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Did Darwin Kill God?

I don't want to promote that neocon-running-for-office's thread about evolution anymore.

Here is a wonderful documentary, Did Darwin Kill God?, on how evolution and God can and should coexist.

Did Darwin Kill God? Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVLRZkNeclE&feature=related

Did Darwin Kill God? Part2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikA25j99udc&NR=1

Did Darwin Kill God? Part 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbFW35IWMP8&feature=related

Did Darwin Kill God? Part 4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3ZGmXDyG1c&feature=related

Part 5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mgIA0NZdMU&feature=related

Part 6 isn't worth watching.

You cannot argue that evolution occurs. It can be created in a laboratory, in our very own DNA mutation, and through observation of nature. Evolution does not equal atheism and it is a false dichotomy.

This issue is not black and white. It is gray. Both sides on the extreme should watch this series and realize the either-or fallacy.

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That's pretty much how

I see God. When I look into the endless sky, I see God.
When I feel anything, I feel God.

"Everything is not "God" - many things are man-made" does not fit with my definition of God. This is why I am a panentheist and you are a monotheist. I can agree to disagree on our definition.

To me, everything is really amazing. I have no idea how it all started, but that is the really exciting thing about life. You do not have to fear it because it is happening anyway. What would the point be? Why not explore and enjoy life while we are here. It just so happens that I am really into philosophy, politics, and science. These are the things I am interested in, and this is partly why I decided to get an account. Conversing and debating these topics is a favorite past time of mine. I grew up Christian, and when I was 16 I questioned everything. It was a major transformation in my life.

-Matthew Good

Mistake of such

a discussion is to reduce your rational faculty to a subservant role of rationalizing beliefs. If one knows something, it becomes knowledge, not a belief. Talking for hours does not make sense when miracles are allowed.

Yes, god and evolution can co-exist. Like reason and blind beliefs can co-exist too. But it can never be an equal partnership. Half glass of water and half poison IS poison. Half reason and half unreason is EVIL.

bien sur

They are a duality.

Evolution, or Science, provides a perspective from which to view our daily existence, quantifies our physical relationship to our environment, and provides means with which we construct artifices of order imposed on Nature.

God, or Spirituality, provides a perspective from which to view our cosmological existence, qualifies our sacred relationship to our environment, and provides meaning with which we construct artifices of order imposed on Nature.

What is your definition of Evolution

Micro-evolution or variation is true and all Christians believe this as God created a "Wolf" only and all dog creatures are variations of this .. but to say macro-evolution or a frog turning into a chicken is complete BS and not compatible with Christianity.

Just like all the con-artists you use some term "evolution" then prove it is true by variation but never ever prove insect to man evolution .. it is a total scam you perpetuating

Right... The Book of Genesis

Right... The Book of Genesis in the Holy Bible is clear enough on this issue. During God's acts of creation, Genesis consistently repeats an act of creation is perpetuated "after its own kind". Can macro scale changes occur in creation? Yes, but not by some "natural" mechanism. Unnatural acts through direct intervention, e.g. "Alien" (fallen angels *) manipulation of DNA, can almost certainly alter creation on a macro scale which was precisely the purpose of the biblical flood in order to destroy the corrupted seed.

* High intelligence directly manipulating

BS you can't argue evolution occurs

Name one Fucking mutation that ADDS information??

I am not touching this one with a ten foot pole

Are you a libertarian? That's all I care about. Well, that's not entirely true. It also helps not to be an asshole, but at least I can stay away from assholes :)

What I am trying to say is that atheists, agnostics, and the faithful can come together in our love of liberty, fighting the same cause and peacefully coexisting. Or we can at least keep to ourselves and leave each other alone, if we choose not to interact.

“With laws shall our land be built up, but with lawlessness laid waste.”
-Njal Thorgeirsson

I am a creation evolutionist...

but I am not an intelligent designer. The creator in my story is an unknowing force that has no power but to create and destroy from the laws that started God. These laws happen to be the same laws governing everything else. Nature.

I disagree that you "should" have both. My God does the same thing as atheist's nature. You do not need God for evolution to exist because through falsified experiments, across many fields, evolution has become the consensus. These days it is very difficult to become the consensus. You must know how to read measured information, and you must make the experiments repeatable. On top of that, if we are talking about evolution centered fields like molecular genetics, the science has become much more complex.

I agree that you do not need to be an atheist if you are an evolutionist. The argument that you must read the bible literally or you are going to hell makes no sense. It was Moses who wrote Genesis, supposedly. Why couldn't he have written allegories? Didn't Jesus speak in parables all of the time? Wasn't he supposedly God? So if God spoke through Moses to write the bible, why not in the form of allegory in some sections?

Maybe the scientific story of creation was too much for the people to handle at that point in time, so God softened Moses' words and made them more understandable. Who knows?! Not me.

-Matthew Good

Creation and Evolution

are completely polar-opposite. You cannot, while understanding both theories even a little, accept both as true.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Based on your definition

that may be true. Based on mine, you can have both. Definitions are not as set in stone as your english teacher may have you believe.

-Matthew Good

Then your understanding

of either is not as great as you think. Do you believe in good and evil? Are you for some reason afraid of answering that?

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Listen...

it is ALL about definitions. If my definitions do not jive with yours it does not mean that I have little understanding. I have great understanding. I have read both from the creationist point of view as well as the evolutionist's. If you read Ervin Lazslo you will understand more of what I mean by creation evolutionist.

I believe in right and wrong choices. Good and evil, to me, are not outside forces acting on individuals unless you say that Hitler was an outside influence on the psyche of the generals under his command. Good and evil are mental constructs within the mind that are developed throughout life. Whether something is good or not is dependent on the observer who has bias. I would say that good and evil can be known to an extent. It is something that reason must take hold of and shape if it is to be agreed upon. I can agree that it is wrong or evil to steal from another person because it is contains sound logic. You can apply it to all circumstances.

For reading on modern evolution, I would point to Endless Forms Most Beautiful written by Sean Carrol.

-Matthew Good

My point

in the very, obviously loaded question I asked is this: if you believe in good and evil you believe in moral law and we are all born when a sense of this. For example, it is wrong to hurt other people. This is a very big part of the Libertarian philosophy even and it is not subjective. So therefore, if we are all born with a sense of moral law there must be a moral law giver that is beyond our understanding. This philosophy very much fits with the God of the Bible. Also, if we do wrong we need forgiveness. Only God, through Christ offers anything like this through having a relationship with Him (relationship not religion).

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

The philosophy

also fits with many other creeds and laws. These are not true because they are written in a book 4,000+ years ago, they are true because they are logical. You cannot make a logical case that it is okay for you to murder your neighbor, unless there is an imminent threat. If there was no imminent threat there is NO reason to kill a person. It is theft of life.

Forgiveness is another thing. In my opinion, the only person you really have to receive forgiveness from is yourself. In any situation this seems to be true. If you steal, kill, destroy property, or lie you must be able to forgive yourself in order to learn and move on. All other forgiveness is secondary.

-Matthew Good

That's very selfish though

to only forgive yourself. What about forgiveness from others? If you don't care about any sort of forgiveness for the wrong you do to others it shows a lack of care toward others and is one sign of being a narcissist.

I see why you believe this though. Evolution is a religion of death and so the philosophy that follows is that no one matters, we are all animals and are worthless. Why should you care about others? It does not make sense why we are so different from animals and care for others according to evolution. Survival of the weakest most times prevails in our society. If evolution were totally correct Hitler would have been right in his actions - survival of the fittest. The white, blue eyed people should rule the world because everyone else is a minority... don't you see how wrong that is? Darwin directly influenced Marx who directly influenced Hitler and Stalin.

Before you bring up the crusades I will make sure you note that I do not agree with that either. Most the crap that went down in the dark ages was wrong and just a power grab by people USING religion for personal gain. It was not what Jesus stood for at all.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

I never said

I didn't care about the forgiveness of others. I was only suggesting that the main concern for forgiveness should be yourself. Many people will not forgive you, but if you apologize and fully mean it I believe you must forgive yourself and learn from your mistake first. I didn't think about forgiveness in this way until we talked about it during Sunday school at a Baptist Church.

I never said no one matters either, but thanks for putting words in my mouth. :-)

I help anybody that asks me for it and has proven that they can keep my respect. You obviously have many preconceived notions about the "religion" of evolution. It is not anything like Christianity no matter how much you wish it were. It is a scientific theory that directs scientific research. Christianity is a religion that directs social mores. Two very different things. Just because the Bible touches on how the Earth and animals were created doesn't make it literally true. There were many different ways man has written as to how the Earth was created. Can they all be true? And how do you find out which one is?

I am an evolutionist and find Hitler reprehensible. What he was doing wasn't "survival of the fittest" it was evil. If you do not believe in survival of the fittest, you haven't watched Animal Planet. God created creatures to eat each other and reproduce. Is that evil? God created some pretty horrific ways for certain creatures to kill each other. What would they call someone who could create something like the preying mantis? Once you mate you must flee for your life or the female eats your face while you are alive. I would have made them kiss afterwards, but that is just me.

And I hate it when people bring up the crusades... you can read a recent comment I left concerning that topic on page 4 if you are bored.

http://www.dailypaul.com/277830/believing-in-creation-and-ta...

-Matthew Good

"I never said no one matters

"I never said no one matters either, but thanks for putting words in my mouth."

Never said you said that. I said it shows a lack of care. It is just the fact of how the philosophy of evolution works. No one matters according to evolution... In fact we need to all die off so better/more evolved humans can be born.

"You obviously have many preconceived notions about the "religion" of evolution. It is not anything like Christianity no matter how much you wish it were.

Oh, I know it's not and am very glad. Like I said before creation science and evolution are polar opposite. The only thing they share is that it takes faith to believe both. You are the one trying to combine and accept both somehow. Yet, now you are saying they are not anything like each other, thereby agreeing with me on that point.

"And how do you find out which one is?"

Which one is back by historical fact?

"I am an evolutionist and find Hitler reprehensible. What he was doing wasn't "survival of the fittest" it was evil."

See there? You do believe in good and evil. However, he did believe he was doing right in the fact that he was furthering evolution and getting rid of people he thought were inferior. Yes, that is evil and there is nothing subjective about it.

"God created creatures to eat each other and reproduce. Is that evil? God created some pretty horrific ways for certain creatures to kill each other."

God neither controls animals or man. Animals use instinct and are not evil. Unlike animals, man chooses between good and evil. God is glorified by man's right choices, but the evil ones grieve His heart.

Also, I brought up the crusades to preempt it before you did as that is usually the next step for an evolutionist in the conversation. I don't like talking about it either.

So, you do believe in a god of some kind then I take it? Is he all knowing, all powerful? If so why would it take your god of evolution billions of years to create and destroy, as if experimenting very wastefully when it took the God of the Bible 6 days to create it all?

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

and the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life

...in Darwin's title suggests what?

WhIch RACE is FAVORED?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYHFzlFIiYo

(who's the neo-con running for office?)

Yea I'm sure as Darwin rots

Yea I'm sure as Darwin rots in hell he is thinking exactly that.

That's a bit harsh

and I'm no fan of Darwin.

πολλα γαρ πταιομεν απαντες ει τις εν λογω ου πταιει ουτος τελειος ανηρ δυνατος χαλιναγωγησαι και ολον το σωμα

Some poetry for the subject

Our founding families explained
that our rights from God were ordained.
But Darwin came in
and got rid of sin
and freed us from Liberty's chains.

catchy isn't it?

Here's another one:

I have a problem with God's standard of law;
I'll choose what's right and what's legal.
Since God did not make me, then I can't be wrong;
God Bless the HMS Beagle.

Stand up and walk like a man

You didn't come from a monkey my friend
You never swung from the branch of a tree
You were created by God just like me

: )

πολλα γαρ πταιομεν απαντες ει τις εν λογω ου πταιει ουτος τελειος ανηρ δυνατος χαλιναγωγησαι και ολον το σωμα

fiodax's poems

are tongue-in-cheek

Thanks for noticing! lol!

Thanks for noticing! lol!

Darwin was a eugenicist and so were his brothers and sons

It became all the rage in the upper class societies. Anything to come up with a reason why the poor shouldn't be allowed to reproduce and saving them only weakens the species. Even Roosevelt believed this.

"With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed."

[Darwin, The Descent of Man (1871 edition), vol. I, p. 168); emphasis added]

Darwin is the New World Orders personal GOD

No, the OT God..

is... "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt."

Darwin was posing a hypothetical. See... I can take things out of context too! Or am I?

-Matthew Good

Darwin

was probably a warning sent by God. Lot of misdeeds were going on in Darwin's time in the West.

donvino

...

Regarding this: "You cannot argue that evolution occurs. It can be created in a laboratory, in our very own DNA mutation, and through observation of nature."

This is not the point of argument, when you speak of what is done in a laboratory and observed in nature. Micro-evolution is embraced by all creationists that I'm aware of. Some people take issue with the concepts of macro-evolution and common decent. Evidence for micro-evolution is usually presented as if it demonstrates macro-evolution. It's an equivocation with the term 'evolution'. With regard to evidence, it refers to micro-evolution, but with regard to views being promoted, it refers to macro-evolution. The issue is whether or not the evidence justifies the views people promote, and that issue is rarely addressed directly, it's usually just assumed.

Re evolution, you make an excellent point.

I'm reminded of a book by Freeman Dyson: "Infinite in All Directions." I think it's funny how people on both sides can argue with such conviction based on, really, so little understanding we have about how the universe works and ties together - from the subatomic level out to the furthest galaxies... no less in both visible and non-visible domains. Just as sound, for one, is not visible although we can see its effect on matter, I think there's a *whole lot more* out there than what meets the eye.

I thought you might be interested to check out this award-winning documentary. (I don't know your religious beliefs, but FYI, while it doesn't concern religion, per se, I found it to subtly promote a Buddhist worldview, not that I thought it conflicted with my own Christian beliefs, at least re the material it covers.) I found it fascinating, especially the first half.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXuTt7c3Jkg

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

yeah..

It's notable that throughout history, the academic elite thought that they knew what was going on, and like a fad, society follows until the next fad comes along.

The video seems to overtly support some kind of syncretism, which is disappointing.