10 votes

I'm a Skeptic

You'll have to forgive me if this is the wrong choice in forum to post in. I'm still fairly new to the DP. This is a discussion that is fairly important in my eyes though. Conspiracy is a subject that's often brought up on this website, and I would like to discuss it from my perspective in more in depth.

To start off, as the title of this thread suggests, I'm a skeptic. I don't have huge beef with conspiracy theorists, but I typically object to what they're saying until compelled otherwise. I'm kind of curious if there are any other RP supporting skeptics out there and what they think?

When a conspiracy theorist looks at bad things coming from the government, they claim it's all happening on purpose. That someone is behind it all pulling the strings. They have a tendency to ignore the fact that the failure comes from government being incapable in the first place. As a skeptic I'm not afraid of the government coming to "hurt me", I'm afraid of it coming to "help me." The government can't even run a school lunch program, how do you expect it to pull something off that requires precise timing and coordination? It's the biggest blundering most incompetent institution in the history of mankind. Government programs simply just don't work well most of the time.

As a scientist I cling to Occam's Razor. Conspiracy theorists often blast the media, and the mainstream story because they don't take their explanation of events seriously. The media has huge issues, and I'm not denying those. Thing is often times I find the conspiracy theorists explanation of events more complicated than the main explanation and therefore less useful. Typically an astronomical amount of people would have to be in on things
for the event in question to be executed without any whistle blowing. I'm not saying this isn't possible, just not likely.

The next issue is the lack of empirical evidence. This happens to be one of the most challenging things a conspiracy theorist has to present. Often times a conspiracy theorist has to rest his or her case on speculation. Even when that evidence is available the explanation surrounding it can differ from person to person, and then we end up back with the Occam's Razor issue. What is the most probable or likely?

Finally I ask the question, why don't the conspiracy theorists take any action against the so called conspirators? They'll point finger and complain all day long, but rarely do they actually do ANYTHING. Are the conspirators honestly that far out of "reach"? On the same note does adopting the theory actually do anything to counter the "disinformation"? I think the answer is no to both.

I have a feeling I'm probably going to get blasted right off the DP by the vast majority of you who are conspiracy "believers" here, however I am interested to see what people have to say anyway. It won't be the first time I've been blasted on the DP.




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Sorry to interupt

but what are Moon Nazis?

wow

Great video, I also learned from the comments left under the video that the Nazis developed a gravity bell during the war - which the Americans currently have in their possession!

That's a new

one on me. I would say I would reaearch it, but this time I will leave it to others. Wouldn't see the point in knowing if it were true or not and I'll admit I think it's stupid. Very unlikely. Thanks for wasting my time though;) You got me lol

You've never heard the "Nazi Moon Base" one?

It's a classic.

So you're saying there's not always a conspiracy at work?

Or that conspiracies exist but are not likey to actually materialize? You want to challenge the likelihood of something you know is real? I'm confused.
You don't think that only street-level drug dealers (who are regularly charged with "conspiracy") are the only people intellectually capable or with the appropriate influence to perpetrate conspiracies, right?

I'm absolutely saying there

I'm absolutely saying there is not always conspiracy at work.

No to the second question.

No to the third question.

No to the fourth question.

Fair enough?

That's absolutely fair

You're not really a skeptic then, you're a realist. Having the ability to discriminate facts and analyze situations is a key trait of most true researchers. Sometimes there's conspiracies, sometimes there's not.
A good example:
http://dailypaul.com/node/139566

You're an anarcho-capitalist aren't you?

I'm just assuming that based on your screen name.

So, isn't the entire state a criminal conspiracy, in your view?

You think that, but you DON'T believe that 9/11 was an inside job?

Good Questions! You're right,

Good Questions! You're right, I'm an Anarcho Capitalist, and I'm not a 9/11 truther.

The state does a load of horrendous things I find egregious, offensive, and immoral as well. What I haven't done is made the leap to those horrible acts being perpetrated maliciously and on purpose just to spite me.

The human factor is important to me. I've realized it's totally within the personal needs of certain folks to cling to government or a set of rules to live by. My personal needs aren't the same. For me, Anarcho Capitalism has always been more of an art, rather than a goal I expect to achieve.

I'm not saying there IS NO conspiracy, or that its not possible. I'm just challenging the likelihood of it.

The state exists. Its true. Is it a criminal enterprise?

In the anarcho-capitalist view (I'm think of Rothbard specifically), yes it is. It violates the non-aggression principle.

So you believe that the nation state itself is just the dominant criminal syndicate in a particular territory, but you find it hard to believe that anything like a false-flag operation could possibly take place?

I'm not Rothbard, but I do

I'm not Rothbard, but I do draw from him for inspiration, and your correct the state violates the non-aggression principle. The issue is whether or not it's being done intentionally in a widespread manner? I have a tendency to err on the side of NO when it comes to answering that particular question thanks to a human factor that's involved.

What about declassified material?

Operations Northwoods and the FBI's Cointelpro are good examples.

Let's not forget the classic false-flag operation that occurred in 1930s Germany.

Very few historians today would deny that the Reichstag Fire was an inside job.

To further solidify my

To further solidify my point.

I think there are certain people out there who absolutely can't live without government. Not everyone can be exactly like me.

There are definitely people who can't live without government

My problem is government not being willing to live without folks like us.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't eliminate it

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." -David Rockefeller

what if the term conspiracy is the issue....what if the

term is more acurately: strategy...(strategies)

that are suitable to the furtherance of agenda

cee cee

I was a skeptic

not anymore the research was overwhelming, there IS an agenda.

If you choose to believe or not, does not matter the agenda moves forward and we are all swept along with it.

Prepare & Share the Message of Freedom through Positive-Peaceful-Activism.

If there is a so called

If there is a so called "agenda" the conspirators are going to have a hard time pulling it off. They can't even get the right mail into my mailbox.

You have an unstated premise there.

Why would knowledge of clandestine criminal activities have to be widely distributed among different state agencies at all levels of command in order to work?

Clearly, it would have to be the exact opposite. My personal hum-drum experience of the state is that the "right hand" typically has no knowledge of what the "left hand" is doing.

Historians have noted that dictatorial regimes often use a chaotic state apparatus so that the dictator himself has more power.

The canonical example of this was the Nazi regime. Senior nazis were typically at each others throats and intrigue was the rule rather than the exception.

I encourage you to read the words of the conspirators

They don't hide it very well, if at all. Read David Rockefeller's autobiography. Read Carroll Quigley. Read Nelson Aldridge. Read Edward House. They openly admit that they conspire to bring things about constantly. Granted, there are some "conspiracy theorists" who just make it up as they go along, but they are NOT the majority. The bulk of us are actually "reality analysts" and simply pay a lot more attention and are willing to dig for truth--it's often readily available. I encourage you to watch "Fall of The Republic" and cross-check every fact they claim. Holding to "I don't believe it" is THE LEAST scientific approach possible and makes smart people seem like complete buffoons. WAKE UP!

Truth.

I tend to remind would be debaters that, "I do not debate politics." I am happy to share historic "facts" that they are in turn free to do their own research. I equate it to hitting a coconut (their head) with a hammer (truth). I don't want to eat the coconut, just create a fissure so what's trapped inside can be released and a little truth can enter.

Good idea!

*

I read

your piece....and the first thing that comes to mind of course is 911. You state "Lack of empirical evidence" and you also state that you are a "scientist". By definition, "Empirical Evidence" is information gained by means of observation or experiment. The empirical evidence with regard to World trade center 7 falling points 100% to "Conspiracy". That is fact, their is no disputing it. Watch it fall, no fires, and very little damage. If you can not see this then you are blind. This is the door to the rabbit hole. Many people do not want to open it. If you are indeed a scientist.....then please do your research in regards to WTC 7 and give me your conclusion. Thank you.

You are partially right, in that government is incapable

of running a school lunch program, the post offices or the DMV!
If you check out the agenda behind many of the mandated programs, you will get a better picture of the reasoning behind the inefficiency despite the control.
Go to the U.N. Agenda 21 site. The aim is world government.
When something becomes fact, is it still a Conspiracy Theory?

I never really considered the

I never really considered the blundering governments need to perpetuate itself to "fix" all the worlds problems a conspiracy. The one worlders conclusion is "If all governments in the world become one government then it will be big enough to solve our problems"

I don't see anything really malicious behind that thought, I simply see it as impossible.

ancapparon,

I'm glad you are a skeptic, and that you realize government is incapable of even running a school lunch program.

However, at the root core of our anxiety we will notice that the real reason we can easily accept 'conspiracy scenarios' and with all the evidence gathered, the actual 'conspiracy' taking place before our eyes, is because the checks and balances of our great bicameral system is completely busted, undermined, and made so dysfunctional that justice is now impossible.

If you don't think this is any big deal, think again.

Is it not a wonder that people with extremely high IQs and less than average moral compasses, have been selected from the finest schools all over the country and invited to take part in 'think tanks' at the CFR, American Enterprise Institute, and the Brookings Institute, devising plans like the Project For A New American Century??? These ones are compensated with big FRNs and many perks to boot.

They are tasked with producing probabilities of what might occur should the twin towers be hit, or a bio warfare, nuclear, or a weather disaster scenario took place.

Do you think this is for our benefit???

They are busy being tasked with these things by the demands of the military industrial complex and all their new technological gadgetry making death oh so interesting; a study in itself!

Heck there were a few of those who even became president/vice president, but they may only rank higher due to their greater psychotic traits.

We are wide open, dear. We no longer put 'real' criminals away. They are too busy being used by special interests and the banking industry.

We are vulnerable because we have no checks and balances anymore.

Hence, this is why I am an advocate for Articles of Freedom, if only Americans would think on this.

Our bicameral system and Constitution has never failed us, it is the finest system and document in the world.

Only 'uneducated educated' Americans could cause this system to break and become broken the way it is.

We are being played like a chess game and I suspect there are a few at the top who take great satisfaction in causing the worst nightmares that our founders knew would take place if their admonitions were not heeded by all the future Americans.

If you "cling to Occam's Razor",

then you are not a scientist.

Occam's Razor is not a scientific method.

"Skeptics" are more often than not, more aptly described as "obuscators". It serves their needs for denial, at the least, or serves "somebody else's unspoken needs" at worst.

The need for "evidence" is always a comical one.
Evidence abounds. The "skeptics" simply refuse to accept it, and then claim "no evidence".

As for "why isn't there prosecution?" well, when much of the physical or documented evidence is hidden under the National Security blanket, which was created for that exact purpose, and the courts are run by the people who are trying to protect themselves, sometimes this can run into a little snag in the prosecution game.

Occam's Razor is typically

Occam's Razor is typically used as a heuristic rule of thumb in science. I never claimed otherwise in my initial post. The idea that it has no place in science is absurd.

good post

bump for a healthy exchange of opinions...

here are some videos for sceptics and others to watch -
http://www.libertypoet.com/911mix/

LL on Twitter: http://twitter.com/LibertyPoet
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http://www.dailypaul.com/203008/south-carolina-battle-of-cow...
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