10 votes

I'm a Skeptic

You'll have to forgive me if this is the wrong choice in forum to post in. I'm still fairly new to the DP. This is a discussion that is fairly important in my eyes though. Conspiracy is a subject that's often brought up on this website, and I would like to discuss it from my perspective in more in depth.

To start off, as the title of this thread suggests, I'm a skeptic. I don't have huge beef with conspiracy theorists, but I typically object to what they're saying until compelled otherwise. I'm kind of curious if there are any other RP supporting skeptics out there and what they think?

When a conspiracy theorist looks at bad things coming from the government, they claim it's all happening on purpose. That someone is behind it all pulling the strings. They have a tendency to ignore the fact that the failure comes from government being incapable in the first place. As a skeptic I'm not afraid of the government coming to "hurt me", I'm afraid of it coming to "help me." The government can't even run a school lunch program, how do you expect it to pull something off that requires precise timing and coordination? It's the biggest blundering most incompetent institution in the history of mankind. Government programs simply just don't work well most of the time.

As a scientist I cling to Occam's Razor. Conspiracy theorists often blast the media, and the mainstream story because they don't take their explanation of events seriously. The media has huge issues, and I'm not denying those. Thing is often times I find the conspiracy theorists explanation of events more complicated than the main explanation and therefore less useful. Typically an astronomical amount of people would have to be in on things
for the event in question to be executed without any whistle blowing. I'm not saying this isn't possible, just not likely.

The next issue is the lack of empirical evidence. This happens to be one of the most challenging things a conspiracy theorist has to present. Often times a conspiracy theorist has to rest his or her case on speculation. Even when that evidence is available the explanation surrounding it can differ from person to person, and then we end up back with the Occam's Razor issue. What is the most probable or likely?

Finally I ask the question, why don't the conspiracy theorists take any action against the so called conspirators? They'll point finger and complain all day long, but rarely do they actually do ANYTHING. Are the conspirators honestly that far out of "reach"? On the same note does adopting the theory actually do anything to counter the "disinformation"? I think the answer is no to both.

I have a feeling I'm probably going to get blasted right off the DP by the vast majority of you who are conspiracy "believers" here, however I am interested to see what people have to say anyway. It won't be the first time I've been blasted on the DP.

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Oh, Dov gets around.

He's at the Aspen Institute in a Strategy Program with Brent Scowcroft and Joseph Nye.
And he's a Director of the Foreign Policy Research Institute, which is a neocon outfit.

And his main reported "job" is at Booz Allen Hamilton, a contractor for the military industrial complex that is majority owned by the Carlyle Group(comprised of the Bushes, and James Baker, Bin Laden's father, etc).

And I'm sure he's continuing to do outstanding work as a member of the Council on Foreign Relations.

All fine NWO positions for an illuminary such as Dov.

Dov Zakeim Is Lower Than Satans Excrement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlNQTG8B6hw

http://911review.org/brad.com/batcave/Dov_Zakheim_911.html

http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5367...

911 Evil by Victor Thorns 124 pages read it free.
(Israel's Central Role In The September 11th 2001 Terrorist Attacks)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/30372101/9-11-Evil-Israel-s-Centra...

In for a penny..in for a pound...
http://www.rense.com/general85/banished.htm

And finally a quote from George Washington...

"A passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one nation the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, “- George Washington

Modern orthodox Jews make up

Modern orthodox Jews make up a pretty good fraction of the Zionist movement. There is both religious Zionism and "non-religious" Zionism if you feel like being picky and technical. Thing is Zionism isn't something I brought up at all.

By the non-religious metric, and however you choose to view him, Bush is simply not Israeli. He's American(however unfortunate that maybe). There is a boat load who share his view right here in this country too, non-religious and religious.(yet another unfortunate issue)

Again blaming Israel solely for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan is nonsense. You haven't overcome this point.

Israel is as responsible as Toby Keith.

Quote:

"Modern orthodox Jews make up a pretty good fraction of the Zionist movement."

What???

I dare you to say this to those Hasidic Jews who protest each and every day outside the Israel embassy in New York. I don't think you know what you are talking about. The 'orthodox' jews are being persecuted in their own nation state of Israel.

Go ahead. I dare you.

I didn't claim all Orthodox

I didn't claim all Orthodox Jews were Zionist, simply that they make up a good fraction of the Zionist movement.

The Rock And The Hard Spots Worn Soph-ly

Anisha, I left a comment at the very bottom of the last page of this excellent (mostly uncluttered) thread. It's directed to the OP, who I believe is a sincere fellow traveler who has not yet taken up the map you or I would wave insistently in his face ... But that's not perhaps the most cogent way to get his attention.

Your earlier, more general comment, describing the forces at work was absolutely outstanding. The urgency of the issues you raise shows compellingly we need to put forth all the patience and poise we can muster to get through to intelligent people conditioned to begin an analysis of the reality we believe we have discerned in a way that encourages them to cut through the packaging.

His Toby Keith remark was clever and made a very valid point, yet there is a difference between Machiavellieians wielding the apparatus of state power, and cultural bus drivers, isn't there?

I submit we need the exercise. Let's keep pushing before we shove. In the end, it's our own mission we're on... and before shoving, I suggest we shrug.

Forget him.....

He's not going to be educated until the guy reads all of the pr- PNAC policy papers and papers for Rand Corporation because he's just too stubborn to do his own research.

MIC and the Military Industrial Complex work on behalf of Globalization. Rich white Christian Zionists, & hardcore Zionists from all sides work in the Military Industrial Complex. Israel is only one facet, the others are equally valuable. Empires crafted for "Global Trade" that benefit and interlock with Israel and the country's partners(in crime).

Observe Afghanistan: Opium trade, the drugs trade. All of which benefit Raytheon Industries, one of the largest defense contractors in the Occupied Territories but also in the Republic of Georgia. And it goes on and on from there....Look up the definition of "Globalization" and you're looped back right to the index.

And there's no way mainstream Jews are a part of this as both Christians and Jews have all been duped by a racial colonization machine.

-quote-yet there is a

-quote-yet there is a difference between Machiavellieians wielding the apparatus of state power, and cultural bus drivers, isn't there? -unquote-

That doesn't play to favor of the "Israel did it by themselves crowd" either. Aside from the overwhelming amount of what you would probably consider "Machiavellian" Military Industrial Complex lobbies who simply aren't Israeli, even the "cultural bus driver" as you put it, doesn't march to the tune of Israel(completely), but is marching to a different tune. That in and of itself should hint to a deeper underlying issues when it comes to the war. Claiming Israel did it all, and they're solely the reason behind it is an oversimplification of what went on.

Oh and I don't think I'm

Oh and I don't think I'm alone in this sentiment. I don't think Ron Paul is even with the 9/11 truthers, he's stated something to the effect in the past.

Re: Oh and I don't think I'm

No problem ancapaaron. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just felt that those were a couple of critical points and everyone needs to hear them to be able to consider those options also.

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

Right on. I agree.

Right on. I agree.

Michael Nystrom's picture

Oh, you mean the 19 cavemen conspiracy?

Yeah, I'd say that's a conspiracy, too.

And these cavemen guys training to fly (but not land) pipers, and using Microsoft Flight Simulator conducting those incredible aeronautical maneuvers? That doesn't really jive with Occam's razor much either, does it.

I'm skeptical as well. Skeptical of it all. Skeptical of the skeptics, too.

To be mean is never excusable, but there is some merit in knowing that one is; the most irreparable of vices is to do evil out of stupidity. - C.B.

amazing aeronautical feats in buses of the sky

yep....untrained pilots doing in commercial jetliners (the flying bus of the skies)

what skilled aviators might have to practice up to do in highly responsive fighter planes (the masserati of the skies)...

skeptical does not quite cover my personal incredulity

cee cee

knuckle head

lol

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

Best of all Flir.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTIFmcE8ZjY

Did I mention that Silver Stein asked the New York Port authority to blast the Towers a year before 911

They denied him.. why? Because of the Asbestos in the trade towers, real convenient that he didn't have to pay to have that stripped. It would have cost about a billion dollars.. it just so happen he made that much and more off the insurance for the towers.

No conspiracy here whatsoever... )SARCASM(

"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
-- Thomas Jefferson

yes, and did he not collect something

like treble damages....

slick to have saved all that abatement dough...

and then reap a triple payout....

will second your sarcasm....as I never saw a crash of any sort of plane without a debris field...or at least a piece or two of the wreckage...generally speaking, truly LARGE pieces (say like engines, or most of the body of the plane, or maybe a wing or two)

ps have a dear dear actor friend (whose politics I never concur with)....but that said

wow has he been staunch and out there with regard to 9/11 bless his heart....

cee cee

Saw a bumper sticker

the other day. It read "allegiance to the flag doesn't mean thoughtless obedience"

Thoughtless obedience, that sums up my view at the outset of "THE WAR ON TERROR".

My view has changed. Watch this video and tell me where the conspiracy is.... http://vimeo.com/4777716

I've watched it. I can't see any conspiracy. All I see is a number of Pentagon police officers, Arlington cemetery workers and others, give eyewitness testimony that proves to me the government is absolutely lying about the Pentagon attack. There is no presumption in this video, only evidence gleaned from official records, including NTSB reports and c-span video outlining the governments testimony as to the flight path, destruction, etc.

Unless these people are lying, I don't know...watch it and decide for yourself.

Miamisburg, Montgomery County, Ohio

hahaha

I happen to sit right now in a cafe with one of the leaders of Toronto 9/11 Truth and we both have big smiles on our faces reading this thread.

LL on Twitter: http://twitter.com/LibertyPoet
sometimes LL can suck & sometimes LL rocks!
http://www.dailypaul.com/203008/south-carolina-battle-of-cow...
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

Mr. Legal

What's the word from Toronto 9/11 about the warning to Montreal parliament about Verint Video and false flags?

I say, Facts Save Lives.

"Give a man a gun, and he could rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he could rob the world."

it was a big story last year

we exposed online that this company that was providing the security durng 7/7 London bombings was providing security at Montreal metro system and Vancouver airport...we where telling that we know what could happen and this perhaps helped prevent something from occurng.

LL on Twitter: http://twitter.com/LibertyPoet
sometimes LL can suck & sometimes LL rocks!
http://www.dailypaul.com/203008/south-carolina-battle-of-cow...
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

i am a skeptic

at anything said by anyone who doesn't stand at having something to lose by doing so when their theory is proven wrong. simple free market motive and incentive theory on how people refine their thinking and acts and actually bring something of value to the table when they stand at having something to gain and to lose. otherwise, it's just all talk. two years ago everyone would call peter schiff a conspiracy theorist, if he hadn't put his money where his mouth was. and had he not done that, he would not have dug deeper and completed his theories, and he wouldn't have been able to pinpoint every problem in the economy to a degree of detail that was sufficiently convincing to bring about any positive difference--in this case, convince *some of the skeptics to avoid financial stocks as he suggested. a typical theorist would just talk and talk and want to hear himself talk more and wait for the "see, i told ya" moment, but it's not going to do any good to others. and of course, they don't gain or lose anything either. therefore, i look at those who do more than espousing random talks. for everything else--just all noise.

My basic view

There is conspiracy, there is theory, and then there is crazy.

All of history is a conspiracy of humans struggling for power.

Theory is an attempt to explain this rationally, say via a framework of class analysis (Marx) or maybe 'human action' (economics) (Mises, Rothbard).

The theories themselves need to account for all the facts, and introduce no superfluous or false ones - parsimony.

Crazy, in my view, is where an amateur conspiracy theorist (historian) essentially commits the same fallacy as those who think the economy can be planned - the conceit of knowledge.

The human macro-organizational structure is beyond the intellectual and predictive capacity of any one group of people. No group of people can account for all the facts of a dynamic system larger than themselves, a system of which they are, in fact, a part of.

Recognizing this means we understand the economy cannot be planned, and that a small group of people, even if given 'all' the information, cannot orchestrate the mass action of all people - the economy - history.

Switching gears, I have to point out that skepticism, for me, is only useful when applied to power.

Skepticism on behalf of power serves to uphold the status quo. Skepticism on behalf of power essentially says 'Your fact is valid inasmuch as it fits the State theory of history'. Its the difference between the Papal States and Galileo; The essence of skepticism in political theory and history is qui bono.

The State has failed to provide empirical evidence and a rational explanatory narrative for Iraq, Afghanistan, the events of 9-11, the financial crisis, and 'global warming' and that's just in the last 10 years.

It shouldn't be surprising as the State itself violates the principle of Occam's razor.

All that said, there are those on the DP who come up with some cringe-worthy ideas. But in my view, its just poor science, poor reason. The exercise in exploratory thinking is valuable - and publicizing it lets the jury weigh in.

I've seen amateur conspiracy theorists described as potentially dangerous to the freedom movement because of image management issues - but on the whole I find that the freedom movement is largely comprised of very intelligent individuals who know how to think independently - occasionally this means picking up on a phony idea or two - but I think most people outgrow those.

This is in contrast to the establishment 'thinker' which makes no habit of questioning the 'truths' promulgated by the State's educational drones. Now that's a conspiracy.

just a couple of things

"The human macro-organizational structure is beyond the intellectual and predictive capacity of any one group of people. No group of people can account for all the facts of a dynamic system larger than themselves, a system of which they are, in fact, a part of."

One does not need to account for all the facts of a dynamic system in order to dominate it. Nor need the intellectual capacity be the only force that accounts for the domination. The problem with conspiracy theories are, the more you dig into the deep end of the conspiracy, the more esoteric and intuitive-based the problems get (want to talk crazy? Go research 'Aleister Crowley'). That's where labeling gets convenient, to deflect the threatening unknowns.

"All that said, there are those on the DP who come up with some cringe-worthy ideas. But in my view, its just poor science, poor reason"

The value of science and reason are not (or shouldn't be) based on your view. You cannot judge something to be poor science and reason if you have no idea or understanding what the "cringe-worthy ideas" are, or precisely WHY they are flawed.

truth liberate

Like the way

you swing that logic stick.

yep

thanks for adding some clarification

This possibly is the best

This possibly is the best post I've read here since the website started. This is kind of what I wanted to get at only in much more eloquent words. I only wish I could be this unassailable when writing.

That fifth paragraph is something I wish more could understand. You have an awesome "basic" view.

That was then...this is now...

Everything the Skeptic has learned has been a lie. You're living in the 1920's if you can't accept that fact. Take action? With a nation of zombies? Mission Impossible. As soon as I hear Ockham's razor...I'm convinced.

"Give a man a gun, and he could rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he could rob the world."

Oh, ...the pain...

If you are being sincere...
I'll be nice...and constructive...

Do a search for "David Rockefeller Memoirs page 404"

That's 'bout as much spoon fed regurgitation as you are likely to receive from me.

Enjoy.

Skepticism = belief system

You ended your humble post by judging those who'd argue against you (or "blasting you away") to be conspiracy believers, and so you have effectively guarded yourself from taking radical viewpoints into consideration.

In reality, you will rarely come upon conspiracy theorists (a word used to effectively defend oneself from what is being presented) but perhaps conspiracy entertainers as I'd might consider to be myself at times.

The problem with being a skeptic is that you per definition are a believer! And clinging to "Occam's Razor" (BLATANT belief system) might be somewhat practical withing scientific work, but you might as well forget about finding common ground of discussion on seemingly radical subjects, or learning anything new that might enrich your understanding in unpredictable ways. Information is not dangerous and you owe it to yourself to read up on ANYTHING that evokes some sort of reaction.

I just want to blast away on one point regards to:

"Typically an astronomical amount of people would have to be in on things for the event in question to be executed without any whistle blowing."

1) What astronomical amount? If you've got the subconscious man by the balls, what's to stop you from dominating mankind by orders? Consider large modern day (and ancient) cults (Freemasonry, Knights Templars, innumerable orders delivering 'illumination' to it's initiates). What is to stop insidious minds from dominating a fragmented society of human beings en mass?

2) There are whistleblowers bloody everywhere (concerning let's say, the agreed upon "mainstream" conspiracy theories) and they are stunningly easy to find and look up. You just won't find their stories presented on your evening news. And you must, **MUST** take considerable time to research their stories and literally risk ending up a "conspiracy nut". Period.

The DP is definitely a hub of "strange" people and eccentrics (myself included) and hopefully you will not be put off by hars condemnation and rude remarks. It's a part of taking a step outside the mainstream. You will find most DPs are very much civilized and out for honest discussion. The fact that conspiracy theories are even allowed to be discussed without consistent ridicule (try discussing anything out of the ordinary with your workmates, regular newsforums, even friends and family. you could be as polite and factual as you want, you can forget any discussion of value), tells you something about the level of civilized behavior on this forum. It is truly unique, and being a foreigner (hypnotized by the message of liberty since '07), I can testify to the amazingly level of genuine love and acceptance there is to find here.

There are plenty of resourceful users here on DP. If you feel like challenging your thoughts, this is where you want to expose them!

truth liberate

Nice

"so you have effectively guarded yourself from taking radical viewpoints into consideration."

I was trying to put this feeling into words with another self-described 'skeptic' friend. You nailed it for me.

Conspiracy entertainer?! Brilliant.

Strong post.

-quote-You ended your humble

-quote-You ended your humble post by judging those who'd argue against you (or "blasting you away") to be conspiracy believers, and so you have effectively guarded yourself from taking radical viewpoints into consideration.-unquote-

That's not what I wrote at all. That's simply what you inferring, and it is not so. I didn't state anything remotely close.