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Mish vs. Denninger: Econ BlogWars erupt over Kucinich's 'GreenBacker' FED. Res. PowerGrab!

Now that Dr. Ronald Ernest Paul is the Chairman of the SubCommittee, the establishment Dems and former HR1207 'allies' ramp up their propaganda against the Free Citizenry, and seek to exert American Monetary Institute's Zarlenga/Ellen Brown(Web of Debt author)'s push for complete absorption of the FED into the Treasury, and giving the Congress the powers to print fiat notes, and emit bills of credit, further undermining a push for a truly open, free market monetary reform.

More dangerous road ahead, folks. It's gonna be a bumpy ride. Everyone is an 'economist' now; KRUDman and MADcow talk econ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YiyjO3y3WA

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http://www.businessinsider.com/dennis-kucinich-end-the-fed-2...

Flawed 'End The Fed' Bill From Rep. Kucinich Would Give Congress Near Unlimited Power To Print Money

Representative Dennis Kucinich has introduced a bill to end the Fed. Unfortunately his proposal grants Congress ability to create money at will for virtually any purpose. Kucinich specifically mentions full employment, stabilizing social security, and to "lend new money into circulation as authorized by Congress and to provide means for public investment in capital infrastructure".

In other words Kucinich want Congress to have the power to print money into existence for any reason it wants. Here are a few snips from Kucinich's End the Fed Bill that show what I mean...
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Unfortunately, it looks like Karl Denninger didn't even fully read it (perhaps?), and is FOR it! http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=175725

Denninger, now in my 'econ insensates' column. Oh Karl, you had so much potential...

mini-econ blog war to ensue. get ye'r popcorns out!
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/contrarian-take-dennis-kuci...

http://savecapitalism.wordpress.com/2010/12/22/blogosphere-f...

My dearest R3VOLutionaries, please be ready: the attacks against us and the Doc, along with the Mises Inst. & the Austrian School, are only going to increase as the perfect storm of the Dollar, commercial real estate, and the bond bubble collapse loom, and the ensuing civil unrest that is sure to follow in very near future in America.

Oh, 2011, you're going to be an interesting one, aren't ya?



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Regardless...

of whether or not this bill passes the process should be interesting to watch....

“The Internet is the first thing that humanity has built that humanity doesn't understand, the largest experiment in anarchy that we have ever had." - Eric Schmidt

I don't think people on this thread are being realistic ...

The bottom line is whether Paul will come out publicly with qualified support of this legislation.

Time will tell but ...

I don't see any other alternative for Paul.

He will reluctantly support the bill and suggest changes to the bill before he becomes a co-sponsor.

And he is the one that gets to dictate the changes since the bill will get worked up in his committee.

Regardless of what people here think about the bill, it is argueably constitutional and it brings accountability and transparency to monetary policy.

Yes, I understand that it gives congress a blank check.
Yes, I understand that it will most likely accelerate our digging if it becomes law.
Yes, I realize that this bill does not come close to realizing Paul's vision.

But, I still say he is going to support this attempt with stipulated exceptions.

I would be surprised if Ron Paul chooses political expediency

Besides there has been no nation in history that has made it work for more than 40 years before bankruptcy and insolvency. Most don't even get that far.

Dr. Paul has said, "The Fed[eral REserve] will end itself."

I think this House Resolution should be called the "Federal Reserve Bailout Bill."

Free includes debt-free!

That is not what I meant.

Paul usually has a check list.

If the items all get checked he supports it.

1. Is it constitutional?
2. Does it reduce taxes?
3. Does it increase transparency?
4. Does it increase accountability?

It won't even be in committee.

It expires at the end of this Congress.

If they don't co-sponsor it then, it won't be co-sponsored or debated come January.

For those who don't spend

For those who don't spend half their waking lives following Mish & Karl, they tend to agree 90% of the time. And when they don't, Mish is the one to trust, as he has much more concern for formal economics.

Karl's a treasure for his almost super human ability to dig through mountains of information and draw insightful information from it that others miss (or as he would put it, fraudulently abstain from mentioning), but he just flat out refuses to bother with much in the way of an economics education, insisting on anything from trade barriers to printing money to keep some "price index" stable.

While Mish is an Austrian extraordinaire.

I am all for the green backers!

If and only if (good math theorem wording for you there), they pass legislation to take away all disadvantages to those of us that would like to use gold and silver as money (repeal sales tax on gold/silver and legal tender laws). Then they must some how guarantee they won't double cross the gold bugs after they establish the green back (strongly worded amendment?).

Other than that I really do get entertained by anybody that claims the green back is the ticket for the freedom movement. "Heres the plan...I am going to force you to use this piece of paper against your will. But its ok...its for freedom you see!"

My Respose To Denninger

The operative words in Section 8 are: "To coin Money and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures." I agree that money issued by the Treasury does not have to be fixed to gold and silver and that Section 10 applies to the States, but Money issued by the US Government has to be fixed to something according to Section 8. This is why the Coinage Act of 1792 was necessary. It used gold and silver as a means to fix money issued by the feds to a standard weight and measure. Being that humans have used gold and silver as a means of exchange for 6000 years, it is natural and logical that gold and silver be used in this regard. This is why pre-1965 dimes, quarters and half dollars were 90% silver. Half dollars were later reduced to 40%. Now the currency is worthless. This IS the problem!

(and yes, gold and silver do have value because they are deemed so by human beings for various reasons, like everything else that has value)

Maddow should stick to civil liberties issues...

and Krugman's Nobel for economics is clearly as deserved as Obama's peace prize.

A fifth grader can understand that, if only one candy bar is available, it doesn't matter if there is one dollar or a thousand dollars chasing it; the is still only ONE candy bar. Demand doesn't result in capital formation unless the buyer is willing to pay in advance, and the kind of people attracted to this kind of bogus economics are not likely to want to do that.

madcow doesn't know the

madcow doesn't know the slightest about civil liberties. NO LIBERAL DOES.

Strawmen. I personally won't settle for anything less..

People don't go into Revolutions to Gamble and take what they can get, they go into them putting their very lives on the line to bring the system DOWN....

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm in this for the long haul. I won't settle for anything less than Lord Rothschild's hiney over this absolute travesty of murder and theft....

I want Rothschild and Ratzinger's ass in prison for life or entirely finished, for what they have done. Not just their minions....

I want to see the House of Rothschild FALL with Cardinal Ratzinger cowering before a Judge & a mob of enraged citizenry......

I don't want all their stupid pawns, I want them all in prison. I don't want Warburg put to treason, nor Ackermann, Bush & Blar alone....I want nothing less than Lord N. Rothschild himself put away so he never returns.

Now that, that is something worth fighting for.....that's something worth a full blown Revolution over to bring the King down....and slap the cuffs on everyone else!!!

That's something worth dying for...

yup, so true:

"Krugman's Nobel for economics is clearly as deserved as Obama's peace prize."

I suppose I too would be on SPLC's 'list,' if I refer to both of those cases as a diplomatic 'affirmative action.'

hell, I think the Nobel Committee lost all credibility when they awarded the same award that went to MLK, to Henry 'WarCriminal extraordinaire, NWO Russian Agent(as the lastest Nixon tapes revealed)' Kissinger.

I lost respect for

Dennis Kucinich with this bill, very disappointing.

"We can see with our eyes, hear with our ears and feel with our touch, but we understand with our hearts."

same here.

and further proof of a coordinated push for American Monetary Inst. and Zarlenga, Ellen Brown et al, is afoot.

2011 sure seems to be an even more volatile one; if none of you got any sleep this yr, better get some waterfall, hemi-sync type meditational acoustics ready. it seems our vigilance radar must stay far, far, far more alert, come next year. http://dailypaul.com/node/152779

what Have I been telling you

what Have I been telling you people about Kucinich for the past 3 years.. the guy is NO good period.

I'll be interested to read

Gary North's response to this bill. We all know he's no fan of "greenbackers" and his criticism will certainly be an entertaining and educating read.

Aside from having some neocon tendencies regarding the war of terror, Mr. Denninger also jumped on the "bash Ron Paul for earmarks" bandwagon. He's a smart guy with some good insight but I think that all to often he comes across as an arrogant know it all.

Ron Paul, for example, is so horribly against Congressional spending that he votes against many spending bills. But then he sticks earmarks on them, and justifies this as "well, I'm working for my constituents."

This sort of crap is the height of hypocrisy. He places a "no" vote that he knows will not have any effect on the outcome, but then he uses a non-voting, non-transparent mechanism to grab as much federal money as he can for his district.

I despise hypocrites and the reason Mr. Paul has garnered my ire is that he's one of the worst on The Hill in that regard.

Make up your mind.

If the current tax system is improper then its blood money. You either stand for it or against it. If you exploit the system you are the system, despite your claims to the contrary.

At least the Democrats, such as Dodd, Obama and Clinton tell you up front that we're the system and we think its good.

Ron Paul is the worst sort of mendacious jackass; he claims the system is corrupt and improper but he then exploits that same system to steal as much money from all of us as he can in order to "return it to his constituents."

We get the government we deserve, and we deserve this sort of idiocy because we continually send these fools back to DC. --K. Denninger

What is freedom? Freedom is the right to choose; the right to create for
yourself the alternative of choice. Without the responsibility and exercise
of choice a man is not a man but a member, an instrument, a thing.
-- Archibald Macleish

Which part are you quoting, which is yours, please.

I thing I agree with you, but I got confused.

Free includes debt-free!

My bad

Ron Paul, for example, is so horribly against Congressional spending that he votes against many spending bills. But then he sticks earmarks on them, and justifies this as "well, I'm working for my constituents."

This sort of crap is the height of hypocrisy. He places a "no" vote that he knows will not have any effect on the outcome, but then he uses a non-voting, non-transparent mechanism to grab as much federal money as he can for his district.

I despise hypocrites and the reason Mr. Paul has garnered my ire is that he's one of the worst on The Hill in that regard.

Make up your mind.

If the current tax system is improper then its blood money. You either stand for it or against it. If you exploit the system you are the system, despite your claims to the contrary.

At least the Democrats, such as Dodd, Obama and Clinton tell you up front that we're the system and we think its good.

Ron Paul is the worst sort of mendacious jackass; he claims the system is corrupt and improper but he then exploits that same system to steal as much money from all of us as he can in order to "return it to his constituents."

We get the government we deserve, and we deserve this sort of idiocy because we continually send these fools back to DC. --K. Denninger

What is freedom? Freedom is the right to choose; the right to create for
yourself the alternative of choice. Without the responsibility and exercise
of choice a man is not a man but a member, an instrument, a thing.
-- Archibald Macleish

same here,

haven't checked LewRockwell.com at length today. but, if he hasn't done so already, I'm sure Gary will put out a blurb soon.

by the way, Ellen Brown, whom Max Keiser once befriended and featured a few times, is a no show now, nor is his offer to have Gary and Ellen debate on RT's Keiser Report.

lawyer vs. economist. who wouldn't want to see that?

I love Max

but he baffles me sometimes. He's called Mr. North a
coprophagist. I've read a number of your posts BleuCream, you seem to be a bit of a wordsmith. But in case you've never heard of this word before the definition is as follows:

coprophagist:
Or: coprophile , a person with a fetishistic attraction for feces, viewing and/or eating feces, speaking of and/or joking about feces.

I do find this somewhat funny, a bit over the top, but humorous.

I also heard him compare Al Gore to Copernicus. That gave me a chuckle. Max does have a flare for the dramatic

What is freedom? Freedom is the right to choose; the right to create for
yourself the alternative of choice. Without the responsibility and exercise
of choice a man is not a man but a member, an instrument, a thing.
-- Archibald Macleish

Keiser, still good in my book. nobody in the econ world cracks

me up, as regularly as Max!

that's very kind of you to refer to me as a bit of a wordsmith; I aim to please, if not, at the least inform and entertain.)

thanks for the def. I think I had to look it up a while back when Max mentioned it:
http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/coprophagist
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coprophagist

and here I thought "bukkake" was the only term I had to look up to stay hip to the internet generation. lol.

my first thought when I heard the term? it was, 'hey I now know who the coprophagists are! the neoKUNTS! (why that word is so maligned in America, is beyond me; Briton chicks certainly have no problem uttering it.)'

seriously, I've wondered, from the way the neoCONs regularly spew & slurp their verbal diarrhea, do they know when they fart, which orifice it originates out of? After a while would they really be able to distinguish? Guess it's all ATM (something else I had to look up. now, the question is, is it embarrassing to have to look it up, or has sexual debauchery become so ubiquitous in the world today, that such inferences have become the norm?) to them.

there was like a whole mini-niche inside-joke econ-drama-war going on for a couple of weeks, a bit back, where Gary North and Ellen Brown went back and forth, recycled on lewrockwell.com, and Max throwing down the gauntlet, inviting them on to debate on his show, etc.

but, it looks like in the end, Ellen Brown shafted Max Keiser, and she hasn't come back on his show since. and, I think Gary stated as much, but didn't hold any grudges against Max.

I agree with most of Max's publicly observable core stances, except for his thing for 'public' healthcare, as he's obviously grown accustomed to the one in his new home, France.

but, not really holding it against him.

while, as Max himself admitted that the idea was not his own, him and Alex Jones together pushing for 'Buy Physical Silver! Crash JP Morgan' campaign, is one of the best, most effective, most successful, peaceful resistance by the Free Humanity vs. the Banksters. Even if the suggested outcome come to fore, I would say that at the least, the campaign's impact in a very noticeable way, put the NWO Wall St. banksters on notice: we're watching you, biaches!

I think if we stay true and independent, despite the cliche that 'of course, there aren't anyone in the world that we agree 100% on,' and frankly don't need to, we'll all come out alright in the end, if we keep exchanging ideas, and honing our solutions.

to that end, Max Keiser is a-okay, with me, at least. besides, how can anyone not crack up along with a guy who can spew coprophagist and CPI all in the same sentence? lol.

What if Max comes out in favor of the Greenbacks....

Will you love him then?

EVERYONE needs to not only be cautious, but be on guard for the amount of deceit and treacherous schemes these Globalist bankers pull. They'll pull in someone from your "team", sell them a bad idea & make it stick...and we'd all be none the wiser.

It'll even appear "good" on the surface, while giving them even tighter control...

just info,

I take good with the bad.

don't know any of these people in real life. just what we can publicly discern.

I'd say if you're solid in your ideas and philosophy borne of intense intellectual and personal self-reflection, nothing anyone say is gonna affect you, either way. so where's the big whup?

while I don't want to belabor the issue, if you're so inclined, you can track back to my past posts on how I discern and distinguish those that share, and cross-germinate similar core intellectual tenets, while also maintaining ideas that would seem counter intuitive, coming from the same person; my go to prime example is Webster Griffin Tarpley: love and respect his geopolitical analysis, and often economic analysis. Where I part ways with Tarp is his proposed solutions to economic crises, his 'all hail at the altars of FDR' and his obsession with public rail system and what I call 'infrastructure statism.'

now, does that put him in the same place as say... Bill KristolNACHT? I think not. And, such discernment should come pretty easy, and apparent, for those on DP by now, no?

besides this isn't some contest to see who I 'love' or respect. frankly, who cares? it's just an expression of a third party distant kinship with those that seem to be traveling a similar path.

no need to read into it any deeper, SimpleSam. Just info my friend, just info.

Good point...I don't openly trust Max Keiser or Napolitano...

....Nor anyone for that matter, given the amount of snake oil salesmen out there on the public trough.

I learned to be far more "discerning" long ago...but the gullible, sadly, may actually resort to worshiping some of these figures who can then *say something that sounds good* but does great evil...

Was Max alluding to North's rebuttal against greenbacks.

That North's rebuttal of greebacks amounts to telling us essentially that "shit stinks."

Free includes debt-free!

Zarlenga is a statist THUG and deserving of no mention....

This bill puts the whole Federal Reserve "Cartel" in Congress in charge instead, by nationalizing the bank.

http://www.mises.org

Kucinich is deceived by Zarlenga as Lincoln was....it puts the purse strings in Congress making it WORSE

The best and ONLY solution we want is the US Treasury take it all over....with silver & gold recognized legal tender....replacing the Fed with ZIP.

And full fledged prosecution for the opposition...

I think Deniger is right on this one.

Guess where DK's bill is going to get worked up?

The bill is constitutional and it places accountability on elected officials instead of non elected officials.

It's not perfect, but neither was the tax bill that Paul voted for.

Remember, Paul gets to "work up" this bill.

I bet there is a competing currency amendment attached before it gets out of committee.

And I bet presidential politics is playing a part in this bill or will play a part in it which is exactly what Paul wants.

Actually, in fact, the Kuch's bill is NOT Constitutional:

I did speed-read through 45+page Kucinich's socialist bill with a nice euphemistic title to appease us 'peons,' couple of days ago: sickened me to my stomach. though, I can imagine Webster Tarpley rejoicing somewhere, as my nerf ball cannon is being charged up...

Congress is only tasked with coining money (not funny paper notes), setting consistent value, accepting gold and silver in payment of debts. Though they can "borrow Money on the credit of the United States" it needs to be appropriated by CONgress. That is NOT same as emitting 'bills of credit,' aka funny money, which they are forbidden to do.
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Here's what the pertinent portion of the Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution actually says:

The Congress shall have Power

To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

[can look up the rest, at your leisure...]

** Clearly, the Federal Reserve and Bernake need to be punished: the Constitution explicitly grants CONgress the power to punish counterfeiters!!! lol. In a 'just' world that is, which we do not have, no?
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and,

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."

_____________________________________________

Since the Constitution is an EXPLICIT document that limits the powers of the Federal Govt only to specific enumerated powers, just because it forbids the State gvts from doing the same, does not open up Constitutional leeway for the Feds to assume to 'fill in the vacuum.'

It is UnConstitutional for the Congress to create fiat notes, period. Despite what these statists attempted to do with these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_Tender_Cases

Thus, Kucinich's bill is UnConstitutional. Period.

Actually Deniger covers this over at his blog.

Did everybody miss the fact that this is going to get worked up in the monetary sub committee which Ron Paul will be the Chairman?

No it won't. The bill dies at the end of this session.

It would have to be reintroduced after the new Congress is seated in January. THEN it will get marked up in the subcommittee.

Regardless, I don't see Paul supporting it. It is pure fiat. And it specifically outlaws private currencies.