Converting Christians
I realize some people may have some Christian friends who fervently support the war in Iraq. I also realize this is a base that many of you want to tap into, so that they support Ron Paul.
Well I am a Christian who supports Ron Paul, and I figured I might put some of my own thoughts, and questions about politics and the war out here to help you in your battle to "convert Christians".
The first thing people have to realize is that if you want to convert some of these people you are playing on their turf. That means whether you are an atheist, agnostic, theist, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc. Whatever it may be, YOU are talking/debating about their religion, and not your own specific beliefs.
DO NOT LESS THIS TURN INTO A CREATIONISM VS EVOLUTION, or MY RELIGION VS YOURS DEBATE. That is the most important thing. If you do that, then you turn them off. There is a fine line so watch out.
With that said, I am not asking you to memorize scripture, or the "Christian argument" for why you are right. Just ask them some questions.
The war within one's self is one of the hardest battles to fight. Why do I support this, why do I believe in this. etc. etc. etc. It can tear up a person inside. That is why you mustn't be anxious to see them "turn" in front of your eyes. Let your questions seep in, and do the damage for you.
I have a couple of examples of questions for you. Remember it's how you phrase everything, so word your questions right and respectfully. Watch your body language, and your delivery. You can't be the one to get angry, and hot headed.
But would Jesus have supported a war on false pretense's?
If any Christian tells you they support the war. Ask them questions.
Does it promote God's glory, and further the message of Christ?
(to which some will respond yes, because now an oppressive regime is gone, so now the gospel can spread, if they say this, than ask, well how did Christianity spread under the oppressive Roman Empire?)
Secondly, while Israel went to war many times in the old testament, they had a God speaking to them through the prophets. Have we had any prophets tell us that they heard from God we are to go to war aggressively? (tell them to keep in mind about the Roman empire, regardless of how oppressive a government is.)
Ask them is the killing of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's the best way to promote Christ's message of loving they neighbor, and forgiveness? Tell them to also keep in mind, for every soul dead their is a potential that that, that person is now in hell. Maybe Jesus would have wanted him to hear his message about forgiveness, and mercy.
Ask them if Martyr's still exist in Christianity? and is it our duty to protect them? Isn't it God's will for when they will come back to him? And, if they want to go, and die for their religion, are you usurping God's will in their life?
God did say I came to bring a sword, and not peace. But isn't the sword he is talking about the word? Isn't it the word that has divided families, and nations?
After you have asked some questions. Fit Ron Paul's beliefs about issues into the framework you have created.
Christianity can spread from freedom, of speech, and religion. It is up to a person's own responsibility to "preach", or "evangelize" their faith. Ron Paul believes this is an unjust war because: it is not up to the president to decide for when we go to war. We were suppose to go to war with a declaration, and we didnt. etc. etc. etc.
You get the point. Feel free to use these questions, and advice. If you have any questions please post them. If you have any comments please be respectful. If you have any place where you think I am wrong, please send that to my attention. I am open minded, and want to learn.
So, that I can convert hard nosed Christian's like my Dad.
Christians in Iraq
We could also point out that many Christians have had to flee Iraq since Saddam was overthrown. There was a story about it on 60 Minutes recently and this has been reported in news magazines as well. Christians lives are now in danger since we have gone in with a pure Democracy rather than a Democratic Republic like we have here. The Republic part of our Democracy is what protects individual rights.
You can go to his website and see where he said he is no longer running for President. He is going to use the money he had left to help other candidates who are running for various offices - like congress! - who share his (and OUR) philosophy. He has star
It's about Submission
For years the Christian community in the United States refrained from participation at all in politics. Believing that it was not their place. Then the Christian coalition convinced them that their voice was needed to effect change. Rallied by the Likes of Dobson, jerry, pat and Chuck Baldwin (now a Paul supporter) They were sold a lie that the GOP was concerned about their values. The reality was the GOP, of which I have remained a member for 20 years this being the last, USED Christians to gain power with no intent on making the changes they promised. Twice they held the majority, twice they did not respond to those who sent them there.
Now as far as reaching the Christian Right a group I once would have been in the midst. You have to use Biblical reasoning:
On Israel- God has promised to protect and defend His people. When we take that as our job we imply that God will not keep his Word to His people.
On submitting to authorities-
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6 For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
1Pe 2:17 Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
In the past these two passages have been used to keep Christians from participating. In the United States The Constitution in the AUTHORITY. To support candidates that openly call to work outside the Constitution is to deny their clear Biblical instruction.
http://nocheechako-churchandstate.blogspot.com/
Hold them to their oath:
President
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
---"Christianity has not been weighed in the balances and found wanting. It’s being tried, found difficult, and rejected!" - Leonard Ravenhill---
unjust/diverse Weights and measures...
I am a Christian also. The Lord commanded in the Old Testament not to steal from your neighbor by using "diverse weights and measures". This stealing was done by using weights and measures that were purposely altered to miss weigh and miss measure grains and things like ounces of gold and such. To use altered weights and measures was and is in GOD's eyes ...stealing and theft...an Abomination...because it is. There is no difference when a farmer goes to sell his grain and a grain elevator owner cheats on the weigh scales or when the Federal Reserve Bankers manipulate interest rates and or the money supply, which devalues our money. The Federal Reserve is stealing the fruits of our labor which we have worked had for. They are also STEALING our inheritances...for the money our parents and grandparents have saved up has been devalued by the Federal Reserve. And also the interest that our parents and grandparents would have made by a higher interest rate of return in CD's and othe investment vehicles are lowered by the Fed...this is stealing the earnings that are rightly ours.
All Christians should consider these things by what GOD has said...
"Lev 19:11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another."
"Deu 5:19 Neither shalt thou steal."
"Lev 19:35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.
Lev 19:36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.
Lev 19:37 Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD."
" Proverbs 20:10 Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the LORD."
this government of ours is stealing the fruits of our labor, our money, our inheritance, our land, and our inalienable rights from us...it is time for that to change. May GOD bless us in changing these things.
2Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
As a Catholic, I can say we
As a Catholic, I can say we typically do not support the war in Iraq. The late John Paul II at least didn't support it. Our biggest issue is pro-life, and in order to win over a Catholic you should focus on Ron Paul being pro-life. If the war comes up and it turns out a Catholic is for the war, focus on something called just war theory and explain how the Iraq war was against Catholic teaching on just war.
Good Post
With Good suggestions!
Thank you!
one point on this
(to which some will respond yes, because now an oppressive regime is gone, so now the gospel can spread, if they say this, than ask, well how did Christianity spread under the oppressive Roman Empire?)
Our men and women have sacrificed to institute a Muslim government. It is beyond belief why a Christian would support this war. Saddam was evil in his own right. But there were a lot of Christians in Iraq before the war.
Stop this war and interventionism!!!!!
And I'm a evangelical Christian and I approve of this msg.
What if they say that Jesus
What if they say that Jesus spoke to GWB to go into Iraq? I believe GWB was reported in the British news of claiming exactly this, or was that just a spoof, sometime ago.
good point
To that I would say several things things.
Moses talks about testing the prophets, to see if what he is saying is true. Does their doctrine correlate with scripture?
Mark 13:22 " For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible."
2nd Peter 2:1 "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."
1st John 4:1 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
While this is relating to salvation, one must be cautious of, "prophets". The bible makes it clear that there are many false prophets.
Also, I would argue from a non-biblical view point that I can say, I am a prophet, and we should go to the Iraq war.
I take a very cautious, and pessimistic view of present day prophets.