28 votes

"Our God Given Rights" Where in the Bible does God give?

I agree we have em, but I don't really have the reference to back it up... Anyone?

Chapter, verse, and version of Bible please

I have a B.A. in theology, maybe Im missing it?

Just wondering what everyone is usually referring to when they mention God Given Rights. We know the Right to Life is taken away by abortion, so all those beautiful children I bet would wonder too...
I think we should be clearer in how we say it?

To the guy who said I should read it and find out:
Clever. And I do read the Bible everyday. Every version of it too.

My main question is not if I believe it otr not it is asking why we say the bible gives us our God given Rights from the Bible. If it is deduced from reading the Bible that this is true, then OK I can agree. But we keep acting like there is one or a few specific places God gives them to us in the Bible. We should be straightforward, thats all.




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So... we spend our lives

So... we spend our lives fighting for a free, Individualist Republic where law is defined by natural rights and voluntary choice, free of coersion against law abiding citizens (provided the law is just).

Then...

We die and turn into collectivist subjects with no rights, no say in anything who are the "property" of their divine master and subject to blind obediance on threat of violence and force for any who question/defy/disagree. Thats our reward. Eternal subjegation to a perfect dictator.

And nobody sees a problem with this? At least we're being honest with ourselves now. Good posts.

re - After Death =

= After death we are in the UnSeen zone. No soul (or life form) has ever returned to tell us what s/he witnessed in the other domain /realm /zone. First we need to settle affairs on Earth. Those who believe in & are mindful of the Judgment Day - are also more respectful of the rights of others, - here on Earth.

re Dictator & Subjects. First we need to question & answer to our-Self, i.e. resolve internally, that - do I /we have a Creator? (Who? Name?)
If "no", then am free - with no duties. If the answer is "Yes" - then I /we follow The Word.

Compartmentalisation in action.

Here is the Jan Helfeld interview with Hairy Reid. All of you agreed with this 100% and laughed as Reid contradicted himself, displaying his blatant hypocracy and illogical stance.

http://iroots.org/2012/08/01/rush-limbaugh-plays-jan-helfeld...

Now, watch as those of you who denied what I wrote below display the same illogical compartmentalisation and act exactly like Hairy Reid... stammering and struggling to come up with ridiculous excuses and rationalizations as you read(feel free to play the video as you read along):

athiest "Jan" interviews a Christian who believes in Hell:

Jan: If Religeon is in the business of forcefully demanding worship of God from people in order to be allowed into Heaven and avoid hell, how will the people who don't worship or believe in God feel about the religeon?

Christian: Well I don't agree with your phraseology, I don't think we force people...

Jan: Being sent to hell for not worshipping is not forceful?

Christian: Well, no.. infact its quite the contrary. Our system of religeon is based on free will.

Jan: Oh, if you don't want to believe or worship, you won't go to hell?

Christian: Of course you have to worship God, but...

Jan: Well then God will force you to worship by imprisoning you in Hell if you don't, will he not?

Christian: We have free will in our religeon. The fact of the matter is, when you worship... you see in many other religeons, they don't have free will. Their people's fate is predetermined and their false gods don't give them a chance to be forgiven and accepted into heaven. Their fate is predecided.

Jan: But God already knows everything right? So he knows if you're going to be damned or saved?

Christian: Well, yes that is in the bible, but im talking about with some religeons, Asian ones as an example, you don't have to ask for forgiveness or Worship, there is no need to because your False gods have already decided your fate and you can't be saved. Thats the differance between a free will and non-free will based religeon.

Jan: But can't...

Christian: You can choose not to worship, or not believe in God, but I don't accept your phraseology that HE forceably throws non-believers into Hell... thats the way it is with most things in the bible. Sinning is like that, If you don't ask to be forgiven... God forceably throws you into Hell to suffer (by your phraseology) so he can gain new worshipers, or keep current ones from leaving.

Jan: Can a person decide not to worship if he wants?

Christian: He "can" not worship, he wouldn't be let into heaven...

Jan: God would put him in Hell. He'd use force against him. Everybody worships under threat of Hell and fire. Under threat of force. In other words, you are forced to worship, wether you ask to be baptized voluntarily or if you're baptized at birth. You don't have a choice on wether you can worship a God you may not even believe exists. A God maybe no one could convince you was real. You can't make that choice.

Christian: No but the reason our religeon is called "free will" (and I recognise you can't refuse to worship God), but our... we have many paths to heaven in our faith they don't have in many religeons. We have the ability to grovel and submit ourselves to God's cosmic authority. They don't have that in most religeons. We have indulgences you can buy so you can sin... for certain excessive things related to sins, hookers, murder. We have all kinds of ways to get out of hell... some call them confession or blind, unquestioning obedience, but others would call them incentives for people to worship. Also, God doesn't put you in Hell, you put yourself there by not worshipping, so thats why your not forced to worship.. there are ways...

Jan: You can decide not to worship in the Christian faith?

Christian: I really don't understand what you're trying to get at, the point of the matter...

Jan: Because you objected to my phraseology. You say that God isn't forceably making you worship him under threat of eternal damnation, when infact, that's what he's doing. Because worship is forceful, its backed up in physical force. If you don't worship, God will intervien with you forcefully. So you don't have a choice, its not free will, you can't decide not to worship or believe and not suffer consequences. If you don't worship, you'll go to Hell. So you're forced to worship.

Christian: You don't go to Hell... some people go to Hell. There are all kind of penilties if you don't Worship... you get to hear how evil you are from my followers, maybe sit in Limbo first, or tortured just long enough to make you love me... Fact of the matter is, our faith is a "free will" religeon.

SteveMT's picture

Magwan77: The selective application of logic is illogical.

In essence, that is what you are saying, and I agree with you. The same hypocrisy exists if religious logic is only selectively applied.
Examples are manifold in religion because of selectively applying what was intended.
No killing: (except in war. Then God blesses the killing.)
No stealing: (lots of land, belongings, and people were taken in the name of God)
No adultery: (unless you happen to be Solomon.)

Selectively applying logic is worse than not at all.

i think it just a saying

Basically, to say that our rights do not come from the government but rather the creator or natural law. From the bible, god designed life to not have rulers over us but rather guides like a shepard. Man was always to be free, subject only to Him for we are mortal. psalm 23 is a good reminder of one's own relationship with his maker. God is in need of nothing, but we rely on Him for everything.

Obey your leaders and submit to them

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

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I few look at the original

If we look at the original text we find a few problems...

"Persuade them that rule over you..."

The greek word "Peitho" is translated 7 times in the Bible as "obey", yet the word has no definition even close to obey. "Peitho" is only defined as "persuade", and is translated as "persuade" 22 times in the New Testament.

In reading the whole of Hebrew 13, it is not leaders of Man's government that is being referenced here, it is the leaders of HIS government (the "Church") being referenced.

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SteveMT's picture

Thanks Tx. That makes a lot of sense.

Submitting and obeying to the likes of a Chairman Mao does not make any sense. God had no hand in placing Mao into power. In contrast, the devil had much to do with it, IMO.

leaders are not rulers

It is ok to follow guides, but not to do so; is ok as well. Some are blind guides and they will put you in a ditch. You must decide for yourself what is right for you. If you follow than obey, do not cause trouble. But if you have doubts, I think it is best not to follow at all. God will be with you always either way.

Submission to Governing Authorities

Romans 13

Submission to Governing Authorities

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

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The Bible quote you give of

The Bible quote you give of Romans 13 is a translation, actually a translation of a translation...

Through MIStranslation, the governments of the world (in this case, King James) gain power for themselves by simply mistranslating a single word from the original text: "Exousia"

A more correct translation of Romans 13 would go like this:

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher liberty. For there is no liberty but of God: the liberties that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth (opposes) the liberty, resisteth (opposes) the ordinance of God: and they that resist (sets one's self against) shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the liberty? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same.” Romans 13: 1,3

I have written and referenced Romans 13 MANY times here on Daily Paul, here is a link to one post with reference as to the mistranslation: Romans 13 mistranslated

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People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

Romans 13... Hitler's favorite chapter

Our Lord was subject to such "authorities" and he ended up on the cross. King Herod was a ruler and he issued a decree to kill all children up to the age of 2. And for what? What was the good of that? Shall I go on? I would refer you to 1 Samuel 8, this chapter may explain God's original intent. We all are subject to governing authorities, for we use their false money; but if the rulers be evil you will not be spared. Psalm 116:15 Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints. Tu ne cede malis--Ludwig Von Mises

There is a difference though

I was thinking about this yesterday.

There is a difference between "natural rights" and God given rights.

With natural rights, there is an acknowledgement of what is right, but in the words of an infamous politician, "no controlling legal authority".

The other is God given rights, which recognizes a legal authority. The Declaration of Independence is written in the form of a covenant, which is different than simply recognizing natural rights. It recognizes that the Creator gave men rights, appeals to the Supreme Judge of the world, and pledges everyone's sacred honor.

It may not be a perfectly written covenant, as law breakers have entered in who have not personally pledged their sacred honor, but a covenant made before God is more than natural rights "without a controlling legal authority", as some wicked minded would put it.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Thou shalt not

Thou Shalt not murder = right to life
Thou Shalt not steal = right to keep the fruits of our labor
Thou shalt have no other gods before me = a government that dictates to you what you can and cannot do, even though those things do not violate God's laws, becomes your god to where you are a slave to that god.

I'm not a Bible scholar but that's how I see it.

The Gist of A Sermon I once preached on July 4th Last Year

1) We are all created in God's image
2) God created us to be living creatures. He gave us life because he is the eternally living God. The life he created us to have in hos image was not only Physical but spiritual also.
3) God created us with liberty. We were created as free human beings. Why because God is free and at liberty to do all that is in accordance with his will and nature. Not only were we created with physical freedom to live but also with spiritual freedom with which to worship our creator.
4) God created us to persue happiness. How? by our work that we might enjoy the fruits of our labours and subdue the creation and have dominion over it. That is the physical pursuit of happiness but with our spirtual life and spirtual freedom we were able to pursus true happiness with a living loving relationship with God.

However - Man fell into sin

He lost his physical life (in the day that thou eat thou shalt surely die) and he lost his spiritual life. (seperated by sin from God)
He lost his liberty - He became a slave to the creation which he was supposed to subdue and have dominion over. An dhe lost his spiritual liberty by becoming enslaved to sin and sinful desires.
He lost his ability to freely pursue true happiness in that he now sought it in things other than His creator.

The Solution

Jesus came to as the second Adam to pay the penalty for our sin and giving to us his right standing before God.

He purchased for us a spiritual life - putting back in a living relationship with God and gave us the hope of eternal life in heaven at death and in the new heavens and the new earth after the resurrection.
He purchased for us Spiritual liberty - by which we are now free to sin no more - and the hope that one day we will be free from the presence of sin "The glorious liberty of the sons of God"
He purchased for us the ability to once again pursue God and find true happiness and again with the hope that we will inherit true happiness in the here after.

BUT WITH THIS RENEWED / REDEEMED LIFE / LIBERTY do we simply sit back and wait for Glory??? NO!!!!!!

With the spiritual life we seek to strive in this world to protect life that is created in God's image. demonstrating to the world that life is precious. We are all created in his image.

With the spiritual liberty we have received we seek to promote liberty on earth as we have no king but Jesus.

We pursue and demonstrate to the world where true happiness can be found. We should enjoy the fruits of our labors but recognize that the abundance we have is from God, and we demonstarte to the world that ultimately only true happiness can be found in a right relation ship with him.

Blessed are the peacemakers

Mr. Hancock

John Hancock

1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."

donvino

Source

--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

donvino

http://www.scribd.com/doc/988

http://www.scribd.com/doc/98863140/Day-of-Fasting-and-Prayer...

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

I like to make the natural argument....

for fundamental rights. They are a result of our humanity and precede the creation of government and therefore are superior.

The right to life naturally arose because no one liked the idea of being murdered. So, people agreed amongst each other to refrain from the act and punish it.

Property rights arose when another skilled person was able to generate tools or items that others' were unable to make. Naturally, others admired the person's unique belongings and wanted these for themselves. Upon the first theft, people naturally began protecting their property.

The religious argument is fine as well but is not necessary to establish the supremacy of natural rights to the rule of law because law was created and governments were instituted to protect those rights - nothing more.

While I agree with the poetry of your words

I must point out that there has never (in all human history) been a gov't that "mind's the store" (the store of rights) as you outlined or in the way you suggest.

I would argue that if a Gov't has the ability or potential to circumvent that basic responsbility (one that for some reason we cannot be responsible for as individuals) then it will ALWAYS do so -- it will always meddle.

I stand on all human history as an example of how "it" (gov't) cannot meddle.

The potential to circumvent begins with gov'ts who are elected to office via popular vote (whether it's all-can-vote or only a few-can-vote type system does not matter).

Abdication of Consumer-Rule begins with Ballot-Box Voting......the absolute corruption of post ballot-box effort begins with Lobbying (bribery).

I outlined....

the reasons why governments were instituted. I never claimed that they faithfully served their intended purposes.

By the way, that argument is similar to the non-religious version of the argument Judge Napolitano has given in the past.

To give my opinions about how government will end up ultimately, I would say - as I implied in the post - that early man (current as well) are materialists to some degree. People are always admiring the possessions of other people. For instance, why would a person compliment another person's clothes other than the fact that they know it will make the other person feel good inside about their material taste that lead them to purchase the clothes in the first place?

Eventually - maybe hundreds of years from now - Man is going to realize that the path to happiness is not necessarily attained through material possessions or clout. Man will come to know that happiness can only be achieved through pursuing one's own interests and supporting those around them that they hold dear in their pursuits as well. Jealousy of others' abilities and/or possessions, hopefully, will one day end.

That is the only way society will stop instituting governments. People will have to give up their desires to be like everyone else. They will have to be comfortable being themselves rather than keeping up with the Jones.

Money is not the the answer, and money is not power. If money gave absolute power, Donald Trump could convince the world he has a nice haircut. Even if he paid someone to say it, they would just be lying.

My point being...

Government wasn't necessary in the beginning stages of civilization. The 'need' for it arose through Man protecting his natural rights because others had little respect for them - individual enforcement was difficult if a person was physically inferior.

Accordingly, the only way to get rid of government is for people to (near-)universally have respect for one another's rights.

Is that your "fantasy football 'big balla'" photo -- hahaha

Wise words my friend.

Thanks...

I appreciate it.

What Was That Tree ?

that took away Adam's shirt , = disrobed.
must be thorny ^^^ - that nick,
or a TRIck, that made him TriP,
treat not as TriVia, nor TRIfle,
here we offer no TriLogy.

It's very simple.... God gave

It's very simple.... God gave us life and free will.... Sounds much like liberty....

What I never understood in

What I
never understood in the Bible is why did God destroy cities and people for being wicked when he gave us free will? I find this contradictory.

Psssssff *whispers in ear* "It's because MOST of the Bible

was metaphorical" as was most "eastern philosophy"

Men watched cities being destroyed and when women and children cried out "why Lord why" the men came up with answers.

They took the things they understood as inequities or perversions and saw how those things were "common" practice and put a highlighter over each one.

Then as the stories were re-told -- orally -- to scare new generations they'd say "and owing to the walkman and devil music, God spat Sodom and Gamorrah from his gaping maw"

*took some liberties there*

But who hasn't -- whoooo hasn't it, seriously I'm in good company.

buckly up

http://www.scribd.com/doc/101103173/First-Four-of-Sixteen-Se...

These are the first four sermons from Dr. John Witherspoon on basic Christian doctrine. Since he is one of our founding fathers, and this is two hundred years ago, this might be interesting for both our histroy and because you know it hasn't been watered down in the modern age.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

I don't think John would approve of "rock type music" being

played in nearly every modern Church - I've even seen them in Catholic Churches.

So far I've never seen them in a Hindu Temple; but they have the Esraj and really cool drums (they are inspired drummers) to play during Bajans.

I found his sermons to be of the "old inifinite sinner" and the "tongue is the vilest of all members [of the body]"

He owned slaves, so that type of perpetual guilt seems understandable.