10 votes

I'm a Skeptic

You'll have to forgive me if this is the wrong choice in forum to post in. I'm still fairly new to the DP. This is a discussion that is fairly important in my eyes though. Conspiracy is a subject that's often brought up on this website, and I would like to discuss it from my perspective in more in depth.

To start off, as the title of this thread suggests, I'm a skeptic. I don't have huge beef with conspiracy theorists, but I typically object to what they're saying until compelled otherwise. I'm kind of curious if there are any other RP supporting skeptics out there and what they think?

When a conspiracy theorist looks at bad things coming from the government, they claim it's all happening on purpose. That someone is behind it all pulling the strings. They have a tendency to ignore the fact that the failure comes from government being incapable in the first place. As a skeptic I'm not afraid of the government coming to "hurt me", I'm afraid of it coming to "help me." The government can't even run a school lunch program, how do you expect it to pull something off that requires precise timing and coordination? It's the biggest blundering most incompetent institution in the history of mankind. Government programs simply just don't work well most of the time.

As a scientist I cling to Occam's Razor. Conspiracy theorists often blast the media, and the mainstream story because they don't take their explanation of events seriously. The media has huge issues, and I'm not denying those. Thing is often times I find the conspiracy theorists explanation of events more complicated than the main explanation and therefore less useful. Typically an astronomical amount of people would have to be in on things
for the event in question to be executed without any whistle blowing. I'm not saying this isn't possible, just not likely.

The next issue is the lack of empirical evidence. This happens to be one of the most challenging things a conspiracy theorist has to present. Often times a conspiracy theorist has to rest his or her case on speculation. Even when that evidence is available the explanation surrounding it can differ from person to person, and then we end up back with the Occam's Razor issue. What is the most probable or likely?

Finally I ask the question, why don't the conspiracy theorists take any action against the so called conspirators? They'll point finger and complain all day long, but rarely do they actually do ANYTHING. Are the conspirators honestly that far out of "reach"? On the same note does adopting the theory actually do anything to counter the "disinformation"? I think the answer is no to both.

I have a feeling I'm probably going to get blasted right off the DP by the vast majority of you who are conspiracy "believers" here, however I am interested to see what people have to say anyway. It won't be the first time I've been blasted on the DP.

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Skyscraper in China Burns, Doesn't Fall

Suppose they just build buildings better?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoAT8Uq8-NM

skippy

2.5 year old thread, suddenly brought back to life.

?

http://www.dailypaul.com/266149/cia-training-internet-trolls

THE MORE I LEARN ABOUT GOVERNMENT
THE MORE I LOVE MY GUNS
FourWindsTradingPost

interesting observation

I didn't notice this was a 2 year old thread.

But honestly, it is as applicable today as it was then.

Personally, I'm a conspiracy theory junky. I love any and all conspiracy theory, and I believe that most of them are true (or based on truth) even if some of the details are out of sync ... which is to be expected when they are reconstructed with severely limited direct information.

However, I don't generally get involved in the conspiracy theory discussions, and I don't think they are good for the movement. 30 years ago, Dr Paul was very much a part of the JBS, and actively involved in the discussion about the conspiracy of the day. Whether the theories were correct or incorrect, you will notice that he stopped "pushing" them.

Instead, he pushed on fighting the clearly visible problems in our system rather than the hidden ones. I think this is something we as a group should also do. There are plenty of sites out there discussing the conspiracies around us, there are not plenty of sites seeking liberty.

Dr Paul focused is efforts on educating people on what it means to be free again. I personally intend to make that my focus.

I hear ya

What works well with GOP'ers is something like: "Is the Fast And Furious *just* a CT? Since you say not, you must really think that is the only cabinet working against the interests of 'Murica?... and you really do believe that such immoral activities are limited only to the democrat party? You sound like a Conspiracy Nut to me, buddy..."

THE MORE I LEARN ABOUT GOVERNMENT
THE MORE I LOVE MY GUNS
FourWindsTradingPost

I don't yet believe you.

Your claim is ambiguous, your evidence lacking or vague.

Oh Sure MSM isn't in on it.

I guess this makes me a conspiracy theorist. WHATEVER!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltP2t9nq9fI

skippy

Nice fluff

for a skeptic you sure like to use broad sweeping generalizations. You seem to put "conspiracy theorists" squarely in the 911 truth column, but isn't the idea that a man in a cave conceiving a plan using terrorists to hijack airplanes and slam them into buildings a conspiracy in itself? What evidence was presented to you that made you believe with out question that Osama Bin Laden was actually the person responsible for 911?

What is flabbergasting is that seemingly intelligent people like yourself refuse to take notice of ALL the evidence that support a much different version of the events of 911 than the government supported ver. All you need to watch is : 15 minutes to gain some perspective on the truth. If you watch this and still remain a fervent skeptic on 911 then God help you because no amount of logic or reasoning will. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw

Excellent Proof

Thanks for the video. If anyone can watch that and still not believe it was a controlled demo then they are either working for the rats that did it, or else they are too much in denial to admit it.

skippy

You should feel OK being a skeptic.

You should feel OK being a skeptic. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't consider myself a conspirator. As an engineer I've grown to know a few things about physics, and based on the evidence that I've seen I know that the official story that we are told by the MSM is not true. And that is all that I know. Now I may speculate as to what might have happen, but those speculations are just that, speculations, and I try to keep them to myself. The only things I convey to other people when asked about this event is to explain to them what I know to be true. They then accuse me of conspiring and I have to set them straight and reiterate the basic facts as I see them and minimize my speculations. Not an easy task but that's all I can do. I respect your skepticism. Sometime I have some skepticism too, but then I remind myself of the facts, and come back to the same conclusion. The official story is simply not true.

It is better to look dumb and not be, than to look smart and not be.

How can you not be a skeptic on 9/11?

With all the evidence of controlled demolition.

Count me a skeptic as well

yes bad things often come out of our big ol' governement, but not really because of a grand conspiracy. Our governemtnis full of incompetent short sighted people who generally cannot figure out which end of a hammer to use. They are mostly there because they are affable folks that just don't have any other marketable skills to make a living on. This type of personality hates to be wrong, and will twist and spin anything they can to justify their wrong position in order to avoid admitting their own stupidity. Generally the most simple explanation really is true. In the case of 9/11 muslim terrorists probably really did hijack airliners and fly them into buildings which caused amassive fires and structural collapse. The nefarious part is when our own government takes this senseless act and uses it to usurp our constitutional rights (which they are prone to do)as they constantly wish to gain power. BTW I am fully capable of believeing that Mossad knew of the attacks and didn't tell us for their own reasons (i.e. a generally free ride under the eagles wing) which explains their actions of the day; if those reports are to be fully verified that is.

Josh Brueggen
Engineer
Entrepreneur
Gardener
Jack of all Trades
Precinct Commiteeman Precinct 5 Rock Island Co Illinois

Dick Cheney

is a lot of things but incompetent is not one of them. He is evil, calculating, greedy and sly. But NOT incompetent! He told the jets to stand down on 9/11. Oh, I guess that makes ME a conspiracy theorist.

skippy

Let me help you!!!!!

Let me help you!

"The government can't even run a school lunch program"

Watch this: Charlotte Iserbyt: The Miseducation of America
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezTIYd5UFRY

"Conspiracy theorists often blast the media, and the mainstream story because they don't take their explanation of events seriously."

Operation Mockingbird: CIA Media Manipulation
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/mockingbird.htm

" Typically an astronomical amount of people would have to be in on things for the event in question to be executed without any whistle blowing."

FBI Blocks 9/11 Whistleblower’s Book - Seibel Edmonds
http://911truthnews.com/fbi-blocks-911-whistleblowers-book/

"The next issue is the lack of empirical evidence."

Architects & Engineers for 911 Truth.
http://www.ae911truth.org/

"Finally I ask the question, why don't the conspiracy theorists take any action against the so called conspirators? They'll point finger and complain all day long, but rarely do they actually do ANYTHING."

In order to "Act" first one must know!! I took each one of your quotes and gave you the information. It's up to you to ACT upon the information provided! Good luck my friend....

P.S. - My father was in an all black Army Air Corp unit, first the 99th, then later it became the 332nd Air Combat Wing. My oldest brother was killed in Vietnam in 1969 and was an Military Police Officer. My other brother served in the Marine Corps. My other brother served in the Coast Guard and I was an M1 Abrams tank crewman. I love my country and didn't become what u call, a "Conspiracy Theorist" until after I left the service. I was a huge WW2 buff and loved all things military. When I was old enuff, I joined the Army right out of high school, despite the fact I should've been playing opposite Jerry Rice on the 49ers! (Smile) I was watching a PBS documentary on the Vietnam War and saw Robert McNamara apologize for the False Flag event known as "The Gulf of Tonkin" incident. I realized my brother died, and nearly 60,000 of America's sons,over a lie, or as you say, a conspiracy theory. Hope this helps you on your journey of discovery.

Don't Forget

The LIBERTY! I suppose this poster thinks we are imagining that too! Oh yeah, and the RNC didn't REALLY just CHEAT Ron Paul out of the nomination either. THAT's also a conspiracy theory. And Monsanto (The company that made commercials back in the 50's or 60's showing children saying "DDT is GOOD for ME") gives us bad junk to eat. THAT's a conspiracy theory too I suppose. Oh I could go on and on. I guess this guy thinks those things are all honest screw ups by the incompetent government and corporations.

skippy

33 "conspiracy theories" that turned out to be true.

Just a start. Any more condescending BS to spew? Welcome to the DP. I've been here for years, facing up to truths that have made my life miserable and being written off by the likes of you. I do not care what you "believe" I seek the truth and then speak it best I can.

http://www.pakalertpress.com/2010/10/13/33-conspiracy-theori...

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

Awesome link. Wanted to quote

Awesome link. Wanted to quote a bit...

Skeptics are important in achieving an objective view of reality, however, skeptism is not the same as reinforcing the official storyline...

when skeptics attempt to ridicule a conspiracy theory by using the official story as a means of proving the conspiracy wrong, in effect, they are just reinforcing the original “mainstream” view of history, and actually not being skeptical. This is not skepticism, it is just a convenient way for the establishment view of things to be seen as the correct version, all the time, every time.

Government is "just" incompetent?

are you serious? how evil does one have to be to do horrible things to people? Tuskegee ring a bell? Or any number of other known atrocities driven by the corrupt, evil people in our government. Evil is more common place than not in some areas of our government.

How can one be so blind to the evil all around us? And those trying to educate and alert others are denigrated by all of you so enlightened souls.

we all agree that government will do any task

slower, more expensively and worse except conspiracies which for some reason we believe they can do perfectly. You can't have it both ways imho.

I believe there were lots of difference conspiracies at play on 9/11 but I don't believe the idea that one big government conspiracy explains it all. I don't believe, either, that 9/11 was just a series of incompetent coincidences. It was a mixture of incompetence and conspiracies.

What we seem to be missing is a nuanced view on just about everything.

yes, we can have it both ways

they find unskilled dupes for the mundane jobs we interface with regularly. but they also will get highly skilled people for the important stuff. we don't interface with these people very much, if at all.

.

.

look at this:

http://www.constitution.org/ghansen/ghansen.htm

I met this man before and after--

most of the people around whom I lived at this time who also could have known him refused to believe what happened to him, though even by now (much later) the U.S. congress acknowledged its error--

I'm not sure if he has ever been reimbursed; I think he may be dead now--

This was very well covered up. How many other such incidents have been covered up?

I know several people (one a scientist with a Ph.D.) who witnessed crimes that could not be proven and who became the object of psychopaths--

the one I knew very well managed to escape a death that would have been very hard to prove was criminal--

but he never blew a whistle--

I admire whistle blowers, because they are willing to be mocked/sneered at for having pointed out to people who prefer blindness that all is not well in *our* civilization--and that many things are very wrong--

What I am talking about with the people I know very well (not George Hansen, whom I only met)--

did not take place on a national level, but it opened my eyes to the possibilities--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

conspiracies happen every day

unfortunately the real ones tend to get lost in the deluge of wild ones. Sometimes I think there's some intelligence agency putting out the crazy ones so that all the real one's credibility is damaged by association. But that's only a theory:0

unfortunately

I think you probably hit the nail on the head there.

Josh Brueggen
Engineer
Entrepreneur
Gardener
Jack of all Trades
Precinct Commiteeman Precinct 5 Rock Island Co Illinois

why don't those of *us* who believe in . . .

"shadow government" (a term used by Dr. Paul) 'arrest' those who are complicit?

Because those who are complicit have the support of the mainstream media and are in positions of power . . .

over those of *us* who suspect *them*.

I would be very surprised if most on DP haven't at least done some graduate work--

and most of the people *I* know who suspect conspiring among those in powerful economic circles and in powerful political circles and their various agencies--

are also well-educated--

but most of those of *us* who suspect this have seen things go awry in aspects/facets of society that others do not see--

for example, do you know, personally, someone who was the subject of eugenics experimentation?

Well, I do--

changed my paradigm.

Once you meet a political prisoner nobody else has ever heard about--

your paradigm also begins to change--

Believe it or not; it's your choice--

but why on earth would any civil person 'kick you off' this discussion blog?

I always appreciate those who oppose with civility.

:)

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Comes to the same ole......

Attn: Skeptics

"What's your take on 911?"

I presume you have some thoughts (i.e. theories) about that.

So please explain to me how your NOT theorist, but only the "theorist" are theorist.?

THIS, in a nut shell, says A LOT about WHY the country is in the condition it is.

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

Your #1 problem is....

Your #1 problem is your misplaced reliance in Occam's Razor. It is only applicable to events that cannot be manipulated my humans. If you have every studied history, you will realize that a huge number of historical events happened as the result of conspiracies. USS Maine, JFK's assassination, USS Liberty to name just three such events from the last century. Your second problem is lumping all "conspiracy theorists" together. I, as a scientist, cannot tell you with certainty what happened in PA, DC and NY on 9/11/01 but I can with 100% certainty tell you what did not occur. What did not occur is what the 911 commission said happened. How do I know this? Because the laws of physics would have had to have been suspended that day. Humans have successfully sent spaceships out past the heliosphere and we know with a great deal of precision where those craft are today. We were able to do this because the laws of physics apply throughout the known universe and do not periodically mysteriously stop.

Since the official government conspiracy is untrue, a mature and curious mind would want to know what did happen and the fact that our government intentionally is distributing erroneous information makes it the #1 suspect for it is prima facie proof of guilt.

Cyril's picture

I'm a skeptic about skepticism.

I'm a skeptic about skepticism.

Seriously :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jekyll_Island#Planning_of_the_F...

ANYTHING can happen after that sort of things, if one asks me.

P.S.
And indeed... history hasn't disappointed from then on. In the BIZARRE / HORRIBLE / etc.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Freudian defense mechanism.

When outside forces put one in an uncomfortable situation, the body has the following mechanisms to cope: 1) stress; 2) mental defense mechanisms;

Scapegoats are the easiest way to releive the anxiety. For example, Ron Paul's ideas of liberties (as he presents them) do not sell well unless we are under bad economy. Since RP offers to take care of millitary personnel, veterans and their stress syndrome, most of those folks had come over. RP does not extend such an offer to trade unions at larger. Otherwise, they too would be here.

Now, how one of these soldiers, students with debt and veterans who wasted their youth can complain about themselves, their parents and their neighbors? They would sound weak and inferior. On the other hand, blaming a scapegot (government, bankers, zionists, illuminati, etc.) becomes a coping mechanism that justifies his particular situation and relief him from personal responsibilities (it is not I who killed Iraqis, it is neo-cons who forced me.) This is the same as workers used to blame greedy capitalists for their hard work and low pay.

Learn to Spell

before you go spouting Freudian "wisdom" to us. Geez.

skippy

SteveMT's picture

Why cling to the simplest explanation possible?

Razor Theory: "If you have two theories that both explain the observed facts, then you should use the simplest until more evidence comes along"
Example
Central Dogma of Biochemistry:
DNA ---> RNA ---> Protein This dogma worked great until RNA reverse transcriptase, RNA replicase, and prions were found. It's now a lot more complicated than previously thought.

How many "conspiracy theories" already have been proven to be correct? I'm not making up this stuff. It is the truth.

1. JFK: Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy.
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report...

2. Vietnam War started by a lie. The Gulf of Tonkin Incident never happened:

"the reported second attack by North Vietnamese PT boats on 4 August never happened and that "SIGINT information was presented in such a manner as to preclude responsible decision makers in the Johnson administration from having the complete and objective narrative of events of 4 August 1964."
"many historians now believe the supposed attack by North
Vietnam naval forces on the Desoto patrol on 4 August did not occur."
http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/declass/gulf_of_tonkin/articl...
"Congress authorized the war after Johnson contended that American warships had been attacked by North Vietnamese patrol boats in the Gulf of Tonkin on Aug. 4, 1964. The attack never happened, as a report declassified by the National Security Agency in 2005 made clear. The American ships had been firing at radar shadows on a dark night."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/us/07mcnamara.html?pagewan...

3. FDR foreknowledge about Pearly harbor is already posted on the Daily Paul.

4. Big Bang Theory Hoax - This one is very close:

Halton C. Arp is a professional astronomer who, earlier in his career, was Edwin Hubble's assistant. He found that high redshift values do not necessarily mean that objects are far away; high redshift quasars that are symmetrically located on either side of their parent low redshift galaxies. Mainstream astrophysicists try to explain away Arp's observations of connected galaxies and quasars as being "illusions" or "coincidences of apparent location". The large number of physically associated large red shift quasars and low red shift galaxies that he has photographed and cataloged defies that evasion. It simply happens too often. Because of Arp's photos, the assumption that high red shift objects have to be very far away - on which the "Big Bang" theory and all of "accepted cosmology" is based - is proven to be wrong! The Big Bang theory is therefore falsified.
http://electric-cosmos.org/arp.htm