0 votes

Why were the "Original 13 Colonies" so successful using debt free colonial script?

This question, has not ever been covered, to my knowledge, and if we as a nation wish to be free of the FED, then shouldn't we be able to sell the average man on the street(and our representatives) as to why we need a debt free currency?

(If you are not aware, the colonies went to war with England over this issue, hence the Revolutionary War)

Having a debt free currency caused tremendous success in the colonies...but why?(and what argument could be easily used to persuade someone, or some nation, to issue its own fiat currency, that is debt free?)




Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Free-Market Solution

A free-market is one where there is pure competition and zero barriers to entry.

All Property is valued in Currency.

Therefore he who owns the currency owns the "value" of all property.

Thus a Free-Market Currency is going to create hyper competition in the Currency Market and thus in the Value Market.

When value is competed over (instead of being in a monopoly position) the prices go down (interest rates go down).

This means there is no "benefit" for the rich to own it in the long run.

That means that the owners of currency in a free-society are the polar opposite of a corporatist society.

It's the poor and middle class who are savers in a free-society and thus the owners of the currency and thus the owners of valuation.

The "rich" in a free-society grow their wealth by chasing innovation and entrepreneurialism.

Entrepreneurialism comes predominately from the poor and middle classes.

Thus you have a perfect reciprocal society and dynamic wealth transfer from pure competition and free-market currency (valuation).

To be free, markets must free from monopolies

Our monetary system is privately owned and operated by a monopoly of private banks. There cannot be free markets when the monetary system is owned by the big market players.

And, markets can't operate freely when there is too little money and too much debt.

END the FED before it ENDS US

Agreed!

Our monetary system is privately owned.

Our gov't system is born from bribary and abdication of self-rule.

Neither should have control over currency because both are fatally flawed.

This does not mean I disagree with Lincoln (as we've discussed before) -- Gov't printing money with no interest is far better than letting the Feds control interest rates and who gets loans.

It's a better-than situation.

But there are too many opportunities for folks to sell-out -- Look what happened to Lincoln and the Greenback.

Lincoln slapped the face of the Rothschilds and so did Kennedy -- Bravo!

However, it showed (Kennedy and Lincoln both) that the Original Wrong (giving the slave owners / profiteers the only power of vote and the sole authority over currency) could not replace the 2nd Wrong (giving authority more-and-more to the Rothschilds.

It's why Marx said Capitalism always leads to Corporatism -- the latter can only come from Capitalism.

Not an "error" in capitalism, but from Capitalism's very nature -- "ownership"

The 'prime' ownership will always lead you to control of the currency.

As you give people the right to vote and 100's of other civil laws / protections then you must do two things: 1) You must break away from economic-feudalism (or capitalism) and 2) You must control the valuation mechanism behind all property (currency).

This happened to every single Monarchy in Europe after the advent of Slavery -- Rothschilds controlled them all.

"Ownership" is a legal authority and laws create "rents" from which unions form.

Now "Possession" is like liberty -- something that must be perpetually re-earned (zero protectionism).

Well said Sir!

Hello OctoBox,

We seem to agree in understanding the "man-made" inequities of the current system.

OctoBox wrote:

-- Gov't printing money with no interest is far better than letting the Feds control interest rates and who gets loans.

It's a better-than situation.

But there are too many opportunities for folks to sell-out -- Look what happened to Lincoln and the Greenback.

Agreed, principal and interest charges on national government borrowing are unnecessary and foolish since bonds (debt) or dollars (debt free) are both equally backed by the people and property of the United States.

They are both backed by the same source but the bond benefits private banks through debt while the direct issuance of dollars is totally debt free.

You bring up an important point when you mentioned the potential for a government "sell-out" and I would add that there needs to be a separation of power. For example, I think the national government should create all money but I don't think they should distribute it. That should be a separate function of private and state owned banks.

If banks are properly regulated (translation - they should not regulate themselves), there should be no reason for the money creating federal government to interfere with the wants of willing and worthy borrowers. The market should decide the financial needs of the economy and government should simply be a provider.

Cheers,

Larry

END the FED before it ENDS US

Republicae's picture

- Gov't printing money with

"- Gov't printing money with no interest is far better than letting the Feds control interest rates and who gets loans."

Actually, there is no such thing as a government printing money, fiat money, without creating a system of liabilities associated with such systems. Fiat money is liability money, there is no asset value nor can there be an asset value imparted to such currencies. There must therefore be a mechanism, that mechanism, whether directly or indirectly is the securitization of debt to support the structure of a government issued fiat currency. Whether single-tier or dual-tier fiat, each will require correlation between the currency and debt accumulation. Fiat currency is not self-liquidating because it has no asset value, it is a debt obligation whether interest is directly associated with its creation or not.

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

You are incorrect...again

Republicae wrote:

Actually, there is no such thing as a government printing money, fiat money, without creating a system of liabilities associated with such systems. Fiat money is liability money, there is no asset value nor can there be an asset value imparted to such currencies.

That simply isn't true. Government may directly issue money without any debt or liability.

If government promised to redeem the currency with PMs, then yes, it would be fiduciary money with the promise being a liability.

And you have missed an important point in erroneously declaring that there is no asset value backing our currency. It is true that banks create money for virtually free and that they add no backing but the money is backed by their customers through an IOU and collateral.

When the government borrows money, it is backed by the credit of the people and property of the U.S. It should be a matter of concern to all of us that we solely back their money and the next obvious question should be - why don't they pay for the use of our credit?

END the FED before it ENDS US

Republicae's picture

That simply isn't true.

That simply isn't true. Government may directly issue money without any debt or liability. DrKrbyLuv

HOW? Tell me how the monetary mechanics of such a system would actually work DrKrbyLuv? I dare say that you will be unable to explain the workings of such a system that would provide the imputation of value to such a currency or the marketability of such a money substitute since there is no asset value to the currency system. Do you actually think that the simple act of printing pieces of paper, issuing it into circulation, calling it money and enforcing the use of that paper by coercive legal threat makes that paper money? There is a reason why fiat paper money is mandated by government fiat, if it were not then no one would use it!

Now, since you have proposed such a system you must have thoroughly worked out the mechanics of such system. What therefore, will be the determinate factor of supply the meet productive demand? How will valuation take place if there is no means of the imputation of value? How, for instance, will your system effect trade, the balance of trade? How will it be accepted in the international market since it will be a relatively isolated monetary system? It's your proposal, isn't it? Explain it to us, surely you can!

So, tell me why you seem to think that a piece of paper can be exchanged as money with no imputation of marketable value to it, what is the monetary mechanics of such a system? If the government issues a medium of exchange, i.e. fiat paper money, the very act of issuance is an act of liability on behalf of the government, it is a legal obligation of the government and of the People of the United States of America. This is particularly true when those pieces of paper are used in the balance of trade with other countries, who accept that paper as payment for goods, it is not simply that they believe in the full faith and credit of the United States, but that they must recognize some imputation of value. A piece of paper is, by the subject of governmental injection into the economy, a legal obligation and a notification of a debt, whether that fiat piece of paper is directly or indirectly attached to the monetization of a countries debt obligations. As a medium of exchange you can either have an asset value or a liability value, since there is absolutely no asset value imparted to the printing of any fiat currency there must therefore be only a liability, a promise to honor the fiat currency as a means of exchange in the payment of debt. Thus, it is a liability, it is a debt, it is an obligation that the receipt of such money substitutes will be honored as payment on demand of exchange. It is, in its most essential character, a sham! …and you promote such a system.

You promote a system that is not, in any way, either feasible nor based on a mutual and voluntary consent or confidence. Additionally, there is no possible way that such a system can conform to the ideal of strictures against injustices since it must be forced upon people, usually without their consent and many times without their actual knowledge. The idea you promote is as old as recorded history and the failures of such a system is equally as old. The single-tier fiat apparatus is organized as a means of concealing government spending and makes it possible for the government to side-step overt taxation, making it far more profitable for the government than does a direct form of taxation. Money by fiat is the money of the slave-master, the Lord of the Manor and produces little in the way of actual wide-spread prosperity except for a limited few who have access to the source of such a currency: the government.

Any fiat system, whether it is single or dual-tier provides for the total discretionary powers of government control, there are no restraints upon a government using such an immoral form of monetary power.

Now, obviously you don’t have a great deal of understanding about the differences in debt obligations or securitizations; for if you did you would not make such absurd statements.

"They are both backed by the same source but the bond benefits private banks through debt while the direct issuance of dollars is totally debt free."DrKrbyLuv

The above statement is not accurate, the U.S. Treasury Bond issues for the securitization of debt for this government pays interests, received by the FED, but between 94 and 97% of that interest is "rebated" back to the U.S. Treasury. There is no such thing as debt-free fiat money DrKrbyLuv. You will always have either a direct or indirect debt attached to the currency of a country because the government of that country borrows, especially under any fiat monetary system, heavily to maintain itself and its expansion.

There is a huge difference between a paper receipt system where those receipts are redeemable in real money, by the way, which is not a debt or obligation system since the owner of those receipts is also the owner of the gold or silver on deposit. A receipt system of money, unlike your fiat regime, is not a debt-based system created on an IOU system. It is a matter of title, when a bear holds a warehouse receipt, such as a silver or gold certification that only denotes that the bearer has ownership rights to the given amount designated on the certificate. It has nothing to do with a government promise or liability since the government holds no ownership title to the money on deposit.

In order for your proposal to be considerable and viable you must relate just how a directly issued fiat currency will work within the economy. You must provide information about the effects of such a currency on the relative pricing structures within the economy, how transactions under such a regime are conducted without the imputation of value from a debt obligation that would allow for the marketability of the currency. The highest form of efficiency comes from the exchange of an asset for an asset; fiat money does not possess the qualities nor the character of an asset value. As such its influences are not the same as real specie, the efficiency of a monetary unit influences the productivity of all the real resources in our economy, without an exacting marketability the influences will always create distortions.

You propose yet another low-quality money substitute and completely ignore the FACT that the higher the quality of money, or even the commodity that serves as money, the higher economic productivity is achieved and so too the higher a standard of living. What you suggest is like a weak battery, the store of value is non-existent and only a meager amount of power is present to perform economic operations. That is one reason why fiat currencies tend to fail, especially those which are constructed as a single-tier system. It simply begins to take more and more of the fiat currency to provide the economy with marketable unction.

There is absolutely no possible way for either the single or dual tier fiat systems to serve as a reliable store of value, which makes it very questionable if such a currency can actually serve as a form of actual money since there is, within all fiat systems, a propensity of depreciation. You have also failed, once again, to answer the questions of fiat money functioning as an efficient unit of account since all fiat systems are subject to inflationary depreciation, which always skews the information normally associated with units of account. As a medium of exchange, you fail to either grasp and obviously you can’t explain the effect the various characteristics of fiat currency have on the currency as an actual medium of exchange within an economy. You see there is far more to fiat money than simply having the government print up some pretty pictures on slips of paper, call it money and force people to use it.

So, tell us DrKrbyLuv, how will your system work on every aspect of the economic ladder?

I can’t wait to hear this!!!!

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

Which is why I said it was "better-than"

I did not say it was optimal.

Liability without Interest Charges is better-than Liability with Interest Charges.

If such a gov't never printed money for budget and only stuck to a consumption tax (no other taxes allowed) and it did not charge interest on the printing -- this would be far superior to our current system.

However; the optimal situation would be one where all markets were un-regulated and in pure competition including the currency market.

I hope that makes it a little more clear.

I don't believe in Single or Dual Tier Fiat - one will always lead into the other (from single to dual) or (from capitalism to corporatism).

You cannot "limit" Gov't -- by definition it must expand because it exists owing to bribary and abdication of self-rule.

The bribary must be spread out every new year -- as more and more people must be bought to "go along" (the sellouts job? to convince people to abdicate self-rule).

Republicae's picture

The problem is that whether

The problem is that whether there is a direct or indirect interest attached to a fiat currency, there is still interest attached. A liability is exactly that a liability, an obligation of payment in one form or another, direct or indirect. DrKrbyLuv's proposals for a fiat system that is the issuance of government is nothing more than a bill of credit, with all bills of credit there is, by definition, a debt associated with such emittance. In other words, DrKrbyLuv is proposing nothing new and absolutely no solution.

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

I don't know

what the point is -- it's mathematical.

His system is "less" taxing and "our" system of free-market currency is zero taxing; in fact it's the root of a free-society and thus value adding.

The original debt is owned by the Banking Clans -- they will not accept an alternative zero value system to pay off their high interest zero value debt-ownership.

They did not accept it from Lincoln nor Kennedy.

It doesn't mean Larry's "wrong" -- it's just not possible to reverse the course (from a full-on Fiat Fed to a mixed regulatory / commodity based currency).

You do not go from Corporatism back to Capitalism.

This current situation has never happened.

Here's what will happen. The Fed Bankers will horde gold, minerals, try to control water, and commodities.

If we bring forth Consumer-Economics then to grow in wealth they will need to circulate these assets.

If we become conscious-consumers we will never allow currency to fall out of pure competition and the old owners will then seek innovation and entrepreneurialism; as the latter are the only ways to generate dynamic wealth in a free-society.

Republicae's picture

Actually Octo....DrKrbyLuv's

Actually Octo....DrKrbyLuv's system is just as taxing as the current system, but the taxation on a directly issued fiat system is slightly disconnected from the issuance, therefor it is much better concealed from the people. There is however, the consideration that under a direct, single-tier fiat system [DrKrbyLuv's proposal] the hidden taxation of inflation is much greater since there is no controlling mechanism on the rate of inflation. With the current dual-tier system the rate of inflation, while also hidden, is, to a degree, controllable.

The horrors of a single-tier system, such as the one DrKrbyLuv proposes, is far greater than those of a dual-tier system, the collapse of either is just as dangerous, Single-tier fiat systems bring about a much quicker collapse than does a dual-tier system; that is the primary reason that governments created the dual-tier, it allowed for a longer period of enslavement under a fiat peonage.

DrKrbyLuv is a Statist, there is no other term for his ideology.

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

My point is -- there's "no point" in your debating with

Larry other than for sport.

Single Tier and Dual Tier are both non-functioning systems.

You say one is worse than the other, but both were controlled by the same people (ultimately).

The single tier would of worked better if the bankers did not put an artificial tax on the Greenback -- of 185%. Which quickly destroyed it.

This does not mean you are wrong either -- The single tier would of failed eventually too, for the reasons I've stated elsewhere; the "sell out" effect and gov't would of over printed.

The argument is moot -- Dual Tier is "optimal" for the Fed. They will not allow us to go back to a single tier where they have no control. To enforce such a thing is to give power back to the men who abdicated it (congress) in the first place.

Consumer-Economics is the only way to free everyone.

All owners suffer under corporatism -- even the bankers do. They must continually push out the rings of bribes it takes to keep them in power (or off with their heads).

Republicae -- I try to avoid absolutisms

Would you argue that the Fed has 100% control over currency and thus property value under our current system?

Answer: Yes they do

How did the Fed react when Lincoln created his "single tier" fiat system -- it is well documented actually, what they said.

Quote: London Times circa 1865

"If this mischievous financial policy, which has its origin in North America, shall become endurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous without precedent in the history of the world. The brains, and wealth of all countries will go to North America. That country must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe."

It is a fact that every Monarchy in Europe was toppled by the Rothschilds (et al) owing to Slave Trade Debt (direct and indirect) -- Indentured and Chattel.

Why did Lincoln create the Greenback? Because the Rothschilds wanted slavery to spread and flourish and they wanted the states to be divided and under Monarchy (or Rothschild) control. So, the Rothschilds wanted to charge Lincoln 35% interest on loans to fund the war -- whereas the loans to the south were far cheaper and had been going on for many decades prior to the Civil War. Again the latter being "how" the Rothschilds dominated Europe (Slave Trade).

So, Lincoln created the Greenback -- What were these destructive (to the Rothschild's) features and what was their response.

Lincoln created money with NO INTEREST charges.

The Rothschilds reacted by placing seemingly unimportant limitations on the use of Greenbacks insisted on by the bankers, forbidding their use to pay import duties and interest on the public debt, were utilized by the banks and gradually to slap a surcharge on Greenbacks of up to 185%

The timing was such that when the armies began to masse for the next push Lincoln had no choice but to accept the National Banking Act of 1863.

Lincoln said: "They persist, they have argued me almost blind - I am worse off than St. Paul. He was in a strait between two. I am in a strait between twenty and they are bankers and financiers."

Thus the Greenback was destroyed not long after it was created.

Following that the Rothschilds rose total U.S debt 7 times higher than it was 40 years after the Civil War. For 40yrs it hovered around $2.4B and then the Fed discovered war-debt and abandoned seemingly meaningless slave debt. War and Drugs.

All of this was under the "dual-tier" system.

The single tier had "Fed Folk" inflation on it, but it was artificial.

There's no history for a single tier system that was not manipulated by the people who created the dual tier system -- it's been under their control the whole time, because they got the 1st line of debt (slavery) and could not be denied the 2nd line of debt (war).

If Lincoln tried to resist too strongly the Rothschilds or encourage his people to not pay off their debt the Reds would of poured the French and English army into the country and Lincoln would of had three wars to fight.

In fact the Reds forced the crown's to put armies in Canada and Mexico to aid the South.

What "saved" us from this invasion as England's total dependence on our food production (it was corn - wheat) that balanced the decision tree.

So we could not escape their debt and engage them in battle and they could not attack because of their dependence on food production.

Well said OctoBox...

Thanks for providing a much needed historical perspective. The international bank cartel uses our credit while usurping our financial sovereignty.

Professor of History at Georgetown University, noted historian, member of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) and mentor to Bill Clinton, Carroll Quigley wrote:

"The goal is not merely to "destroy" everything, but to overthrow a world economy without total chaos and mayhem. David Rockefeller, in his own autobiography "Memoirs", stated that the Rockefeller family had been involved in "secret cabals working against the best interests of the United States" and also in "conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic system--one world, if you will" --(Memoirs, pg 405).

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole.

This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world." --(Tragedy and Hope, 1966, pg 324)

END the FED before it ENDS US

I have to ask,in all this has anyone put themselves in their

Their shoes,for the times?They had assets that were in place and could not be moved.Everything they owned was permanent to their property holdings.Freshly mucked out water sources,several cords of wood and a spring planted garden.They had to sell "Lock,Stock,and Barrel"when they decided to relocate.How else could this be done without a promissory note,Draft or paper bills that could be considered promissory notes.There was an absolute need for it at the time,so at that time and place it worked well for those that wanted to move.Early Americans were very restless,and this was common.

"They used to come get you and lock you up because you were insane, Now they come get you and lock you up because you are sane"

Agreed, the system evovled based on need

The colonies didn't have near enough gold and silver money to support their potential for trade and productivity. Colonial scrip worked well in colonies that understood how to back the scrip with land (e.g. Massachusetts and Pennsylvania) and not as well when it was not backed by anything or backed by the scarcity of gold and silver.

For example, "Continentals" were backed by the promise to redeem Spanish milled silver dollars. The problem was that the new government had precious few silver dollars or practically no gold. If the government had enough silver dollars, why would they have needed to issue paper promises?

Everyone knew it was a loan (debt money) as it was obvious to many that the promise to redeem in silver wasn't worth a "Continental." The money should have been backed by the people and property of the U.S.

In 1729, Benjamin Franklin wrote “A Modest Enquiry into the Nature and Necessity of a Paper Currency.”

"This pamphlet, a brilliant tour de force, was well received by the common people. The rich, however, hate it, but they have no writers among them able to answer it. Franklin’s arguments carry the day, and the paper money bill gains a majority in the [Pennsylvania] assembly." - link

“There was abundance in the Colonies, and peace was reigning on every border. It was difficult, and even impossible, to find a happier and more prosperous nation on all the surface of the globe. Comfort was prevailing in every home. The people, in general, kept the highest moral standards, and education was widely spread.” - Benjamin Franklin

No doubt, many of the colonies were doing very well, especially Pennsylvania and Massachusetts where the amount of new paper money was controlled. But not all the colonies had the same success as earlier attempts in South Carolina resulted in a currency deprecation. A system was clearly needed and Franklin forged that system with his - "A Modest Enquiry into the Nature and Necessity of a Paper Currency.”

Franklin begins his pamphlet by noting that a lack of money to transact trade within the province carries a heavy cost because the alternative to paper money is not gold and silver coins, which through trade have all been shipped off to England, but barter. Barter, in turn, increases the cost of local exchange and so lowers wages, employment, and immigration. Money scarcity also causes high local interest rates, which reduces investment and slows development. Paper money will solve these problems.

But what gives paper money its value? Here Franklin is clear throughout his career: It is not legal tender laws or fixed exchange rates between paper money and gold and silver coins but the quantity of paper money relative to the volume of internal trade within the colony that governs the value of paper money. An excess of paper money relative to the volume of internal trade causes it to lose value (depreciate).

First, Franklin points out that gold and silver are of no permanent value and so paper monies linked to or backed by gold and silver, as with bank paper money in Europe, are of no permanent value. Everyone knew that over the previous 100 years the labor value of gold and silver had fallen because new discoveries had expanded supplies faster than demand. The spot value of gold and silver could fluctuate just like that of any other commodity and could be acutely affected by unexpected trade disruptions. Franklin observes in 1729 that “we [Pennsylvanians] have already parted with our silver and gold” in trade with England, and the difference between the value of paper money and that of silver is due to “the scarcity of the latter.”

Second, Franklin notes that land is a more certain and steady asset with which to back paper money. For a given colony, its supply will not fluctuate with trade as much as gold and silver do, nor will its supply be subject to long-run expansion as New World gold and silver had been. Finally, and most important, land cannot be exported from the province as gold and silver can. He then points out that Pennsylvania’s paper money will be backed by land; that is, it will be issued by the legislature through a loan office, and subjects will pledge their lands as collateral for loans of paper money.

Finally, Franklin argues that “coined land” or a properly run land bank will automatically stabilize the quantity of paper money issued — never too much and never too little to carry on the province’s internal trade. If there is too little paper money, the barter cost of trade will be high, and people will borrow more money on their landed security to reap the gains of the lowered costs that result when money is used to make transactions. A properly run land bank will never loan more paper money than the landed security available to back it, and so the value of paper money, through this limit on its quantity, will never fall below that of land.

If, by chance, too much paper money were issued relative to what was necessary to carry on internal trade such that the paper money started to lose its value, people would snap up this depreciated paper money to pay off their mortgaged lands in order to clear away the mortgage lender’s legal claims to the land. So people could potentially sell the land to capture its real value. This process of paying paper money back into the government would reduce the quantity of paper money in circulation and so return paper money’s value to its former level.

Automatic stabilization or a natural equilibrium of the amount of paper money within the province results from decentralized market competition within this monetary institutional setting. link

The term "fiat" money is very misleading, as you can see the colonial scrip was backed by the collateral of land. And so it is today, as private Federal Reserve notes are backed by the people and property of the United States. The banks may profitably create it for virtually free but it is backed by us; so why does our nation pay others for money that we alone secure?

Cheers,

Larry

END the FED before it ENDS US

Glib answer: They didn't have shoes.

Short answer: Actually, they weren't better off for using fiat currency.

Long answer: Read Murray N. Rothbard's A History of Money and Banking in the United States.

What is the morality of printed money?

First of all, you fellows who want the government to print up money and spend it into existence are ignoring the Constitution which gives Congress the power to COIN money and regulate the value there of and prohibits States from making anything but gold and silver COINS legal tender, both provisions which are being violated now, and which would be violated if the federal government printed its own money instead of banks creating and loaning out debt money.

But what would be the effect of the government running its printing press to pay for what it spends? One effect would be more government because they would have unlimited ability to pay for all their schemes; they just print up a little more as was the case in the Colonial experiment with spending their own paper into existence. And another effect would be hyperinflation, something that is unlikely to happen because of the deflationary drag of debt under the current fraudulent monetary system.

And what is the morality of printing instead of honestly, openly taxing. The weight of devaluing the value of money falls on those with the least ability to avoid its negative effect, the poor and the elderly dependent on fixed incomes. What is being proposed is nothing more than legalized counterfeiting.

So what we have here in those advocating the government turn to the printing press is an expression of their own immorality, their disregard for the Constitution, and/or their ignorance of the effect substituting their proposed predatory system for the existing predatory system.

"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence." Thomas H. Huxley

Don't preach morality by supporting an immoral system

Our debt based monetary system is immoral and inequitable.

When you add the national debt and unfunded liabilities, every new born American comes into the world with over $670,000 in debt. It is clearly immoral to allow future generations to be born into debt bondage.

Debt based systems cannot be sustained as I showed in another post. Where is the morality in defending a system that is doomed as a mathematical certainty?

You claim that government should not be allowed to create debt free money and you simultaneously shackle us to a debt money system.

Read the constitution again...it also states that only the government can create money and to draw off the credit of the U.S. It does not say that congress may give this sovereign right away to private banks.

By issuing bonds, we are drawing from our credit. And equally, we may directly issue dollars instead without taking on any debt.

END the FED before it ENDS US

Republicae's picture

But DrKrbyLuv, aren't you in

But DrKrbyLuv, aren't you in support of the government directly issuing a fait currency, your so-called "sovereign currency"? You decry the current system and yet you propose a system that is equally as immoral as the current system. The simple act of printing fiat paper money is no less dishonest than doing it with the current dual-tiered debt system, both require the organization of debt into currencies. Your idea that a single-tiered system will be significantly different than the one we currently are subjected to is based on a substantial misconception about the character of all fiat paper monies, they are all liabilities, they have no asset value and therefore the valuation must come from somewhere otherwise few people will be willing to accept them unless, of course, that currency is FORCED upon them by legal threat and coercion.

You decry our current system and yet our own government is the primary beneficiary of the system it created. By the way, a fact that few people are aware of is that Congress rejected the plan that came out of the Jekyll Island and came up with a plan of their own, what we see today is, in a large part, that Congressional plan in operation. The government receives the bulk of all interests earnings paid through the FED, it is the government, as I pointed out several times that owns and controls this monstrosity called the FED.

It is the government that issues this fiat currency through its fiscal agents we know as the Federal Reserve System. [I will use your own tactic against you: refer to the 1976 Staff Report to Congress on the Directors of the Federal Reserve for the information that demonstrates that the FED is a government agency that acts on behalf of the government and the government created banking cartel]

All fiat currency systems tend to collapse for the abuses of government and the overwhelming accumulation of debt that such systems readily create. Your idea that there is such a thing as a debt-free fiat currency does not follow either historical precedent nor monetary logic.

What is a fiat paper currency? It is a governmental creation that presents a legal notification of a debt obligation, the reason for that is because you cannot impart asset value to a piece of paper which holds absolutely no asset value in and of itself. Therefore there must be something that organizes its value, under fiat regimes that "something" is the debt obligation or liability of the government. For every fiat paper "dollar" issued by this government there will be an equal liability obligation on the government. There are other issues that you have obviously not considered in such a proposal. You have not considered the marketability of a single-tier fiat monetary system, for it to be successful in this country it would have to be accepted by other countries in the balance of trade, good luck on that one.

Now, unlike your idea, which, by the way, is well-worn for wear since it is a scheme that has been tried and failed for generations before, gold money is readily recognized and would be accepted by other countries instantly if the U.S. suddenly decided to return to a sound monetary system based on gold/silver. In fact, if the U.S. did return to such a system it would follow that other countries would follow suit because of the disadvantages those countries would suffer if they remained outside the gold monetary realm.

If you recall, I posted an excerpt from the Canadian Financial, which, during the Campaigns, stated that if Ron Paul won and returned the U.S. to a gold monetary system then Canada would have no choice but to return since such a move would give the U.S. the most competitive advantage in the world.

So, unlike your idea of a "sovereign currency" characterized by the single-tier fiat system, gold is its own promise of payment, there is the instant recognition of value, even on the books gold is an asset on both the Asset and Liability side of accounting. Unlike your proposed system or the system we currently suffer under, gold bears no debt and no interest; additionally, the markets set the rate of natural interest under a gold monetary system unencumbered by government intervention.

Gold also requires budgetary restrain, something that simply cannot be said for any type of fiat currency, neither the dual-tier system nor your proposed single-tier system.

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

The gold standard was abandoned because it failed miserably

"By the mid-1700s, the British Empire was approaching its height of power around the world. Britain had fought four wars in Europe since the creation of its privately-owned central bank, the Bank of England. The cost had had been high. To finance these wars, the British Parliament, rather than issuing its own debt-free currency, had borrowed heavily from the Bank.

By thie mid-1700s, the government's debt was £140,000,000 - a staggering sum for those days. Consequently, the British government embarked on a program of trying to raise revenues from its American colonies in order to make the interest payments to the Bank.

But in America, it was a different story. The scourge of a privately-owned central bank had not yet landed in America, though the Bank of England exerted its baneful influence over the American colonies after 1694.

Four years earlier, in 1690 the Massachusetts Bay colony printed its own paper money - the first in America. This was followed in 1703 by South Carolina and then by other colonies. In the mid-1700s, pre-Revolutionary America was still relatively poor. There was a severe shortage of precious metal coins to trade for goods, so the early colonists were increasingly forced to experiment with printing their own home-grown paper money. Some of these experiments were successful. Tobacco was used as money in some colonies with success.

In 1720 every colonial Royal Governor was instructed to curtail the issue of colonial money. This was largely unsuccessful. In 1742 the British Resumption Act required that taxes and other debts be paid in gold. This caused a depression in the colonies - property was seized on foreclosure by the rich for one-tenth its value.

Benjamin Franklin was a big supporter ofthe colonies printing their own money. In 1757, Franklin was sent to London to fight for colonial paper money. He ended up staying for the next 18 years - nearly until the start of the American Revolution. During this period, ignoring Parliament, more American colonies began to issue their own money.

Called Colonial Scrip, the endeavor was successful, with notable exceptions. It provided a reliable medium of exchange, and it also helped to provide a feeling of unity between the colonies. Remember, most Colonial Scrip was just paper money - debt-free money - printed in the public interest and not really backed by gold or silver coin. In other words, it was a fiat currency.

Officials of the Bank of England asked Franklin how he would account for the new-found prosperity of the colonies. Without hesitation he replied:

"That is simple. In the colonies we issue our own money. It is called Colonial Scrip. We issue it in proper proportion to the demands of trade and tndustry to make the products pass easily from the producers to the consumers…

In this manner, creating for ourselves our own paper money, we control its purchasing power, and we have no interest to pay to no one."

This was just common sense to Franklin, but you can imagine the impact it had at the Bank of England. America had learned the secret of money, and that genie had to be returned to its bottle as soon as possible.

As a result, Parliament hurriedly passed the Currency Act of 1764. This prohibited colonial officials from issuing their own money and ordered them to pay all future taxes in gold or silver coins. In other words, it forced the colonies on a gold and silver standard. This initiated the first intense phase of the first "Bank War" in America, which ended in defeat for the Money Changers beginning with the Declaration of Independence, and concluded by the subsequent peace Treaty of Paris 1783.

For those who believe that a gold standard is the answer for America's current moneta problems, look what happened to America afer the Currency Act of 1764 was passed. Writing in his autobiography, Franklin said:

"In one year, the conditions were so reversed that the era of prosperiy ended, and a depression set in, to such an exten that the streets of the Colonies were filled with unemployed."

Franklin claims that this was even the basic cause for the American Revolution. As Franklin put it in his autobiography:

"The Colonies would gladly have borne the little tax on teaand other matters had it not been that England took away from the Colonies their money, which created unemployment and dissatisfaction."

In 1774, Parliament passed the Stamp Act which required that a stamp be placed on ever instrument of commerce indicating payment of tax in gold, which threatened the colonial paper money again. Less than two weeks later, the Massachusetts Committee of Safety passed a resolution directing the issuance of more colonial currency and honoring the currency of other colonies.

On June 10 and June 22, 1775, the "Congress of the Colonies" resolved to issue million in paper money based on the credit and faith of the "United Colonies". This flew in the face of the Bank of England and Parliament. It constituted an act of defiance, a refusal to accept a monetary system unjust to the people of the colonies.

"Thus the bills of credit [ie. paper money] which historians with ignorance or preiudice have belitled as instruments of reckless financial policy, were really the standards of the Revolution. They were more than this: they were the Revolution itself." - Alexander Del Mar, historian

By the time the first shots were fired in Concord and Lexington, Massachusetts on April 19, 1775, the colonies had been drained of gold and silver coin by British taxation. As result, the Continental government had no choice but to print its own paper money to finance the war.

At the start of the Revolution, the U.S. (colonial) money supply stood at $12 million. By the end of the war, it was nearly $500 plion. This was partly a result of massive British counterfeiting. As a result, the currency was virtually worthless. Shoes sold for $5,000 a pair.

George Washington lamented, "A wagon load of money will scarcely purchase awagon of provisions."

Earlier, Colonial scrip had worked because just enough was issued to facilitate trade and counterfeiting was minimal. Today, those who support a gold-backed currency point to this period during the Revolution to demonstrate the evils of a fiat currency. But remember, the currency had worked so well twenty years earlier during times of peace that the of England had Parliament outlaw it, and during the war the British deliberately sought to undermine it by counterfeiting it in England and shipping it "by the bale" to the colonies."

From Bill Still, Money Masters

END the FED before it ENDS US

The Gold System Didn't Fail !

It was intentionally "destroyed" by Socialist President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, { possibly under orders ? } When he stole/confiscated the Constitutionally mandated Gold from we the people, starting in 1933.

At the time there were still many working Gold mines in the Western USA, and some people were still using placer Gold as Constitutional money.

The difference between a slave state and a "Free" state is ownership ! Please think about this.

beesting

I believe this statement is incomplete

Gold as money failed miserably to help government's gain control over it's citizens.

But it is important in helping those citizens protect their wealth. So important that the Federal Reserve demanded Roosevelt confiscate under duress the people's gold. Why? Because currencies competing with Federal Reserve Notes reduced the government's central control.

So important that silver was removed from our common coins in 1964. Most copper was removed from the penny in 1982, Our coins are mere tokens barely worth more than the materials used in paper money.

A Double eagle was worth $20 in 1912, this was set by law. Today that Liberty Double Eagle is worth $1208.

So either the dollar has been deflated or the price of gold, silver, iron, copper, nickel, milk, eggs, Harvard Education etc has inflated.

The turd in the punch bowl is the duel-tier fiat created Federal Reserve Dollar. When it goes the ways of the Colonial Scrips, War Continentals, the Michigan wildcat bank notes, Jay Cooke's Civil War Greenbacks. and it fails at long last under the weight of its debt, will we finally understand what value is and is not?

Autonomy, mastery and purpose.

Free includes debt-free!

The Gold Standard failed miserably because it was an

attempt to tie everything to one commodity as if it were magical.

In addition, they tried to maintain this standard while retaining each their own national standard of weight and purity. That is a mess.

Metals can function very easily as commodity money and are best suited for it, but you have to follow these guidelines or you'll be right back where you started:

  1. For international trade which is mostly handled in very large values, use kilogram or larger bars at .9999 (24kt) purity. Gold, Platinum and Palladium all work well here. If holding all of them, there will be an optimal but fluctuating mix that preserves value.

  2. For domestic trade, though not prohibited to travelers would be smaller coins/bars/ingots of .900 purity (≈22kt) for general circulation based on the gram. (likely smallest coins of any metal would be about 3g or the size of a dime and the largest common size would likely be about 25g ≈ old "Dollar" size. The reason for the lower purity is for durability in trade. Each specimen would still contain the full amount of pure (.9999) metal.

  3. DO NOT stamp any "face value" or "denomination" on any specimen. ONLY the weight and purity is necessary. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.

Independent rating agencies like PCGS or NGC could certify randomly selected coins from batches made by either public or private minters. Certification would constitute a replacement for legal tender, be required for payment of public charges, and carry the same death penalty as is currently on the books for counterfeiting or debasing the current coin of the United States.

By using the SAME standard of weights and measures all over the world, trade can flourish and be priced in any one or a combination of the various six metals best suited for money: copper, nickel, silver, palladium, gold, and platinum.

Various sizes of copper and nickel coins/bars will circulate depending on the present market value relative to each other and the other metals. Silver will be the most stable for every day purchases. Palladium for medium value purchases, gold and platinum for larger purchases and longer term savings.

There is no need for any country to have "sovereignty" over a money supply and the relative value of the individual specimens it uses if doing so prevents trade or causes imbalances that thwart market equilibrium. Besides, nations are not sovereign, people are. "National sovereignty" is a hold over from the old days when the King was the government. It is rooted in feudalism, and has to go.

This is not, is not, a veiled attempt for world government. On the contrary, it is an argument for a true market money. The market can do what it wants, but these basic guidelines would correct the flaws in the previous implementations of specie.

Republicae's picture

Perhaps, instead of reading

Perhaps, instead of reading Bill Still you should actually read the words of those who were actually there, living during that period. I think you will find that the historical concoctions of Bill Still will pale in comparison to the words of those who witnessed the events of the period first hand.

I know that Bill Still, like other pro-fiat pro-state infiltrators, tend to point out some quotes attributed to Benjamin Franklin that "show" a favorable attitude of Franklin toward the fiat regimes of the times however, once you actually read the writings of Franklin you will get a totally different picture of both Franklin's evolving attitude as well as the actual history that Bill Still distorts, perhaps intentionally, because there is no way to arrive at his conclusions while reading the writings of those such as Franklin without willful intent. The question is why would anyone, like Bill Still, intentionally distort that history?

I strongly suggest you read the writings of Benjamin Franklin for a first-hand account of that history. You have, time and again, used very questionable sources, quotes out of context and a revision of history that simply doesn't add up. For instance, you were quick to use the FEDERAL RESERVE DIRECTORS: A STUDY OF CORPORATE AND BANKING INFLUENCE to support your assertions of the private ownership of the FED however, when it was pointed out to you that you were using copies that had been altered and not the original Report, you simply ignored that fact and continued to use such falsehoods, but the question is: TO WHAT END? Why would you do that? Why do you use the falsehoods propagated by Bill Still?

For instance, you will never hear Bill Still use this quote from Franklin:

"That the Merchants trading to America have suffered and lost by it. That the Restriction has had a beneficial Effect in New-England. That every Medium of Trade should have an intrinsic Value, which Paper Money has not. Gold and Silver are therefore the fittest for this Medium, as they are an Equivalent, which Paper never can be. That Debtors, in the Assemblies, make Paper Money with fraudulent Views. That in the Middle Colonies, where the Credit of the Paper Money has been best supported, the Bills have never kept to the nominal Value in Circulation, but have constantly depreciated to a certain Degree whenever the Quantity has been increased. To consider these Reasons in their Order. The first is, That Paper Money carries the Gold and Silver out of the Province, and so ruins the Country, as Experience has shewn in every Colony where it has been practised in any great Degree. --Remarks and Facts Relative to the American Paper Money Wed, Mar 11, 1767, Benjamin Franklin

I dare say that you will not hear Bill Still, who, like you is eager to use any quote as long as it confirms your particular belief system, but cowers when the actual facts contradict such fraudulent assertions intentionally used to deceive, use this Franklin quote:

"While they have Paper Money in Plenty, the Gold and Silver they obtain by Commerce with Spain, &c. is continually remitted hither. The Want of Paper Money, if the restraining Act is not repeal’d, will naturally oblige them to think of every Means by which the Gold and Silver may be here after retained. The Middle Way, and what is best for the whole Empire on both Sides the Water, ...
... be in the Repealing Act, the Colonists can then hurt only themselves by a depreciating Currency, and will generally be well on their Guard. But as there are some new Colonies that are as yet little acquainted with the Nature of Paper Money, it may, perhaps, be well for Government here to act as their Guardians and prevent their doing themselves a Mischief. ..."
--The Legal Tender of Paper Money in America Fri, Feb 13, 1767--Benjamin Franklin

Interesting that there are those like Bill Still and yourself DrKrbyLuv, who fail to understand that while colonial paper scrip was seemingly "debt-free" money that was simply not the case, as exhibited in Franklin's own words about paper money:

"That in the Year 1723, the first Experiment of Paper Money was made in Pennsylvania, by striking and emitting on Loan, upon real Securities, the Sum of Fifteen Thousand Pounds.

Or how about this DrKrbyLuv:

Effect intended or not, Experience and Time must discover. The general Effect of the Depreciation among the Inhabitants of the States, has been this, that it has operated as a gradual Tax upon them. Their Business has been done and paid for by the Paper Money, and every Man has paid his Share of Tax according to the Time he retain’d any of the Money in his Hands, and to the Depreciation within that Time. Thus it has proved a Tax on Money, a kind of Property very difficult to be taxed in any other Mode; and it has fallen more equally than many other Taxes, as those People paid most who being richest had most Money passing thro’ their Hands. With regard to the Paper Money or Bills borrowed by the Congress it appears by the above Account to be under two different Descriptions. First, The Quantity of Bills borrowed before the Depreciation, the Interest of which in Silver was to be and is paid in France. Of the Paper Money of America Sat, Jul 3, 1784--Benjamin Franklin

"Thus those Lenders have their Property secured from the Loss by Depreciation subsequent to the Time of their Loan. All the Inhabitants are satisfied and pleas’d with this Arrangement, their Public Debt being by this Means reduced to a small Sum. And the new Paper Money which bears Interest, and for the Payment of which solid Funds are provided, is actually in Credit equal to real Silver. If any Person living in distant Countries have thro’ their Absence from their Property in America suffered Loss
... they will meet with Redress. The real Money us’d in the United States is French, Spanish, Portuguese and English Coins, Gold and Silver. The most common is Spanish mill’d Dollars, worth 5 livres 5 sols tournois. The nominal Money is generally Paper, reckoned in Pounds, Shillings, and Pence, of different Value in the different States when compar’d with real Money, and that Value often changing, so that nothing certain can be said of it. But every where the Accounts are kept in the nominal Pounds"
Of the Paper Money of America Sat, Jul 3, 1784--Benjamin Franklin

Debt-Free DrKrbyLuv??? Read this:
"On the provincial authority a certain sum, for example £50,000 local currency, is issued in paper money, and it is proclaimed that whoever in the colony needs a loan, can get it in paper from the government as a loan at 5 percent annual interest on good security. So many who need money are assisted. Generally there is included a condition that the new debtor shall repay one tenth of the capital annually."-Gottfried Achenwall: Some Observations on North America from Oral Information by Dr. Franklin

"A Paper Currency not convertible at pleasure into Money can never become the Medium of a Commerce intended much beyond the Power of the Legislature that creates it. Every Accession therefore to its Quantity must be immediatly felt, and cannot be made without Injustice to those, who must use it."Richard Jackson Sun, Mar 17, 1754--Benjamin Franklin

"Perhaps this consequence would attend our making no Paper-money at all of any Sort, that being thus by a want of Cash driven to Industry and Frugality, we should gradually become more rich without their Trade than we can possibly be with it; and by keeping in the Country the real Cash" Sat, Aug 8, 1767 --Benjamin Franklin

"My greatest apprehensions arise from the depreciation of our paper money. If we emit more bills of credit, they will fall to nothing; we cannot tax to the amount of the charges of the war, and of our civil establishments; we must then raise money by lotteries, and by borrowing."Tue, Aug 12, 1777--Benjamin Franklin

"How the new Bank will find itself in the Situation of Middle man, and the Danger Inherent to this Situation I had in view, when I left room for the Objection that it would be too great an undertaking to Change all the Paper Money for notes at once. Whether this be ventured on or not, it will be necessary to borrow a Sum of money in England, greater or Less in proportion to the Extent of the design, on the Public Security of the Province, a part of which I believe it would be proper ." --Benjamin Franklin

"Where there is a free government, and the people make their own laws by their representatives, I see no injustice in their obliging one another to take their own paper money. It is no more so than compelling a man by law to take his own note. But it is unjust to pay strangers with such money against their will. The making of paper money with such a sanction is however a folly, since, although you may by law oblige a citizen to take it for his goods, you cannot fix his prices; and his liberty of rating them as he pleases, which is the same thing as setting what value he pleases on your money."Sun, Feb 17, 1788--Benjamin Franklin

"I believe the Congress have laid aside all Thoughts of them, having fallen upon means of borrowing at Home of their own People, by issuing Paper Money bearing Interest, which appears better and more advantageous to the Country than paying Interest abroad." Franklin

" Lately informed that the Congress Stopt the Proceeding in those Drafts soon after it commenc'd, having adopted the better Plan of borrowing at home by issuing new Paper Money bearing Interest; and calling in all the old by Taxes." Franklin

"In providing for the support of the widows and orphans of militia men who fell in the late war; this power in the opinion of Council ought to be lodged in more proper hands, and its decisions thereby rendered more uniform. The continual depreciation of our paper money merits the most serious attention of your Honorable House. This circumstance alone diffuses languor and embarrassment through the whole executive department of Government. Contracts cannot be compleated for the making of roads, or any other public business." Franklin --Feb 1788

"The depreciation of our paper money calls for the attention of the legislature. We wish for a conference with a committee of your honorable house on this important subject." Franklin-- 1788

"There has been a general Depreciation of the Value of Paper Money in America, not made by Order of Congress, as it seems you have been told, But growing naturally and gradually from its too great quantity. The Congress have advised the Several States to call in their proportions of it by Taxes; and tho' the Depreciation." Franklin--Sun, Aug 6, 1780

"United states for 1000 Dollars each for my Inspection, which I return inclos’d. I have not yet seen the resolution mentioned therein but by what I can recollect from the face of the Notes themselves, I judge that the Dollars for which the notes are given were of Paper Money borrowed, and that the interest will be payd and the principal repaid in the same paper which is now in state of great depreciation. If before the time of Payment it should fall still Lower, the possessor of the Notes will be so much a Loser, if on the Contrary they should rise in Value. Franklin -- Sun, Jun 13, 1779

"The influx of Money expected soon from Spanish America begins already to lessen the Depretiation on the paper money, which will probably be at par when The Specie arrives, as your Excellency knows that this paper bears an Interest of four per cent. Those who keep their cash in their Coffers will prefer it to Specie." Franklin-Thu, Jan 15, 1784

"The Necessity of keeping up the Credit of our Paper Currencey, and the variety of important Uses, that may be made of this Money, have induced Congress to go as far as 6 Per Cent, but the Interest is heavy, and it is hoped, you may be able to do the Business on much easier Terms. Franklin--Sat, Dec 21, 1776

"We have several subjects that we must lay before you. One, unfortunately, is money. The nature of the war has necessitated far more emissions of paper currency than would ordinarily have been wise; to limit them Congress has borrowed extensively, with interest to be paid in Europe, great sums of which are now due. Franklin --Fri, Aug 28, 1778

Now, while Franklin definitely favored paper money for a very specific and limited use, he was not, thankfully, blinded by it nor did he white-wash the obvious problems associated with paper money. Needless to say, it was not as rosy as it is made out to be by the likes of that infiltrator Bill Still.

Now, here's one of the comments made to Franklin about paper money:

"Too much paper & too little hard money has been an amazing damage to us. A loan must be obtained if possible, that so by drawing for the merchants at a high exchange we may sink a considerable part of our currency. " From William Gordon Thu, Feb 4, 1779

DrKrbyLuv, you make it a habit to use a very wide brush in your threads, usually to the detriment of a subject that should be considered far more finely then you seem to be willing to employ. For instance, there have been more than a few occasions when you have stated that the gold standard caused The Great Depression, as though that extremely diluted statement adequately described the events that preceded The Great Depression and those events that took place during that period. I dare say that you cannot adequately describe the events of that period any more than you have been able to use certain sources, such as Bill Still, to contradict actual history. Though you may try, your attempts as a pro-statist, pro-fiat advocator does little to enhance your reputation as a defender of Liberty and Voluntary Action. You would have the government impose yet another fiat regime, yet you cannot explain the monetary mechanics of such a single-tier fiat system.

I have made this suggestion several times before, perhaps you will eventually take such a suggestion to heart and actually read some of the most important economic and monetary works of the last 300 years.

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

You are STILL claiming that the Fed is not privately owned?

Republicae wrote:

For instance, you were quick to use the FEDERAL RESERVE DIRECTORS: A STUDY OF CORPORATE AND BANKING INFLUENCE to support your assertions of the private ownership of the FED

Clearly, the Federal Reserve is 100% privately owned. This is a documented historical fact based on an overwhelming amount of evidence, congressional testimony and reports, books and biographies.

The fact that you continue to argue that it is not privately owned damages your credibility and misleads many who are honestly trying to figure out the monetary system. People need to ask why Americans allowed the government to turn over the creation of money to private individuals and corporations? And isn't this a major conflict of interest?

This is a critically important fundamental especially when one realizes that many of the the same people own and operate the private Fed also own Wall Street banks, the IMF & BIS and many the world's central banks.

I've provided you with many quotes and much documented evidence through this and other threads but you can't seem to let go of denial.

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce."

-Paul Warburg, one of the authors of the Federal Reserve Act.

END the FED before it ENDS US

Republicae's picture

NO, Drkrbyluv, what you have

NO, Drkrbyluv, what you have provided are simply quotes, not proofs! If your criteria of a proof is that it is based upon a quote then you are indeed in deep intellectual trouble, and that appears to be the case; for you have used several quotes as though they were indeed factual, but have supplied absolutely no actual proof to back up those quotes.

For instance, you have used the quotes of Wright Patman, but they are only quotes, quotes from a politician. Do you believe every quote you read from a politician? You must since you have given the indication that by simply providing a quote is all the proof you need, well I am sorry, that is not a sound enough reason to actually believe something.

You were on fire using the FEDERAL RESERVE DIRECTORS: A STUDY OF CORPORATE AND BANKING INFLUENCE to prove your assertion until you read the actual report which refuted your stance. While you used that Study you held the assurance that it was actual proof, yet when you find out that it does not back up your position then you must, by necessity, crawfish backwards, but that seems to be a very common trait with you DrKrbyLuv. If you actually took the time to read instead of cutting and pasting bits and pieces in order to formulate your position perhaps then you would see the just how void your position has been in the past and just how vain your attempts are today to propose anything worth consideration as factual. You have created your own reputation for less than honest postings and threads; you have no one to blame but yourself.

Show me your proofs, you have yet to show anything that remotely resembles a proof, all you have are contextually skewed quotes that you, like others such as Bill Still, use and twist in order to painfully stretch out some sort of storyline that doesn’t match reality.

Why, you can’t even explain your positions with enough coherencies to allow for an understanding that attempts to resemble logic. You constantly dodge questions and request for detailed explanation; when you do attempt to provide such explanations such attempts are shallow in the extreme, omit extremely vital principles that you have trouble either understanding or relating to what you are trying to say.

I don’t even think you know what you are talking about when you suggest that the government simply issue fiat money directly. Have you explained the workings of such a system? NO. Can you explain such a system as a working economic exchange model, doubtful? Do you even know that all fiat money is liability money, whether it is directly issued by the government or if debt is monetized as it is today. Why would you support a fiat system on one hand that is exactly the same as the fiat system you say you are against on the other? They are both debt systems, obligation systems, liability systems...or didn't you know that?

You have been challenged time and again by several members on the DP to give answer on the positions you present, but all we meet with is a feeble, diluted answer that doesn’t remotely resemble a rebuttal worth of comment.

I noticed, by the way, that you once again avoided the meat of my comment, that is not an uncommon tactic of yours is it?

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

SMACKDOWN! DrKrbyLuv, there is NO recovery

from that thrashing which is possible.

#1 He correctly pointed out the flaws in the source you were using, and WHY they were flaws.

#2 He used the original sources, your source took from, to do it.

It doesn't get more definitive than that.

The only thing left for a man of honor and integrity to do at this point, is admit defeat, that you have learned something new, and now see the subject in its proper light.

Case closed.

------

Thanks Republicae, I've saved that one for future reference. Those quotes are awesome.

You are free to believe...

You are free to believe that the Federal Reserve is not privately owned but that doesn't make it so.

Here's a good video for you to watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ

END the FED before it ENDS US

Dude, did you just offer the film Zeitgeist as "proof"

of your claims? Are you serious?

I'll take your lack of refutation (because none is possible) to Republicae's dismantling of your contentions as an acceptance, though not explicitly stated, that you concede you have no game left, nor proof of anything other than yet more conjecture and fanciful tales spun as propaganda. He presents a point for point refutation, and that laundry list of YOUR OWN SOURCES disagreeing with you, and the best you can do is a link to Zeitgeist?

Seriously?

I don't think you even read his post. He isn't just arguing that your alleged proof of private ownership was fabricated, but that the man whose stature you relied upon to lend credence to your inane idea of yet another fiat currency scheme, not only didn't support such nonsense in his day, but he specifically railed against it. Your own source disagrees with you. Perhaps next time you should do more homework.

This is an insult. You are wasting people's time. You aren't even obfuscating now, you're just plain ole wasting people's time.