28 votes

"Our God Given Rights" Where in the Bible does God give?

I agree we have em, but I don't really have the reference to back it up... Anyone?

Chapter, verse, and version of Bible please

I have a B.A. in theology, maybe Im missing it?

Just wondering what everyone is usually referring to when they mention God Given Rights. We know the Right to Life is taken away by abortion, so all those beautiful children I bet would wonder too...
I think we should be clearer in how we say it?

To the guy who said I should read it and find out:
Clever. And I do read the Bible everyday. Every version of it too.

My main question is not if I believe it otr not it is asking why we say the bible gives us our God given Rights from the Bible. If it is deduced from reading the Bible that this is true, then OK I can agree. But we keep acting like there is one or a few specific places God gives them to us in the Bible. We should be straightforward, thats all.

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Where

Do our rights come from seems to be the thrust of this post, it seems. There are three arguments I hear most commonly. The God Given Rights argument, the Natural Law argument and a utilitarian based argument. Of all these arguments, I tend to favor the God given rights one and the Natural Law one reasonates with me as well, and is verycompatible with the God Given Rights argument.

Utilitarian based arguments are, in my opinion, the least constructive towards liberty, as utilitarian arguments for liberty are that the maximum good for the maximum amount of people is why liberty should be supported, yet this leaves open the possibility that should maximum good come out of violating liberty, then it is perfectly acceptable and just to violate liberty.

It seems that the most reliable arguments in favor of liberty are the God Given Rights argument and the Natural Law argument. Though it is desirable that the maximum good for the maximum amount of people should happen, it would be a fallacy to base the spirit and the letter of law off of utilitarian principles.

RonPaulgirls

you are correct. I know of no place in the Bible where God says Christians have a right to political freedom and liberty.
Personal freedom from satan? YES!
Freedom from fear of what satan can do to us? YES!

The problem for most folks is they think God blessed the US and has some special place in his heart for this country.
They also think that gives us carte blanche to continue the KILLING, STEALING and RAPING we do.
Raping and killing God's planet and his people.
I think that is really blasphemy given our evils over the past two centuries.

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

Free Will

If you remember in Genesis, though God councils Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, he gives them the ability to do so. That is one of the most basic teachings; I remember it being taught in third grade, and I have the memory of a senile alzhiemers patient. Perhaps I am being too harsh since I did attend a Catholic School. If I am being too harsh, I apologize.

God warned Israel...

...in I Samuel 8 about the dangers of moving away from a society of locally-controlled governments (under the judges) to a centralized authority under a king. Among these warnings "He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots...and [he] will set them to ... make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots...And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants." (I Sam 8:11-12,14 NKJV)

I know Dr. Paul has used this passage in describing how the Liberty model of localized government was biblically favored over centralized, authoritarianism. Of course, if God Himself is reigning directly, then that's a different story, from a biblical perspective; but when humans are in charge of the governmental structure and implementation, local control is better.

I think this ties in to the overall picture of God-given rights and a biblical view of the role of government.

Here

http://www.abundantlifecrusades.com/sermons/your_rights.htm

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein

WWHAAS

you're correct. That link did provide the Rights God gave us.
That has NOTHING to do with political freedom and liberty. nothing whatsoever and there is NO reference at the link you provided which says otherwise.
This is also something at that link:

Once we got beyond about the early 1800's, our government and leaders crapped all over anything rmotely God-like in their actions.

America's Spiritual Heritage with the Bill of Rights.
A century and a half before the Bills of Rights was framed, the early colonist adopted the Constitution of the New England Confederation. The document declared its framers' devout faith and steadfast purpose. The proclamation read:
"Whereas, we all came into these parts of America with one and the same end and aim, namely, to advance the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ and to enjoy the liberties of the Gospel in purity and peace."
The little colony of Rhode Island became the first political state in world history to guarantee absolute religious freedom to all faiths. That was in 1644.
Moreover, before the Liberty Bell was hung in Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, in 1752, our Christian patriots directed that this inspired Scripture from Leviticus 25:10 be inscribed thereon: Proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto the inhabitants thereof.
Also, the brave Christian patriots who signed the Declaration of Independence included it in these immortal words: With a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.
At the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin rose to utter these words: ...God governs the affairs of men: and if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? Matthew 10:29
Those men knelt in prayer, and the result was the Bill of Rights, the Magna Carta of our freedom. Faith in God and the Bible is interwoven into the very fabric of our nation's history.
===========================

So in 1644, what did those folks do with the Native Americans they discovered here?
Oh!! sorry, did all that blustering about "guarantee absolute religious freedom to all faiths", just pertain to us "civilized" folk?

So, how many injuns would Jesus have scalped?
Interesting. the Natives were doing ok before we came. I mean they must have been right?
- there were thousands of them
- they didnt hunt God's creations to extinction
- They didnt pollute God's creation to death
- they had food, shelter, etc.

So was God blessing the Native Americans also?
this fascination that the modern Christian Church has with our God blessing this country is sickening. God doesnt bless a country that has done the things we've done. PERIOD.

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

Source of individual freedom

The bible is a historical account of the discovery True Reason. The One God whose attributes are love and freedom. Reason, God, is the only way to receive the blessings of truth, brotherly love and individual freedom - these three attributes are the trinity of power man needs to live just and prosperous.

This gospel broke up the ageless tyrannies that ruled the world with a brutal cycle of build and destroy; kill or be killed. Rule or be ruled. Gang vs gang with the people in the middle.

Reason, Love and Freedom were powers unknown in this stagnant, pagan world and this holy trinity of powers brought security based on a unity of free people who sought truth and love before unknown and now known, would die for it.

The bible teaches that man and woman must be free to serve only the one true God who is Reason. And that you will know true reason if it contains love and freedom. This is the source of freedom. Praise God who is Reason. To know The True Reason is to know The True God.

James

You said - "This gospel broke up the ageless tyrannies that ruled the world with a brutal cycle of build and destroy; kill or be killed. Rule or be ruled. Gang vs gang with the people in the middle."

What on earth are you talking about??

Did you miss whole decades of history?
do you think the British Empire handed out hot chocolate in Asia in order to get India, etc. to go along with being ruled?

How about the Native Americans? didnt the white man "civilize" them and have missionaries involved?

KILL, RAPE, BURN, STEAL, KILL, REPEAT
FASTER AND FASTER.
ALL the while under the banner of the Catholic church or some other version of Christianity.
Currently, it's "Jesus country" KILLING folks from the middle east.

By the way, the God of the Bible doesnt really care if we're free or not. He DOES want our souls saved. But the flesh/carnal man, not so much?

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

True or False

Hi there, may I suggest that perhaps there are 2 versions of Christianity:

a true version

and

a false version

The Bible says that the devil is a deceiver and a liar and a murderer from the beginning.. Wouldn't it makes sense for an evil entity to do evil in the name of good?

Guess who gets slandered and blamed, the good name that the evil has used.

Christianity is a heart change, not a religion. Just because someone believes in the story of Jesus does not mean that they have been born again and are living a new life. Evil powers have done evil things in the name of Christianity. That does not mean that true Christians are doing or endorsing those things.

Perhaps this would be an example: The United States Military has been sent to the Middle East to fight (although not by congress...). While I support our service men for serving our country, I do not endorse or appreciate what is being done in my name as an American. I am an American, I am not killing people in the Middle East, however, it is being done in my name and with my tax dollars. Yes, the money that I send to the IRS is being used in the Middle East and I do not appreciate it.

I realize that is not a perfect analogy because the soldiers are Americans while things done in the "name of Christianity" are not necessarily done by Christians.

Nations cannot be Christian, only people can. People can envoke the name of God but it may not be God they are serving. The Bible says that wolves come in sheeps clothing. The Bible also says by their fruit you will know them. Looke at what is being done and know whether it is the work of a wolf or a sheep...

Jesus is very concerned about our mortal lives. He said that he came to give abundant life. God wants our lives filled with good things. Here are a couple of verses about that:

Jesus speaking about Satan as well as Himself: John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Who comes to kill steal and destroy? The Devil, not true Christians.

God telling us what will grow in our lives when Christ is in us by faith in Him: Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering [patience], gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance [self control]: against such there is no law.

Would someone who is filled with those fruits be a killer and a murderer?

God is very interested in our mortal lives as well as our eternal soul.

Thank you for allowing me to share my viewpoint.

....

SteveMT's picture

Great comment, bear.

"Nations cannot be Christian, only people can" is right. When Nations try to be Christian, we get abominations like this:

The German Nazis were Christian and the German Christians were Nazis
Posted by Greg Laden on September 16, 2010
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/09/16/the-german-nazi...

People killing people in the name of God is the abomination, IMO.

Thanks, I read “Bonhoeffer”

Thanks, I read “Bonhoeffer” by Eric Metaxas last year. While I am not of the Lutheran faith, I was intrigued to see how Hitler marginalized and split the Lutheran Church and reinvented that church for his benefit. Truly, though there were those that remained faithful to Christ, did not follow Hitler, and suffered great consequences.

We have been on vacation so and I left my worries at home so I have not read up on the DP gold link you gave me. I am hoping to get things under control here on the home front and then delve in. Thanks again for your kind comments.

FYI, these guys joined the Revolution because it looked like it would afford religious liberty http://www.mainstreambaptists.org/mbn/Patriots.htm

Are you a pacifist?

bear

You said -
The Bible says that the devil is a deceiver and a liar and a murderer from the beginning.. Wouldn't it makes sense for an evil entity to do evil in the name of good?
Guess who gets slandered and blamed, the good name that the evil has used.
========
I agree. I think satan has led the Christian church in America away from God and can give a few MAJOR examples of this.

You said -
Christianity is a heart change, not a religion. Just because someone believes in the story of Jesus does not mean that they have been born again and are living a new life. Evil powers have done evil things in the name of Christianity. That does not mean that true Christians are doing or endorsing those things.
=============
Agreed. However, IF the Christians know these things are being done and have the power to stop it AND DONT! LIKE WE DO!, then true Christians ARE giving a tacit endorsement of it.

you said -
Perhaps this would be an example: The United States Military has been sent to the Middle East to fight (although not by congress...). While I support our service men for serving our country, I do not endorse or appreciate what is being done in my name as an American. I am an American, I am not killing people in the Middle East, however, it is being done in my name and with my tax dollars. Yes, the money that I send to the IRS is being used in the Middle East and I do not appreciate it.
I realize that is not a perfect analogy because the soldiers are Americans while things done in the "name of Christianity" are not necessarily done by Christians.
Nations cannot be Christian, only people can.
==========
I agree and this is why I am so sick of people talking about God blessing the USA and all this trype. God may have blessed us at some time, but it was before the mid-1800s.
I believe the middle-east was a field white unto harvest and the USA has taken tanks and bulldozed the wheat. that mission opportunity to save probably a million Muslim souls is GONE!!! And yet what do our stupid church ushers pray for most Sundays? "Protect our troops and those in harms way for our freedom". what BUNK!!! what blasphemy!!
===============
You said -
People can envoke the name of God but it may not be God they are serving. The Bible says that wolves come in sheeps clothing. The Bible also says by their fruit you will know them. Looke at what is being done and know whether it is the work of a wolf or a sheep...
============
Agreed. And some preachers in this country better grow a set use the discerning spirit they SHOULD have if their living as they should be and begin preaching the gospel of Love that Christ delivered instead of the Gospel of Neocon written in the books of cheney, Rumsfeld and bush II
===========
You said -
Jesus is very concerned about our mortal lives. He said that he came to give abundant life. God wants our lives filled with good things. Here are a couple of verses about that:
Jesus speaking about Satan as well as Himself: John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Who comes to kill steal and destroy? The Devil, not true Christians.
God telling us what will grow in our lives when Christ is in us by faith in Him: Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering [patience], gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance [self control]: against such there is no law.
==========
Christ never mentioned about us having "good things". He mentioned abundant life. this is the joy of knowing him and living a Christ-centered life. for cryin out loud bear, he allowed Paul to be in jail for how long and Israel was in slavery for 400 years!!!
How many of his disciples and close followers were put to death?
you seriously think he'll babysit any of us for any amount of time as rotten a country and church as we are?

you said -
God is very interested in our mortal lives as well as our eternal soul.
===============
Hes not interested in our mortal lives in the way Libertarians think he is. He wants us free and enjoying liberty. Is that something he's gonna go out of his way to ensure??
NO!! NO!! NO!!

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

Thank You!

Points well taken! Clarification, when I said God wants our lives filled with good things, I was speaking of the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance which yield an abundant life. By abundant, I am not speaking of wealth, but those things that money cannot buy and which can still be experienced in the darkest days of suffering. I was deficient in summarizing that point sufficiently to close the loop and clarify the meanings of those words. I appreciate you bringing that to my attention. I would like to reply more fully later. I am going to be out of pocket a few days and must sign off now.

bear, you may be interested in reading...

... and commenting on what I wrote here:

http://www.dailypaul.com/241848/i-am-confused-is-mormonism-c...

Thank you and God bless.

A Constitutional, Christian conservative who voted for Ron and stands with Rand

Reply

Source of Freedom

Mr anonymous,I'm talking about the source of freedom. I say Reason, Love and Freedom were unknown powers until revealed by the Gospel. From the beginning of time, no man was free in the world. The very idea of sovereign man was alien. The King, Monarch, Mullah, Gang Leader, etc., owned you and all the land. Man heard the Good News that he should be free to worship only one God. He learned of a God that you could make no image of. A God that promised Freedom, Brotherly Love and Reason to know the Truth.

The British Empire occupied India and other countries by force and like all tyrannies they were finally ended by the Free People who were united by the Gospel: Reason, Love and Freedom. The Good News that united the people and finally brought down the brutes of the world was only heard in the church and this unity to fight for the right is the source of freedom.

The church today is a shadow of its former self. Its freewill mission of helping the poor and uniting the free people against resurgent tyranny has been been taken away by force. The brutes have gutted the church by replacing charity, love, with the welfare state - forced charity - and denying Reason and Freedom.

Down through the ages we only heard about the isolated corruptions endured by the church and not the daily good that the church does. Most importantly, the church provided the grounds to unify and fight the evil of using force to get what you want - the brutes. And so they did. And Reason, Love and Freedom prevailed. And so you enjoy God's blessings in this modern age and they are: Science/Reason, Rational Love and Individual Freedom.

Lo, Evil is resurgent. We must re-unite with the God the Trinity: Reason, Love and Freedom, and once again battle to keep our personal sovereignty so that we serve only One God, Who is Reason, so that we might have the blessings of Love and Freedom.

I was unaware...

I was unaware that you were given permission to speak for God.

Love of God , Love of Country, Love of family, Love of Life, Love of Liberty. I would take a bullet for this man.

Source of Our Freedom

Mr. i842much, I don't believe I was speaking for God. I do believe he would give me permission to praise his name: Reason, Love and Freedom, commonly known as the Trinity.

This is the source of our modern life and now that you know, you can unite and fight alongside the free people against all tyrants who would initiate force to get what they want.

SteveMT's picture

I say this as kindly as possible.

You mention the words "Reason and True Reason" throughout your thoughtfully written post. For me, and I'll say that again, for me, I found true reason in another book called The Age of Reason. Thomas Paine's book has been my source of "individual freedom." His true reason as set down in that book is inescapable. Although the reading of that work did create much turmoil in my life, I eventually arrived at what I believe to be a closer relationship with God than I had had before reading it. My personal belief system was changed, I believe, for the better, but again the key words are "my and I believe." I'm not writing this to change anyone's religion or to put down what anyone believes. I am only relating one of few experiences that everyone has had in their lives that are truly "life changing events." Reading The Age of Reason was a life changing event for me.
Peace.

Malachi 3:6a "For I am the LORD, I change not;"

Examples of the right to life and liberty are scattered through the Bible (King James Version).

Liberty involves the right to choose. The LORD gave Adam and Eve free will, or the right to choose. They made a wrong choice and we live with the consequences daily. Joshua 24:15 contains the phrase: "choose you this day whom you will serve." Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:."

In Exodus 20, God's commandments make clear that murdering, lying, and stealing, among other things, is wrong.

Examples of the right to life can be seen in the book of Esther. When Haman plotted to have a law decreed that all the Jews were to be slaughtered on a certain day, Esther came before her husband, the king, and asked that the law be repealed. He informed her that he could not change the existing law but could issue a new law which is explained in Esther 8:11 "Wherein the king granted the Jews which were in every city to gather themselves together, and to stand for their life, to destroy, to slay, and to cause to perish, all the power of the people and province that would assault them, both little ones and women and to take the spoil of them for a prey."

Jesus, himself, gives some peculiar instructions to his disciples shortly before he was crucified. Luke 22:36 "And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Jesus didn't elaborate on these statements but the sword is a weapon and selling your garment to get one seems to imply urgency.

Although the Bill of Rights isn't directly found in the Scripture, I believe the priciples they represent are. I welcome any responses.

Adam and Eve were given the

Adam and Eve were given the right to choose. God put an apple there. He knew they would eat it, because he knows everything. They ate it. As a result, every human from that point on has inherited their punishment, and hundreds of billions of people are being tortured and burned in the giant reeducation camp known as hell which God built. We now have hereditary and endless torture for an entire species because of the minor crime of breaking an arbitrary and pointless law which is even dumber than a law against selling raw milk. They ate an apple they weren't supposed to. wow.

However this act of civil disobediance commited by two individuals who have been dead for thousands of years carried a sentence that every individual, innocent of the crime in question has to suffer. Worse, Christians consider God "loving" and "merciful" because he allows a small fraction of us a ticket out of his concentration camp if we will grovel and kiss his feet.

This is the greatest example of cruel and unusual punishment in the entire history of human mythology. It makes the story of Promethes look like a Blue's Clues. Any being who would do this can be nothing if not ultimate maelvolent evil. The monsters who concocted this faith clearly were designing it to terrify peasants into utter and blind slavery in order to keep themselves (those who had the power to forgive your sins and decide wether you went to paradise or the burning pit of hell) in power.

God has nothing to do with freedom. His freedom is simply, my way or hell. That is a long way from free will. The concept of religeon represents bowing to higher authority. It represents never questioning your betters and accepting that you are a worthless serf who belongs to the state. You need to spend your life making up for your inherant evil by sacrificing to the glory of the church/state/king, whatever.

Wake up. Free will does not mean you have choices, but if you make any choice but the one I want you to make, ill set you on fire. That is tyranny and enslavment. Free will means you are open to persue your own path without others trying to coerse you to go the way they wish with threats of torture and harm to your person. Those consequences you reap are your own doing, they are not imposed by tyrants unless you've violated someone else's rights. Only a handful of the things God sends you to his torture camp for involve violating other's rights. In all cases, the punishment for these crimes is cruel and unusual and vastly outweighs the gravity of the crime. I can think of very few things you can do in 60-80 years of mortal life that justify trillions of years of torture and suffering.

Boiled down to its utterly basic concept, free will is a good basis for government. Do what you want but don't try to pass the consequences onto others. But you can get this concept from many sources without the inconsistancies, cruelty, bigotry and overwhelming model of monarchy which the bible comes attached with.

I've been following your posts with interest on this thread

and to answer a question you posed in a previous post, there are Christians (like me) who don't believe in "Hell". It just makes no sense to me.

God never mentioned "Hell" as punishment to Adam and Eve, (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&versio...), or Cain (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+4&versio...), Sodom and Gomorrah? No mention of eternal damnation - punishment, yes (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+18&versi...), so it seems to me God would've mentioned the eternal torture chamber at some point, that he would've warned us but he didn't mention it at all.

So where does the notion of Hell come from? I think it comes from a mistranslation of the Bible.

"We first begin by eliminating the problem the King James Version of the Bible introduced to this study by indiscriminately translating three different words in the Bible as hell: sheol, hades, and gehenna.
In the Old Testament, the word for which hell is given in the King James Version is sheol, a word whose root meaning is “unseen.” The King James Version translates sheol as “hell” 31 times, “the grave” 31 times (since someone in the grave is unseen), and “the pit” three times.
Yet in the Old Testament sheol was not exclusively a place of punishment, for faithful Jacob was there (Gen. 37.35, 42.38, 44.29, 31). Righteous Job also longed for it in Job 14.13. David spoke of going to sheol in Ps. 49.15 and Jesus went there, Ps. 16.10 and Acts 2.24-31. In all these cases, these men were “unseen” because they were dead.
The New Testament equivalent of sheol is hades, which occurs only eleven times. Like its synonym sheol, the King James Version translates the word “hell.” However, the correct translation is hades, or the unseen. The Bible doesn’t use hades exclusively for a place of punishment. Luke 16 pictures righteous Lazarus there. Acts 2.27, 31 says Jesus went there. In I Cor. 15.15, Paul used the same word when he said, “O grave, where is thy victory?” In Rev. 1.18, Jesus said he had the controlling keys of death and hades, the unseen, and in Rev. 6.8, death and hades followed the pale horse. Finally, in Rev. 20.13, 14, death and hades gave up the dead that were in them, and were then cast into the lake of fire. These verses illustrate that hades refers to anything that is unseen.
Gehenna, the word hell is given for in the New Testament, is rooted in an Old Testament location. It is generally regarded as derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. Scholars say the word is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a valley that had a long history in the Old Testament, all of it bad. Hence, Gehenna is a proper name like the Rio Grande Valley of Texas and New Mexico. This being true, the word should never have been translated “hell,” for as we’ll see, the two words have nothing in common.
Tartarus Is Also Translated Hell In the King James Version
In II Pet. 2.4, we read:
For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness who were being punished when II Peter was written, to show that God knew how to treat disobedience among angels. It says nothing about fire, torment, pain, punishment of anyone else, or that it will last forever. It simply doesn’t pertain to our subject.

Where Did the Concept of Endless Torment Originate?

As we’ve seen, it most certainly did not originate in the Old Testament, either before or during the Mosaic Law. A great deal of evidence (more than we’ll give here) suggests that it originated in Egypt, and the concept was widespread in the religious world. Augustine, commenting on the purpose of such doctrines, said:

This seems to have been done on no other account, but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to deceive the people in their religion; princes, under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves knew to be idle fables; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society. (Augustine, City of God, Book IV, p. 32, cited by Thayer, Origin & History, p. 37.)

Contriving doctrines to control people? Who would have believed it? Well, the Greek world did, the Roman world did, and evidently between the testaments, the Jews got involved, as well, as the concept of endless torment began appearing in the apocryphal books written by Egyptian Jews."

Jesus' Teaching on Hell
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

Honest Questions and Answers About Hell
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal.htm

What the Hell is Hell?
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/FromHellsEternalDeath.htm

If don't believe God justly judges, you can't ask for His mercy

The Son of God didn't come down and die on a cross to save you from nothing.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Jesus died on a cross

to save us from death and give us eternal life. I believe God loves us too deeply to condemn us to eternal torture. I try my best to follow Christ and ask forgiveness (and mercy) when I mess up(and I do - a lot)because I love Him, not because I'm afraid of Hell. I think God judges justly and administers His punishments temporally. In Exodus 20 (The Ten Commandments) through Exodus 23 God plainly gives the punishments for sins and not once does he mention eternal torture, seems like He would've brought it up. Hell isn't something I concern myself with at all, I think the real issue here is that of the heart. Only corrupt hearts need to be motivated by threat of a penalty in order to do right.

Romans 6:20

20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus died on a cross because

Jesus died on a cross because some totalitarian @#$holes nailed him to it and left him there until he was dead. Im sorry but this whole saddling of every human since with guilt because some guy supposedly died for a good cause is the kind of nonsense governments and other corrupt power structures love to propogate.

I was not born evil. My children were not born evil. We do not need to appologise to anyone for being born. The Christian above who doesn't beleive in Hell is the only sort of Christian that makes any sense. The rest of you are living in a contradiction and worshiping a "God" who runs a kingdom on coersion and fear. Its a farse and it trains people to believe in top down systems of authoratrian control.

John Witherspoon, one of the

John Witherspoon, one of the founding fathers, wrote a couple of sermons on this topic.

Here is one:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/100280040/John-Witherspoon-All-Man...

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Yet

We still live. It is by man's design that torture, war and suffering are happening. Mankind was given council not to sin, yet continue to sin. It is not due to God that we continue to wage war, nor is it due to God. In case you were unaware, Jesus spread the message of forgiveness.

As far as your screed against monarchy, the monarchies were much less centralized than modern governments. I would venture to say that I would choose a religious monarchy over the sickening secular temporal rule that is the modern world. For all of its shortcomings, the monarchs that you in your ignorance attribute as the only result of the bible, ignoring examples such as Poland that had an aristocratic Republic, were much more decentralized than the modern state.

Think about what you say. The twentieth century saw few wars done in the name of God. Hitler did not exterminate people in the name of God, but in the name of nationalism, Stalin and Mao in the name of the people and equality,neocons in the name of "spreading democracy" progressives such as Woodrow Wilson for "peace" went to war.

Would you care to expand on your accusations of bigotry? I cannot think of anything more bigoted than the pathetic governments that now exist, all of which happen to be secular. This is not to say that all secularlist are violent, but rather to counter your ramblings about the bible being the source of oppression, political tyranny and bigotry.

Paradise Lost

I stumbled across your post and wanted to provide a competitive point of view that I worked on earlier this month regarding PARADISE LOST and ORIGINAL SIN:

I am seeing 3 categories at this point.

1) When Satan lifted himself up to be God:
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

At some point pre-creation of man Satan, a created being, the most beautiful and preeminent angel, deceived himself such that he would lift himself up against and rival God. Satan was created with the knowledge of good and evil and had the capacity to choose evil. ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/ezekiel/passage.aspx?q=ez... )
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2) Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. They were created innocent. In my opinion, not only did Satan decide to steal God’s creation, he decided that man should be made in his own image instead of Gods. The direct command was not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Satan beguiled Eve and she took of that fruit.
Then they played the blame game: Genesis 3:11 And he [God] said , Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat ? 12 And the man said , The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat . 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done ? And the woman said , The serpent beguiled me , and I did eat .

3) Sin was passed to all of mankind thru the Seed of man. Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come . 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.16 And not as it was by one that sinned , so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.20 Moreover the law entered , that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

So with the above verses from Romans 5 we see that Adams sin was passed down to all men However, Jesus was not born of Adam. Jesus was born of a virgin and the Holy Spirit so the seed of Adam did not create Jesus, but rather the Seed of God. And that sounds ridiculous, but God alone is Sovereign. Luke was a medical doctor so I am giving his quote here. Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

It is important to note that God did not send Jesus to condemn us, but we are in a state of condemnation. God did not send some innocent man to die for humanity. God himself took on flesh and died for humanity. God offers a free gift. Something for nothing. Like the power resident in the sun and the sun panels to generate electricity. However, those sun panels don’t just pop up on a roof all by themselves. One must exercise faith that it would be profitable to make an investment to purchase those panels. God’s purchase price for redemptions free gift is simple trust. Trust that God has done what he says he has done. John 3: 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved .18He that believeth on him is not condemned : but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Satan was the original sinner, but it was not his Seed that entered man. It was Adams Seed that was passed onto each and every birth in the human race. That is evidenced by the proclivity for human nature to do wrong. A child must be taught not to hit and to share and not to lie.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Satan is still about the work of deception. The Bible says he was a liar from the beginning. I would couple lying and deceiving together because the absence of truth is used to deceive. Hath God said…

Now as far as a monopoly on knowledge. God walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening in the garden. God is Truth (and much more). Adam and Eve had full access to truth but were in the state of innocence.

Now that we have the knowledge of good and evil I would surmise that perhaps now we must deal with wondering what is the truth and what is a lie and who stands for what.

Jesus speaking of the Holy Spirit:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come , he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear , that shall he speak : and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

When one is born again, the Holy Spirit comes into abide. The Bible says the Holy Spirit is like earnest money until the final day of redemption. Ephesians 1:13 In whom [Jesus] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed , ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Satan wanted to be God and wanted God’s creation for nefarious (very wicked; villainous; iniquitous) reasons. Look what he did to Adam and Eve. He stole their innocence and then he stole their children. How would you like one of your children to murder the other child? How would you like to have a child wicked enough to murder a sibling? How much would that hurt? I would hurt both for the wicked child and for the innocent victim. Why would Satan want to be the perpetrator of such evil? I suppose that is why Jesus said John 8:44 … He [Satan] was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I suppose that if no truth is in him what is in him are lies and deception.

II Corinthians 4:3&4 But if our gospel be hid , it is hid to them that are lost : In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

God is not a monopoly, but the competition pales in comparison, and is in direct opposition and resorts to lies and deceit.

Bravo. Excellent post.

Bravo. Excellent post. Everything you've written is true and none of it is supernatural. God's will creates every cause and effect necessary for his will to be done here just as it is in heaven. Jesus was preordained from the beginning as was everything necessary for the virgin birth.
Satan in trying to raise himself up above God has lowered himself down to nothingness, hence the reason he is a snake that slithers on the ground. Jesus destroyed the serpent but it is too deluded and prideful to accept it and so it continues to drive itself toward nothingness in its crazy attempt to rise above God. The desire for immortality being an example of that very dangerous drive, one that will only lead to a real and long lasting hell. Satan is also metaphorical and human sin is Satan's slave in everyone who is not willing to lose himself in absolute humility so he can find himself through faith.

two very good post

good job guys.