it; maybe the one that said, "I, God, give men the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. No person or tyrannical government shall ever infringe on these rights or I will send them to hell." You never know :)

Genesis, Proverbs & Matthew

Genesis 9:6
Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.

Proverbs 14:31
He who oppresses a poor man insults his Maker,
but he who is kind to the needy honors him.

Matthew 7:11
11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! 12 So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

Similar

I had a similar thread that I found very enlightening, so if you check my very few posts you'll see it. It's called, "The Myth of Rights" or something like that ha.

The simple answer is, no where is there any clear teaching on natural rights found in the Bible.

I think the best way to come at it is, that we are God's image bearers, because we are, there is a common dignity that should be granted to all humans as God's workmanship. Being created in the image of God, gives us a natural right to "good" treatment, from this source one can derive a basic understanding of rights.

Without God however, in the naturalist framework, later, see ya, NO rights! Not even possible. This is one of the main things that the Naturalist can't answer. They'll do back flips trying to give themselves intrinsic worth and equality while in a natural world it simply can't exist. Hope this is some help. God Bless

Define you thesis in more specific terms.

What rights, To keep and bear arms? To travel unhindered ? Free speech ? Religion ?

Now I've never been to a prestigious University secular or religious, but I've walked with the Lord these last 20+ years in personal relationship. At present I spend a mere hour or so daily in His word, and I study from the Koine or Hebraic to ensure I understand the text as it was written then and not as modern vocabulary's definitions have changed it.

If I were to speak as a man, seeking praises or acclimation I might be well able to lay claim to a length of intense study worthy of a double doctorate in divinities and ancient cultures, but I've no toilet paper stating I spent money to learn it from men, why should I when the Word promises that the Spirit will guide me into all truth and understanding. I care not for accolades, nor do I find paying for something which is free from the source to be wise stewardship.

Now to answer your question, no where except in our hearts. We are to worship God and Him alone. To allow mere men to limit us from protecting ourselves ( a selfish desire of the flesh I think ) or family ( not selfish at all ), or to hinder our traveling, or the other varieties of " laws of control " men place upon others is anathema to a man in Christ after a fashion.

After what fashion? Simply this, as I am sanctified in Christ Jesus, made new by Faith in showing forth His workings through my flesh, that is to say I become OTHERS centered in my life and ways. I discover that men have placed upon me both moral and regulatory burdens that HINDER Gods purposes through me. Feeding the hungry, caring for the sick and imprisoned, clothing the needy, thinking of and providing for others out of the ever increasing abundance God so graciously pours into my life from His window in heaven.

The Apostiles, said it this way " you decide, is it better to obey God or men? We shall obey God ". When religious/ secular authority ( the Sanhedrin ) tried and failed to silence them.

There are however many precious promises interspersed in the Word in the Old and New testaments that are intended for this very day and time in which we are now living, should we be faithful to the covenant that is.

For the Covenant of blessings and curses has not changed, the WAY to achieve obiedence to it for men HAS changed in the Person of Jesus Christ. Who having left off His Godliness, took upon Himself by choice the VERY form and fullness of a life as a man, walked amongst us, relayed fully upon the Spirit by which he communicated with His Father in prayer always, sinned not, yet chose once again by His own choosing to sacrifice Himself so that ALL men might be saved.

By His example then I must ask everyone here, at what point and specifically in what manner did Jesus ever " Stand upon His rights " when dealing with mankinds abuses of Him ?

Are we not to literally take up our cross ( the events of this life in total ) and FOLLOW, that is mimic His example ?

This is one reason I feel very strongly that those who have been truly born again are Natural born Libertarians at heart. Because we, through Jesus are fully self governing, having not thought to harming or controlling others.

We want to be left alone, to work In Jesus to help others. After all, time is now quite short, and many who might be saved still need to hear of the magnificent and unending Love of God.

God Bless
Stēkō Pharrēsia Iēsous

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

Gotta correct you on this one Vicki

God "hopes" for NOTHING!

He knows the end from the beginning about everything even before He created everything!

He is all knowing!

NOTHING is hidden from Him, no, not even the thoughts or intents of the heart of man!

In regards to the OP's question, I answer it this way: EVERYTHING I have is given to me by the Lord and all I have is His!

Praise be His Holy Name!

" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~

I have a B.A. in theology!!!

Is that from a GOBMT approved and funded college?
That's one of the biggest problems we have.
So where in the doctrine does it say that after receiving this degree
you would have knowledge?

NOSHEEPLE

How snarky

Are you implying that nothing can be learned from other people? That everyone that ever got a degree in anything is stupid? That they never learned anything? That this guy didn't learn anything? He has one question and so you mock his education? That's pretty elitist dude.

I didn't see it that way.

To begin with, college professors are by far a left leaning group. "Fully 72% of professors identify themselves as liberals. At Ivy League Universities, an even larger majority, 87% of professors identified themselves as liberals.[7]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_elite#United_States_usage

David Horowitz has published a number of books on the subject: One Party Classroom; The Pro-F-essors:The 101 Most Dangerous Academics in America; Indoctrination U: The Left's War Against Academic Freedom; The Heterodoxy Handbook: How to Survive the PC Campus; and Reforming Our Universities: The Campaign For An Academic Bill Of Rights.
http://www.amazon.com/Indoctrination-Lefts-Against-Academic-...

Couple that with a politically-charged subject like religion and a culture in which the global socialistic politically-correct religion is secular humanism, and I think it's fair to say that, these days, coming out of a state school with a degree in theology, you *might* have a somewhat sketchy and biased view of Christianity.

There is, furthermore, a watering down of many majors. For instance, in the good old days, someone with a B.A. in Literature would certainly have taken a course in Shakespeare. Not necessarily anymore. Beginning in the 60's, core curriculum for all undergrads and certain subjects covered within departments of the different disciplines (no matter where you attended college) were replaced with the Chinese menu approach: one from column A, one from column B. So regardless of your major, it's not *necessarily* that you'll have an incomplete education--- but you easily could. [I'll make an exception for degrees in teacher education. There, you *will* necessarily receive a shoddy education. These days, so-called teacher training is a farce.]

FYI, the Intercollegiate Studies Institute (ISI) has two great resources:

First, a COLLEGE GUIDE. I discovered it when my oldest was in high school, and I pretty much read it cover to cover. It's not only enlightening, but fun. (At Amazon, you can see a sample listing.) CHOOSING THE RIGHT COLLEGE - The Inside Scoop on Elite Schools and Outstanding Lesser-Known Institutions (formerly, The Whole Truth About America's Top Schools) As it says at the listing, it features:
~Insider advice on professors, courses, and departments—especially the ones to avoid
~A unique “traffic light” feature—red, yellow, or green—that reveals the state of free speech on campus and intellectual freedom in the classroom
~Handy lists of schools’ strengths and weaknesses
~The truth about day-to-day student life: living arrangements, campus safety, the social scene, and much more
~An insider’s look at the pros and cons of online education
~A road map for getting a real education at any college
http://www.amazon.com/Choosing-Right-College-Americas-School...

~ Second, the ISI GUIDES TO THE MAJOR DISCIPLINES. I'd call these, "How to become a well-rounded citizen." These feature essays and/or advice regarding an education (in college or otherwise!) in various different disciplines: History, Philosophy, Psychology, etc. The series also includes one, Core Curriculum, to help an undergrad plan out college courses regardless of major, the kind that used to be required of all students - providing a certain level of "cultural literacy." Available through ISI's fantastic catalogue or amazon. http://isibooks.org/books/series/isi-guides-to-the-major-dis...

P.S. Writing that last paragraph, I can't help but think of our amazing Founding Fathers. Also the farmers/regular ol' uneducated folks who were the intended audience of the Federalist Papers, which COLLEGE students of today have difficulty with.

~ From an essay on the Federalist Papers by John Eidsmoe, a professor of Constitutional Law. "THE FEDERALIST PAPERS: THE KEY TO RESTORING OUR CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC"

"For an Elite Audience
I've always required my students to read the Federalist Papers and they tell me it makes stimulating reading. But they say it's the most difficult thing they've ever had to read in their entire academic careers. I can't resist the Opportunity to comment on that a little bit. I usually tell them that there's a reason they find it difficult.

The Federalist Papers were written for a very elite audience—the farmers of 18th century New York—to encourage them to support the Constitution I tell my students: "You can't expect to equal the farmers of 18th century New York because you've had twelve years of schooling here and some of you have been stunted still further by four years in a university. But if you really pull yourselves up by the boot straps, you might be able to remotely approach the level of academic sophistication of the farmers of 18th century New York." Some of my students come close.

~ Well, that's one reason colleges don't teach the Federalist Papers. It's above the reading level of the average American college student of today. There are other reasons, too, as this WSJ article points out. Peter Berkowitz: "Why Colleges Don't Teach the Federalist Papers"
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405270230474370...

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

Umm...

I agree with you points about colleges. I'm just making an assumption that this person attended a Christian school. You don't hear many people saying they got a BA in theology from the State University of New York at Oswego. Pretty sure it's not even a major at a lot of state schools. Sooo... umm... yeah.

The first schools *I* thought of were Harvard & Yale

Schools of Divinity. Yes, I was wrong to say "state school." I'm sure you're right about SUNY & other state ed. systems (not) offering theology degrees. What NOSHEEPLE said - and what I was really replying to - was colleges that were gov't "funded & approved." Even rich secular schools like Harvard & Yale receive gov't funds. (They may not have started out secular, but that's a different story.) And they're certainly gov't accredited. Actually, while this is not a complete list of schools offering theology degrees, here are members of the Assoc. of Theological Schools, whose accrediting is approved by-- the USDE. http://www.ats.edu/member-schools/member-school-list

But, I nonetheless think you're probably right about that B.A. being conferred by a Christian school - not that NOSHEEPLE made that assumption! (And so was not disparaging Christian schools but, as I took it, "education today" in general.) It seems that, in the U.S. anyway, programs in theology are primarily at the graduate level.

The moral of the story I'm taking away here is that people shouldn't make assumptions. :)

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

I am

humbled,,,

NOSHEEPLE

Please!

Please read the scripture with your heart, and not the guidelines set by the State.
It sounds like your PROUD of your bite of the apple.

NOSHEEPLE

Lost

God is sovereign, he gives information and you can acquire it in many ways. Humans can be God's hand in your life, hence evangelization. Are you saying you never learned anything from a sermon?