28 votes

"Our God Given Rights" Where in the Bible does God give?

I agree we have em, but I don't really have the reference to back it up... Anyone?

Chapter, verse, and version of Bible please

I have a B.A. in theology, maybe Im missing it?

Just wondering what everyone is usually referring to when they mention God Given Rights. We know the Right to Life is taken away by abortion, so all those beautiful children I bet would wonder too...
I think we should be clearer in how we say it?

To the guy who said I should read it and find out:
Clever. And I do read the Bible everyday. Every version of it too.

My main question is not if I believe it otr not it is asking why we say the bible gives us our God given Rights from the Bible. If it is deduced from reading the Bible that this is true, then OK I can agree. But we keep acting like there is one or a few specific places God gives them to us in the Bible. We should be straightforward, thats all.

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Does your country feel lucky.

Droughts,fires, higher taxes, housing collapse, high unemployment higher food prices,massive crop failures financial coming collapse.Gas will be going up twenty more cents by next week.Got to make gasohol with whats left with corn. We simply need a good case of famine to go with it.Lions and tigers and bears .OH MY. A country can only fall by two ways.One by sword. One buy debt.Pretty easy to figure out which one by now.Its up to humans to fix it.Right.I believe mighty mouse would come to the rescue first.

Money talks and dogs bark

Huh?

Your comment has exactly what to do with mine?

God given rights come from Ten Commandments applied to State

Obviously , the founders used the 10 commandments as a template to write the Bill of Rights. But they applied it to the state. The state was told : You cannot kill the citizens, you must let them assemble, you must not make yourself God over the citizens, you cannot make a god(idol) over the citizens, you cannot steal from the citizens, you cannot take away or lust the mates, papers, fields, farms, animals, employees, companies, or anything that belongs to a citizen cause that is stealing. You cannot bear false witness against the citizens, you cannot cheat the citizens(steal), you cannot put high bonds on the citizens (stealing), you must honor parents of children and their wishes for their children( no lust or stealing), You must allow parents to speak(free speech/honor parents), people have a right to take one day off from work (right to assemble), the laws of the city, county, state and Federal government cannot be mixed together (no adultery/adulterating), Laws of other countries cannot be mixed with US laws (no adultery/adulterating), you shall have fair courts with citizen juries (no bearing false witness against neighbor(citizens).

Rights in the Bible

Life - "Thou shalt not murder"

Liberty - God gave us free will. If the perfect Creator of the universe did not impose restrictions on His creation, surely it is not okay for fallible man to do it to his fellow man.

Pursuit of happiness - Goes back to "liberty". God allows us to choose our own path even if it is not best.

Property - "Thou shalt not steal"

Etc, etc

“It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till." -J.R.R. Tolkien

Blessed is the nation whose God is Lord

Psalm93;12
If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves,and pray and seek My face,and turn from their wicked ways,then I will hear from heaven,and forgive their sin and heal their land.I believe God is still waiting for a call from America.

Money talks and dogs bark

the "IF" & "Then" in 2Chronicles 7:14.

+1, thanks for quoting this verse, its important & now so relevant. A correction in verse number is required, Psalms 93 has only 5 verses, and they do not contain the words you quoted. The correct verse number is 2Chronicles 7:14. It has been posted on DP before.

You will notice the first word of the verse is "IF". That means there is a condition, or qualification is emphasized right at the beginning,=
= "Called by My Name".

2nd condition, = be humble & amend, "then" you will be heard.

When "God given rights" are refered to in a governmental

context, I think reference is drawn more from the Declaration of Independence, than from the Bible.

The first few lines of the Declaration of Independence are:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,......"

This establishes the idea that these truths are "self evident", in other words not based on religous text but more on common sense. If they had wanted to establish a Christian Theocracy (a government specifically based on the Christian Bible) they might have looked for a religious reference to back up whatever they were saying. These were very learned men. But they were acknowledging with this document, a philosophical agreement in principal and in common between the men who gathered to sign it.

It goes back thousands of

It goes back thousands of years, so seems self evident. Locke Mentions it, Blackstone mentions is, Aquinas mentions it, we even had someone post for the 4th of July that Jefferson's Italian neighbor wrote a published paper on it before the Declaration was written with the sources.
http://www.nlnrac.org/classical/aquinas

The ideas in the Declaration of Independence aren't new. It was formed by a committee of five. Parts of are like other revolution documents printed before it. The last paragraph is from Lee's resolution in congress. (etc).

What is new is that it was used as justification for a country's independence, and in particular ours. That's what's new - not the ideas but the use in our history.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

What I was trying to get across was that, while there may be no

place in the Christian Bible where God says "Hey. I'm God. These are your God given rights from me. And your government better let you have them. Or else."

There are rights commonly refered to as "God given" or "endowed by our Creator" rights mentioned in the Declaration.

And while the Declaration of Independence is of course not a document comparing to the Constitution, it still serves to explain where our founding fathers were coming from and what assumptions they had regarding God given rights.

Poster had it right below in

Poster had it right below in this thread.

Rights are just an extension of wrongs and wronging other people, which the Bible does go into quite a bit.

You shall not murder - you have a right to life.
You shall not steal - you have a right to your property,

etc

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

http://beaglescout.wordpress.

http://beaglescout.wordpress.com/2009/05/07/blackstone-on-li...

This is from Blackstone, which does mention God, and sounds a lot like the Declaration in its way.

My point was - first - if I keep posting links and getting people curious, they'll start looking things up themselves - objective look at history and where things came from. I never looked up anything when I was younger either.

Two - common law was developed over a long time, and mentions God in connection to rights like the above. It is self evident, but it was also what was commonly accepted.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

The way I understand it as

The way I understand it as God created natural law, or its existence is a priori - hence its name and Dr. Paul making similar statements in his stump speeches.

We are bound to following natural law and it is the only law required for society to function. Other than the restrictions on actions by natural law, people are free to act. That is the God given freedom.

Any laws beyond the natural laws are the laws of man and the laws of man, despite good intentions, take away from this God given freedom.

Every version I'm impressed

King James Version (KJV)
New International Version (NIV)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
New King James Version (NKJV)
English Standard Version (ESV)
New Living Translation (NLT)
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
New Century Version (NCV)
New English Bible (NEB)
American Standard Version (ASV)
Good News Bible (GNB) / Today’s English Version (TEV)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Today’s New International Version (TNIV)
New English Translation (NET)
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Contemporary English Version (CEV)
God’s Word Translation (GW)
New International Readers Version (NIrV)
Easy-To-Read Version (ERV)
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Bible in Basic English (BBE)
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
World English Bible (WEB)
Revised English Bible (REB)
Jerusalem Bible (JB)
New American Bible (NAB)
The Living Bible (TLB)
The Message (MSG)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
The Bishops' Bible
Douay-Rheims Version (DRV)
Tyndale Bible

That's a whole lot of reading.

November 6th 2012 I voted for Dr.Ron Paul
"We must remember, elections are short-term efforts. Revolutions are long-term projects." ~ Ron Paul

Revelation 1:8 Alpha and the Omega

Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

That's quiet a grasp and insight to a language Jesus couldn't speak.

The Monarchs and Christian rulers of Europe have been demonised by the followers of the one book that should be irrelevant but unfortunately isn't. The Talmud.

Interview with John Alan Martinson Jr. – ‘The Jewish Problem and Monarchy’

http://www.jewishproblem.com/new-interview-with-john-alan-ma...

Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5

This comment is not going to

This comment is not going to be popular, im sure i'll get "troll" and who knows what, esspecially considering I do not often post (I had to get an email to get my password). Don't get me wrong; Im glad you all are free to believe what you wish, and Christians are the best allies ive got in the fight for freedom. That said; Ive never seen so many people try to explain that which is not there with so many stretches and rationalisations. Most of the scriptures posted have almost nothing to do with our natural rights.

If natural rights can be found anywhere in the bible, its in the concept of "Free Will" as Jefferson so brilliantly framed the Constitution as "biblical" with, to satisfy the evangelicals.

There is one major thing I will never be able to reconcile with this faith. All of us libertarians want to be free of the opressive yolk of over-large collectivist government. We resent would-be dictators trying to run our lives and tell us what to do. We resent monarchy in general and believe in representative Republics based on natural rights. Thats why Christian libertarians make 0 sense to me.

The bible's entire text outlines a celestial monarchy. If God was a man, not one person on this site would support him or follow him. We'd all call him a ruthless tyrant and seek his overthrow and destruction. God's "Kingdom" is a top down system whereapon a ruthless megalomaniac King demands utter and complete obediance under pain of destruction from his lowley groveling peasants. The peasants are considered inferior and have to appologise simply for being born. They get no vote, no say in their laws or representives. They have no rights. Any who don't agree are destroyed. Any who do not submit and worship the King will be tortured and burned to death. Then, to put throw salt in the wound, they are told it's their own fault that they are being tortured and killed because they "choose" not to submit to their all-knowing ruler.

Thats like calling taxes "voluntary."

The coup de grace? The King "loves" all his peasants so much that he let the prince get killed to proove it. Like all typical dictators, the bible constantly reminds you just how much the King has sacrificed for his beloved peasants, even as the system strips them or rights, dignity and freedom.

There's only one reason people who would never submit to a human with the exact same characteristics, will submit to a "God" with them. Its the level of power. You resist when resistance seems possible, and submit when it doesn't, in order to survive. For true believers, resistance against God is just silly. How can you possibly outwit the all-powerful, all seeing, and immortal God? He's the ultimate Orwelleon nightmare, always watching, always judging, inescapable and has the ultimate forms of torture/reward at his fingertips. The fact that people will worship God is the ultimate incentive for dictators. They know that if they can just put "enough" fear and hopelessness into you, you'll become a groveling peasant who says its "good" when you are asked to submit; That you "deserved" it when you are tortured for disobediance. But you won't just say it... you'll believe it. The brain will actually rebel against reason to survive. Just look at the mindless sheep in N. Korea who worship their dictator like a God. His level of control and fear is so absolute that the peasants there probably really "do" love him and idolize him... and they will until something snaps.

Why does humanity continiously fall back into monarchy and enslavment? Because we are trained from birth to go on "faith" and submit to dictators. Its in our very bones thanks to religeon. Faith is the soil upon which all other myths take root. We will never have liberty so long as people live their lives in submission to a cosmic monarchy ruled by fear and intollerance.

You don't need a "God" to be moral and just. To say you do is like saying you need a law to keep you from smoking crack. As a species we will never reject monarchy until we reject it in all forms, celestial & earthly.

Others have argued better than I...

However, I have just one question: Do you support Dr. Paul or not? Please remember, he is one of those whom you have termed "Christian libertarians."

When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. - Patrick Henry

That I view Christian

That I view Christian Libertarians as a walking oxymoron doesn't mean I don't think they exist. There's tons of them, Ron Paul included.

That said; yes im a huge Ron Paul fan! Ron Paul's earthy views line up nearly 100% with my own. I can't think of one thing I differ with him on. His spiritual views are not my business, and I certainly don't have to agree or disagree with them to recognise his quality as a human, and his worthyness to be the messenger of liberty. Or yours or every other libertarian crusader taking it to the man in this battle for freedom.

As I said, Christians are my greatest allies in the fight for freedom. I think he, like most other people on earth suffer a crippling delusion in reguards to what happens when you die, but I don't hold it against him as he doesn't hold it over me. I fully endorse his (and your) ability to believe in whatever you wish. Infact, I wouldn't dare say otherwise. Want a UFO cult? Have at it. Want to believe im a filthy sinner who will burn for eternity when I check out of this life because I don't bend my knee and worship a small minded dictator who tortures anyone who won't grovel at his divine feet? That's your choice. Want to believe my little girls were born as filthy, evil sinners too because some jerk in a funny hat didn't poor water over their heads and say some spooky language? Go for it, but you're an @#$hole. Want to use the force of government to shove your belief system down my throat? Its going to get ugly.

Fortunatly the human brain allows people to wear the turniqutte of faith and compartmentalise the gross hypocracy of worshipping a cosmic tyrant and still fight for free libertarian society here on earth via an amazing ability for the mind to compartmentalize incompatable views. The mnemonic kill-switch I refered to earlier.

I am somewhat hostile to the concept of religeon because I believe it is the lynch-pin of our species' enslavment. It breeds intollerance, division and hate for "outsiders," and ingrains the acceptance of monarchy as our default way of organizing. Early training in faith ingrains people to accept illogical ideas as fact dispite reason. At best, it is a morale compass (if don't count all the horrible crap it teaches) for those who need it, at worse, it is an instrument that can brainwash and mobilize entire populations to go and commit horrible atrocities upon other populations who have differant belief systems... and feel justified in doing it.

However, in no way do I hold it against the people who believe in it. Its true, I think most Christians them are victims to early indoctrination, and will probably never be what they could have been if their minds were set free from "faith." I also think that a lot of good comes out of Christianity. Here are a people who at least understand that stealing and murder are wrong (at least the Libertarian ones.) Infact I think some people "need" religeon to hold themselves together.

In the end, its a torniquette. It can save your life, but it will leave you mentally crippled in one way or another. In either case, I respect Christian Libertarians and am friends with many. Anyone fighting for freedom is a friend of mine, and I rarley bring up faith at all, or debait it.

unrelated, but relivant:

If you think this is "mean" of me to express my opinion that I think Dr. Paul's religeous views are counter intuitive to his earthly views, I would counter that ive heard a lot worse insults against Dr. Paul on this forum. If I were a near perfect messenger for the Liberty movment and had been sacrificing for 30 years to save America, id be a little put out when a bunch of parnoid jerks started insulting my beloved child and dragging his name and motivations through the mud because they are incapable of understanding the need for strategy.

Its amazing to me that a bunch of people who have only been into Liberty for a relativly short period of time (on average) somehow think they are more "pure" than Rand Paul whose been steaped in liberty his entire life, and who learned from the master. Especially when just about every one of us who made it to be a delegate stood before the Neocon horde and lied through our teeth, saying we'd support Romney if he was the nomine. Its what we had to do to get into a position of power so we could dismantle that power. You think Rand isn't wise enough to do the same thing in case his father fails? If we were all as pure as Ron Paul, we wouldn't have gotten a fraction of the delegates we did. If we had time to slowly grow our movment and overtake the Neocons with numbers, while maintaining complete purity, then the situation wouldn't be dire enough to wake most of us up in the first place, so you can see the circular argument. Time is a luxury we don't have. The collapse is coming, the bank is up for vote next year. We need to get into position to take it down before we loose the chance. Rand is doing what he must to get the Neocons to vote him in so he can dismantle their power. Ron may still win, but since we can't know for sure, it pays to have a plan B.

Let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone. Rand Paul deserves the benifit of the doubt, and anyone bashing him should shut their mouths and show a little restraint in respect for his father who is READING this website. If people were saying this crap about my children, I can say I would be pretty unenthusiastic about devoting my time to helping them.

In my view you're opinions

In my view you're opinions about God and religion come from a small vocal minority whose self-righteousness has blinded them. I see no Hobbesian tyrant because if there was humans would be automatons locked down under the most oppressive and controlling conditions imaginable. That is not what I perceive at all and to the contrary the misuse of abundant human freedom is what causes the majority of human suffering. As far as judging other people goes Matt 7:1-6 undermines any Christian who is self righteously judging a person who does not actually want their advice and help. As a person already pointed out in this thread if we were given free will then it is not ours to forcefully attempt to overrule in others, unless that ideal is being broken by them. In reality attempting to do that is an absolute impossibility when it comes to peoples thinking anyway, so it is futile to try and force someone to change their views. The right thing to do is try to set a good example, do unto others as we would want them to do to us and minimize the damage that people who infringe on others free will can do, nothing more or less. That is if someone really wants to follow the example set by Jesus. I doubt there are very many rational atheists that would disagree with that.

Self-righteousness would be

Self-righteousness would be me beliving my views were sanctioned by a diety, and smugly going through life believing that paradise awaits me, whilst everyone who disagrees with me gets shoveled into a lake of fire. I don't particularly care if you adopt my views, and im certainly not going to tell my chosen celestial representative to nuke you if you don't (and I would consider it a petty dirt-bag if it did).

Blind would be me not being able to see completely obvious facts because of dogma. Things such considering the N. Korean dictator a monster because he throws tons of people into torture chamber/prison camps when they displease him while at the same time, considering another "ruler" to be loving and merciful because he spares a small % of his subjects from the torture chamber/prison that HE created if they properly worship him. I can't even think of a bigger contradiction in ideals existing in one mind at the same time, and you have to be blind not to see it.

Are my views part of a vocal minority? I suppose, though I don't know how "vocal" people like me are. In general we just shake our heads when someone starts going on about their prefered mythology and think to ourselves "whatever floats your boat."

There are two reasons you see no Hobbesian tyrant when you read the bible. First you're mind is able to completely block the logic you use in day to day life, keeping it seperate from your religeous views so that the two never conflict. This is called
"compartmentalisation." This is how someone devoted to two diametrically opposed views such as Libertarianism and Christianity can maintain the spectacular irationality and inconsistancy required to be unable to see that if God was a human you'd want his regime toppled, while maintaining the reason and logic needed to go to work and do your job.

Its also why you can point out a thousand ridiculous and laughable holes in everyone else's mythology, but see exactly 0 flaws in your own. How silly do Zeus and Apolo seem these days? How crazy do those mormons seem? Yet all through history, no matter how crazy the belief system seems to us today, there were people who believed every word of it as readly as Christians today accept their own myths.

Reason 2 is because you don't get sent to a flaming pit to burn for eternity until "after" you die. Out of sight, out of mind. Here on earth, it seems like a free-for-all where vile people like me can do hideous things like live normal lives, raise our children, cope with the curve balls life sends at us, run businesses and fight for freedom in our spare time... all the while, "not" choosing to believe in, or submit to a cosmic monarchy in the sky. But don't worry, we'll get ours when we die! That's when 99% or so of your fellow men women and children who didn't properly kiss divine ass get banished to torment until the end of time. Im sure God feels bad, but hey... we had free will.

The IRS also practices this sort of free will. You don't "have" to pay your taxes, its completely voluntary. The IRS loves you and will be sad when you throw yourself into prison because you choose to be wicked and not pay your debt to the Federal Reserve, its your fault. Sure they could simply "not" throw you in prison, but then you wouldn't have free will.

What I wonder is, will those who were "saved" feel like nazi concentration camp guards looking down at the hundreds of billions of human lives suffering in anguish because they didn't make the grade according to their "loving" God? It might look something more like a tyranny then... But hey, those people are all evil, sorta like Ghandi.

If you looked at your faith with the same reason and criticle thinking as you view politics, you'd have no trouble identifying the same qualities in "God" as we see in the worst of human dictators. Constant surviellance, ruthless demand for obediance and fielty. Merciless erradication of any who threaten, object or interfier with the system, propoganda designed to cause feelings of guilt and inferiority of the individual to the state. Its all there, but you have to take the blinders off. Seeing as you thnk im the blind one however, this is a dead horse not worth beating.

But your view of "free-will" is the crux of all this, and the biggest reason I find Libertarian Christians to be such an strange mix.

You said that the misuse of freedom is the main cause human suffering? See because I thought it was collectivist tyranny concocted by the global central banks depriving free humanity of our life liberty and property, and in doing so, sucking the prosperity, incentive and life out of civilization and turning us into lambs for the slaughter as the elites play toy soldiers with our children. People "suffer" because of opression, coersion and willful deprivation of the state. Im pretty sure democide, which has erradicated over 250 million people in the last century is a bit bigger contributer to human suffering than non-christians surfing porn on the web, or doing other terrible things like that which will earn them eternal torture and suffering.

See this is what im talking about. In your "spiritual" views, you see freedom as a problem that we are too stupid to handle, but in your "political" views, you stive to see freedom restored to all humanity. I don't get it.

The vocal minority I was

The vocal minority I was speaking of is the Christians who vociferously push the idea of an eternal hell. I do not accept the concept so that takes the wind out of most of your argument, in my case anyway. As far as compartmentalization of beliefs goes you are wrong. I did not come to my beliefs by ignoring logic and reason nor was it arbitrarily imparted to me through my parents, society or religious dogma and then accepted with blind faith.

As far as Zeus etc... goes I understand the reason why those deities were created and it is a shallow antecedent to the monotheistic God. The former was naively used to understand lightning and other phenomena that arise within existence while the latter is the explanation for existence itself in the form of the uncaused (eternal) cause. That is an idea that does not negate curiosity and wonderment about the interim causes and effects, contrary to the position of some atheists. In other words human understanding of God advances just like the human understanding of anything we seek to understand advances.

Finally, by the misuse of human freedom, I am speaking about it being used to empower "collectivist tyranny" due to being reactionary instead of contemplative, being greedy instead of generous, following group think while discarding logic and on and on. That is what empowers "collectivist tyranny" at the expense of human freedom because the latter is misused, whether that's in regard to religion or society.

So you don't believe in

So you don't believe in "eternal" hell. Well that's good. I doubt it takes much time in hell to constitute cruel and unusual punishment though. Exactly how long does a person like me get to be on fire for, for the crime of not believing in, and thus, not worshipping your God? Being burned hurts, I can't imagine more than a few minutes would be neccessary for God to feel satisfied that i've had enough horrible pain to justify my uppity rebelleous attitude... especially given how much he loves me, and how merciful he is. Im sure after five or ten minutes of fire torture, he could even break me and force me into submission. I might promise to worship him if he'll just stop torturing me. Of course, God doesn't want to have to "force" me to love him.. he wants me to arrive there all on my own so that im not loving him out of fear, but rather, because I truly "do" love him. That requires enough torture and fear to literally break my mind and reshape it like a Manchurian candidate. I imagine it would require a few weeks in the hellish torture chamber for that. Probably sessions of torture followed by sessions of fear, and then reprograming with propoganda, repeated over and over for weeks. After that's done, I truly would love him! Just ask the N. Koreans who actually get out of their reeducation camps.

But its not like God is doing the torturing in hell... its the devil. God just built the place and decides who goes there (pretty much everyone) and who doesn't (only a few). Blaming God would be like blaming Bush or Obama for what goes on in Gitmo... or Hitler for what happened in the concentration camps.

Do you think Ghandi is still on fire for his terrible crime of being Hindu, or has God, in his infinate mercy decided to let Ghandi out of his cell and douse the flames? I suppose that depends on Ghandi right? Has Ghandi denounced his former faith and fallen in love with God yet? Perhaps a few more years of burning will change his mind?

In America, most reasonable people believe Bush/Obama are war criminals for indefinate detention, rendition and torture. But the torture they are using is mostly just Waterboarding, with the occasional beating and rape thrown in for good measure. Those things suck, however I would rather get those than to be lit on fire.

Its the concept of hell that is what is so mind-numbingly stupid about religeon. You can invent your own cheerful version of Christianity where God only burns you for a few hundred years for not submitting and kissing his feet, but it doesn't change a thing. Torture is wrong... even 5 seconds of it. Punishing victimless crimes is wrong. Forcing people to think/act a certain way with threats of torture is wrong. You don't apply the same moral standard to your God as you do to your president, and that make's 0 sense. Power is not an excuse to be above the law, and evil is still evil no matter how much dictictorial power or strange magical forces one possesses. God may be able to cast 9th level spells, but murder is still murder. Torture is still torture.

If you believe in a loving God, there are only two possibilities here concerning Hell:

1) God is not all powerful. Maybe the Devil is just as powerful and God can't stop us from going to hell. I know that if my child was walking on a path that would lead her to being tortued with fire, I would do everything in my power to prevent that because I love her. If I were God, I would have enough power to stop it all together, so either God does not love his "children" or he doesn't have the power to stop it.
2) Hell does not exist. *ding* A loving and all-powerful God cannot exist when Hell also exists. The two are dyametrically opposed.

If you insist that there is a hell, then logic dictates that God does not love you. Proof? What crime would your child have to commit that would convince you that her punishment should be immolation, wether temporary or for eternity? I would never light my child on fire, no matter what crime she committed. Anyone who would, does not love their child and is a sick POS. How is it that common wicked mortals like you and I can see how obsurd and cruel it is to light people we love on fire, and yet God cannot?

As for Zues and gang, its no accident that the more our species begins to understand the world around us and the laws of physics through science, the more vague and less specific religeon becomes. The only reason Christianity has endured as long as it has is because its so vague that most things can mean about anything, and nothing can be tied down and categorically disproven. Well there are some things, such as the age of the planet, Jonah living in a whale's stomach for a couple weeks and two of every animal being packed onto one boat (including unicorns). But even these can be rationalized by calling them "stories" with morals, or alogories. Its obsurd to call them facts, given that we now know them to be impossible, so we've adapted to that the entire religeon doesn't become known as just another silly myth. Granted, if you'd called them alogories in the middle ages, you'd be a human torch within a week.

Even when you do find steadfast things which can be disproven, such as the concept of omnipotency and perfection, the faithful just disreguard those things, much like the Zues faithful would have disreguarded anyone who tried to explain lightning as something other than +5 magic javelins hot off the mystic forge.

Little things that clearly illustrait illogical and impossible concepts such as omnipotence. Such as: Can God create a rock so heavy that he can't pick it up? Well if he can't lift it, it means he's not all powerful... but if he can lift it, that means he can't create it. No matter how you look at it, God is limited. This is called logic. The only way around it is with gross rationalisation, vague statments about God's mysterious ways, our limited ability to understand things and outright compartmentalization and denial.

Or: How does a perfect being create imperfect creations? If he's perfect, wouldn't everything he makes be perfect? Why make us flawed? Isn't it possible to have free will without "some" of us having the desire to kill and eat each other? After all, not all of us want to be axe murderes and canibals on any level, so isn't the deck stacked against those of us born "with" those desires?

If he's perfect, how come he's screwed up and changed his mind so many times? How many times has he realized we were just too wicked and brought about mass floods/famines/fire from the sky to wipe out most all of humanity? How many cases of mass genocide are in the bible? 8? 9? He keeps screwing us up, killing us all, then starting fresh again. This doesn't sound like an omnipotent and perfect being to me. It sounds more like flawed mortal scientist with a major ethics problem experamenting and trying to come up with a decent creation that he doesn't have to scrap and start over on.

If God knows everything, including wether or not you will be able to resist a temptation or not... why does he bother to test mortals when he already knows wether they will succeed or fail? Why doesn't he just snap his fingers and make me believe in him and love him instead of going through with this ridiculous excersize of torturing me for whatever you believe the alotted amount of time is in hell im going to get is, after I go through my life without being convinced?

Perhaps the most stupid and evil story in the bible (and that's saying something) is the story of Adam and Eve. Why did God create the apple to tempt Adam and Eve when he bloody well knew they would screw up and eat the thing? He knows everything, and frankly, he made them that way. Then he cursed them and all the people who came after, and had nothing to do with the original "crime"(heridetary punishment, how sick is that) with sin for delivering the outcome he "knew" was going to occur. Essentially, hundreds of billions of people have been sent to hell to be tortured because Adam and Eve disobeyed an order and ATE AN APPLE. WTF is wrong with people that they don't see how stupid and wrong this is? If a human tortured billions of people because some distant ancestor was disobediant, you'd think he was an evil POS.

I don't set an M&M on the counter in my 3yo daughter's reach and then light her on fire when she eats it. I "know" she's going to eat it, so if I don't want her too eat it, I don't put it in a place where she can get it. What kind of sick @#$% sets people up to fail, then tortures them for it? You'd have to enjoy hurting people. Its the only explaination.

As for the rest, I can't disagree with any of that. Our libertarian halves are almost certainly in 100% agreement. I just can't understand how people cannot apply the same standards to the entity they choose to worship as they do the president they choose to follow.

As soon as someone earnestly

As soon as someone earnestly repents and puts their faith toward God by putting the search for the truth of God above everything else they will find freedom. In other words all worldly and selfish concerns are put in subservience to a humble and honest search for truth, because with faith it will be attained, not reactions to what someone else believes but a humble, rational, assured and contemplative search for only the truth. Hell is a state of mind and it occurs now and it can continue even when the consciousness leaves the body. Nothing internal really changes after death. If you are deep in hell when you died you will remain there until you repent and honestly search for God. If you managed to find heaven in life, then that is where you'll remain. Ghandi is not in hell and I doubt he ever went there. Ron Paul knows how to pick his heroes.

There is no such thing as punishment from God, only humans punish. Is it punishment when you get a sore tooth? Or is it a signal to get your tooth checked and take better care of them? That is Gods law. Pain, whether now or at anytime, is a signal that you have turned your back on God and walked away. God is there waiting for your return just as Jesus explains in the Prodigal Son. Walking away or standing apart from God is painful and even more accurately it causes a decrease of joy, which we call pain.

Without the apple we're automatons and your Hobbesian tyrant would actually then be real. God is the totality of all existence - future, past and present, the universe is the "body" and the "mind" is an unimaginable and eternal infinity of infinities from which everything arises. This is a necessity if God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, and especially infinite and eternal because our universe certainly exists within infinity and eternity, not outside of it, therefore God as a totality must encompass and compose it. After saying that, can you lift yourself up? Especially if there is no up outside of infinity.

I have to say your remarks are kind of funny.

Nope. If you believe that

Nope. If you believe that men can punish the wicked, you can't say God can't punish the wicked, who is the only one that is perfectly just, all knowing, and good. If the wicked are to be punished by men who a lot of times miss much, surely the wicked will be punished by God, who won't miss anything.

Points 5 and 6 from below.
5) If men can punish men, how is it that God can not punish, whose justice is completely good, completetly omnipotent, all knowing and wise, and completely merciful. If men think that it is a good thing that the wicked on earth be punished sometimes, how is it that God shouldn't punish? How could that be possible?

6) If men punish a thief for 20 years, how is it that a thief who never repents but keeps on thieving shouldn't keep on being punished? A sinner that never repents is a sinner that is continuing to do wickedly for eternity, and even under man's laws would merit eternal punishment.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

God doesn't punish. He

God doesn't punish. He damns. You aren't whipped, beatin, or imprisoned, you are sent to hell forever. That's not punishment. Its summery execution, only worse.

2nd. Whose fault is it when the robot is flawed? The robots, or the creators? Why would I build a machine poorly, and then punish it for it is shortcomings?

If God is "good" and "loving" why does he demand your worship upon pain of eternal torture and suffering? Seems a little juvenial and arrogant to me.

Lets give some of God's characteristics to Obama.

Obama says: "I better not catch you giving homage to any other president, or trying to change your citizenship out of America. Im a jealous president, and that would piss me off. Do it, and i'll throw you in a cage and light you on fire."

Obama says: "You citizens are filthy and evil, you better appologise and ask me to forgive you for how bad you suck, or im going to throw you in a cage and light you on fire."

Obama says: "I sure do love you guys, but if you do anything I don't like, you better get on your knees and beg me to forgive you, or im going to throw you in a cage and light you on fire."

Obama says: "Ya, I pretty much run this place. You want representitives? You want rights? Ha! Do what your told, or else ill throw you in a cage and light you on fire."

Obama says: "Let me get this straight... you want a Trial!? Ha! You're guilty because I say you are, now beg forgivness or im going to throw you in a cage and light you on fire."

Obama says: "The reason you have to do what I say is because you're too stupid to think for yourselves. Oh sure you've got free will, but if I catch you using it for anything other than what I allow, i'll throw you in a cage and light you on fire."

Seems odd that people who would string up a president who acted this way, will give the deepest homage and worship to a seperate being who acts the exact same way. Hypocracy?

What it boils down to is, people want to be controlled on differant levels. For some, only a mild amount of tyrannical control is required to break them of their instinct for liberty. Others require more. Those who submit readily to dictator who is clearly immoral and petty just because he's omnipoetent and all powerful will probably submit to a tyrant when there's a telescreen in their living room and thought police waiting around every corner.

Torturing and burning people for even short amounts of time for petty, often victimless crimes is moraly wrong, no matter whose doing the burning, be they God or man. Or do you allow God the Nixon defense? "What im saying is that when the President's (God's)doing it, its not a crime!"

If anything, God should be held to a higher standard of morality. I would never worship someone who demanded I do so, and threatened me with torture and indefinate detention if I refused. If the God were worthy of worship, he would never resort to coersion to force you to worship him. He would use incentive and reason to attract your praise. How can people who are passionatly opposed to collectivist systems based on coersion to force conformaty turn around and follow a celestial model that is both diametrically opposed to their political views, and to voluntary free market capitalism in nearly every way?

This is brainwashing at its finest, and its begins with early indoctrination from the time before you could even speak. You compartmentalise all the glaring hypocracy of religeon because you are too afraid to question the obvious contradictions between being libertarian and Christian at the same time. Your brain probably won't even allow the question to enter your mind, as your early indotrination of faith acts as a mnemonic kill-switch which is thrown the second your brain begins to entertain two completely incompatable concepts, such as hating collectivism, but loving celestial collectivism. Its this same implanted and intentional psyscosis which leads people to make astounding leaps of logic and rationlization to explain away silly things that make no sense in order to justify faith... such as finding scriptures that try to link natural rights to Christianity, when the faith in and of itself is the polar opposite of a libertarian based representative Republic.

Even more ironic is, Christian libertarians will spend their lifetime fighting for the Republic and its founding ideals, only to die and go become groveling, obediant serfs who never question their master in the Celestial kingdom in the clouds. I don't understand it, but then... I suppose I don't have to. I love you guys dispite, and am always thankful for stalwart allies in the dark days ahead.

So your judging your maker?

So you're judging your maker?

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

*gasp* Yes. But the

*gasp* Yes.

But the differance is, I don't believe in the "maker" as the Christian faith has laid out for me. The maker presented is a blood thirsty and sadistic egomaniac dictator who gets off on torture. Its probably not a coincedance that the "men" who wrote this book were sexually repressed bishops and priests who were probably also blood thirsty and sadistic egomaniac would-be dictators who got off on torture.

Its a book of lies written by men to be used as peasant control. its been stunningly effective and has reshaped humanity, turning us into docile sheeple who readily accept domination by collectivist dictators and who readily accept lies on faith.

If life is some sort of test, why are you given the answer right out of the gates, and in order to succeed, all you have to do is accept it without question? Why did God give us reason and intelligence if in order to pass his test, we have to willfully not use these things. Does God really want to be surrounded by a bunch of spinless yes-men who didn't have the ability or courage to question the clear cruelty and obsurdities found in the bible? Wouldn't he be better served by those who use their powers of reason to seek their own truths, to stand up against clear imorality by breaking down the barriers of dogma, and who question everything with boldness? Those who follow evil and call it good have clearly failed.

Beware the first light, for it shall be false.

It doesn't matter what you

It doesn't matter what you believe, it matters what is.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

True enough, but thats funny

True enough, but thats funny coming from a group of folks who believe in something with 0 proof, and who are infact just supposed to "accept" this bogus story on "faith." They aren't even allowed to critically examine the logic of the story for fear of "questioning" and thus angering the giant cosmic big brother.

Note to self.

Note to self regarding commenting on a comment:

Read the first comment first, before you comment on a comment.

As Emily Litella would say "Never Mind".

Troll

Just kidding :-)

"The bible's entire text outlines a celestial monarchy"

Brilliant

I like that you did not say "God's Word"

I can have a religio-imaginative God and not require him (in absolute terms) to be tied down to the limitations and un-clear and un-imaginative declarations that "men" have obviously made inthe Bible.

Oh if ONLY JRR Tolkien wrote the Bible.

Hahahahaha

Bad gas can be cured with right-diet

It is hard to eliminate the "funk" of absolutism and absolution-seeking.

How can one be an individualist who seeks absolution, hahahahaha.

By-the-By -- NO CHRISTIAN RELIGIONIST can support Jefferson; he re-wrote and chopped the living *pluck out of the KJV. What a brass pair he had?