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Creator of the Liberty Dollar Found Guilty

"Bernard von NotHaus, creator of the Liberty Dollar, was found guilty on two counts this morning in his counterfeiting trial at the federal courthouse in Statesville, N.C.

He was found guilty of making counterfeit coins and an intent to defraud. Sentencing will be held in several months.

The jury reached its decision in less than 90 minutes."

Coin World Story

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FBI /DOJ Press Release



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The Good Doctor Has Included A Provision In his H.R. 1098,,,

,,Bill, especially written to clear Mr. von NotHaus of any wrong doing:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-1098

excerpt: (c) Special Rule Concerning Retroactive Effect- Any prosecution under the sections stricken by subsection (a) shall abate upon the taking effect of this section. Any previous conviction under those sections shall be null and void.

The Good Doctor in 2012 !

beesting

I'll take this fraud any day of the week

these dollars are worth more than twice as much paper dollars..Boy the fed really hates competition -especially when these dollars have returned more than 100% as compared to the crappy fed reserve notes which consistantly lose value.

Hopefully these treasonous crooks at the injustice dept get exposed and go to jail

Government is supposed to protect our freedom, our property, our privacy, not invade it. Ron Paul 2007

We need to elect Ron Paul,

We need to elect Ron Paul, and End The Fed, so that this won't happen.

http://www.dailypaul.com/183587/why-end-the-fed

Jessie Clyde

Ron will commute this fellow.

Outrageous what the banker elite have done to our country and laws.

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves." William Pitt in the House of Commons November 18, 1783
"I know major allies who fund them" Gen. Dempsey referring to ISIS

Less than 90 minutes...

This jury was pissed at possibly missing American Idol?

to me counterfeiting is

to me counterfeiting is taking something with no value and fraudulently passing it as something of value. essentially stealing.

this man took something of actual value and sold it to willing people who understood what its worth was.

don't see counterfeiting here

That is a sensible approach, but it is not the law the jury was

tasked with determining a violation of.

Most jurors have no idea about jury nullification.

If you read the statutes he was charged with, there is little wonder he was convicted by the jury.

There's no wonder he was convicted in your mind and government's

Everyone else here disagrees.

I wish I had been on that jury.

He would be free.

This is really bullsh*t.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

Patience, patience, patience.

It appears the jury was not made up of his peers.
In any case the Ron Paul gold and silver coins I purchased are remarkable. As soon as he is pardoned I will receive my copper coins. I can wait.
grant

Actually, those stolen copper rounds are political speech

(And Bernard doesn't let you say "coins"!) I own some as well, but the government stole my time-sensitive political speech, and then the media basically ignored that aspect of the story. Now admittedly, our political speech via copper medallions isn't as important as a man like Bernard's liberty, but one would THINK the First Amendment still might matter to some journalists.

I have yet to see any interest from the media, and I have yet to see any response from my government to my demand that they return the stolen 1oz copper rounds. The true irony of all this is that I planned to use NONE of them as "money" in the classic sense of the word, since they were all going to be given as gifts. Apparently, some political speech is more equal than other political speech...

Easy defense Bernard von NotHaus

should have called Ben Bernake as a witness. Bernake said himself that gold and or silver WERE NOT MONEY. The U.S. Corp isn't circulating gold and silver currency. So what's the problem ??

Just one last kick in the nuts, then a final deathblow

agreed

agreed

His memory

is terrible on the stand.

Defend Liberty!

I wonder if Obama has a

I wonder if Obama has a suggestion box, I think the judge and the prosecutor should be assasinated.

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Find out what's really going on!
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"Your portal to reality!"

Touche!

To the downvoters:

He's Kidding. Irony Alert

/obvious

thats funny

good joke

Then you're no better than those you are against

I think the jury should have been better educated on their true role. Shall we murder them and their civics teachers also?
Please no calls for murder, even in jest. It's unbecoming.

Not to worry....

Ron will pardon him as soon as he takes office.

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves." William Pitt in the House of Commons November 18, 1783
"I know major allies who fund them" Gen. Dempsey referring to ISIS

This is perfectly understandable and reasonable from the jury.

He didn't have to use the word "dollar."

He didn't have to use a picture of Liberty similar to the Peace dollar design.

He intentionally made the coins to look like something perhaps the U.S. Mint would make.

Thus, yes, it is easy to see he was guilty of counterfeiting.

I'd have to look up the fraud charge specifically.

This is not about private gold and silver coin. If it is, Bernie made it easy for the Feds.

If he would have used a design NOT AT ALL like any U.S. coin, had he not used the term "dollar" then they would have had a much tougher case.

He set himself up for failure, in his attempt to make the currency readily acceptable. In short, he knew he was "tricking" people into taking the coins. (merchants that is) and so it is easy to see why he was convicted of counterfeiting.

Counterfeits, by nature, are almost indistinguishable.

If they are not almost indistinguishable, then they are not counterfeits. If you put a Liberty Dollar next to a Peace Dollar, anyone can tell them apart because they are significantly different enough that even a blind person could tell them apart.

Real money cannot be counterfeited anyway.

I can't believe you're suggesting that the decision was understandable and reasonable in a case where someone was creating real money and being accused by the government of domestic terrorism for it.

Regardless of any disagreements, anyone supporting liberty should support the sound money side, not the corrupt fiat government side.

This is NOT an issue of sound money vs. fiat money.

So there is no "do or die", "support us or else" false dichotomy.

Please, refrain from engaging in the same shenanigans and mind washing that the elites are so fond of.

No, your assessment of counterfeit standards is incorrect. Many printed notes are deemed counterfeit NOT because they are impossible to tell from real ones, but because they can reasonably PASS for real ones.

For starters, your standard of side-by-side comparison is not only wholly unnecessary, but entirely inappropriate.

It is unnecessary because the items minted by NORFED were BY DESIGN intended to be similar enough to US official coins so they would pass for official coins. Read the documentation from NORFED and watch their videos. EVERY intention was present to "pass off" these coins as legit - not legit in the sound vs. fiat sense - though that's what they sold adherents on - but legit in the sense that they were "official" and "looked official" as if they were minted by the US government. They intentionally used the denomination "dollar" and standard inscriptions found on US coins - namely a play on "In God We Trust" (Trust In God) and "Liberty." They contained the stamp "USA" as well.

If NORFED was merely trying to introduce a private currency they could have done so using NONE of the commonly attributed US Coin elements and made if CLEAR that they were NOT official US coinage.

But that was never the intention. The intention was ALWAYS to get the "Liberty Dollars" readily accepted - NOT because they were silver or gold, but because they resembled US coins close enough that a merchant or cashier would not challenge them.

Second, the side-by-side comparison requirement is inappropriate because there are NO circulating US coins of silver or gold, much less any silver or gold coins (or any other metals) circulating which are anywhere close to any of the denominations minted by NORFED.

Thus, there is nothing to compare them to.

They were intentionally designed to be VERY similar to US coins using VERY similar elements common to US coins. This was done so they would be more readily accepted and be able to PASS as IF they were official coins.

There was a clear intent to defraud, a clear intent to "mimic" and thus, they are counterfeits.

I'm all for private silver and gold currency. But do it properly and don't try to swindle people. (and we didn't even touch on the whole seigniorage issue)

Does the government have a monopoly on liberty?

How about on artwork of the Statue of Liberty, the words USA, Liberty Dollar, and Trust in God? Or does the government have a monopoly on making professional looking, liberty oriented money?

You are siding with a corrupt government.

You are attempting to offer the same government excuses for denying a person the freedom to put whatever he wants on his real money as long as it's not a copy. And, the bottom line is that the Liberty Dollar is not even close to being a counterfeit.

A blind person can tell the difference, but not samadamscw.

Do you support the government's claim of domestic terrorism too?

It appears you have some personal problems with the creator of the Liberty Dollar, which are clouding your judgement. Are you in the gold or silver business? Your arguments are so lame they sound like something only the government or a jealous competitor would come up with.

Absolute nonsense.

#1 - I do not side with a corrupt government. The government is not corrupt. Some of the people in it are. The government is the Constitution. Are you telling us the Constitution is corrupt?

#2 - I am not denying anyone freedom to put what they want on their real money. But any expectation that they can use elements VERY similar and reasonably similar to current US coins and NOT be charged with counterfeiting is unreasonable and unfounded.

#3 - The "bottom line" isn't that the LD is not close to being counterfeit. You can't just state something and it be so. You give absolutely no proof or justification whatsoever for your statement. I've explained that NORFED used design elements very common and similar to current US coins. Their website even touted this as a selling point because it would make the LDs more acceptable. Thus the intent was clearly there to play on the fact that most people do NOT have an intimate familiarity with US coinage to be able to tell that these absolutely were not legit. The idea was to hopefully DUPE people into accepting them if they were clueless, but optimally, these would be used in transactions with people who had a clue.

#4 - You give no proof a blind person could determine these were not official US coins.

#5 - Stop with the misdirection attempts. I do not support any claim by the government against NORFED related to domestic terrorism. Actually, I don't think that charge was ever filed in court. It was an off the cuff, poorly contemplated statement by an official with an ax to grind.

#6 - I have no personal problems with Von Nothaus. I disagree with his methods and I'm leary of his actual product. (I held one and it seemed way lighter and thinner than it should have been) But I do not disagree with his goals, and that was displacing the FRN and the FED with sound money and banking.

Can a blind person tell the difference between 1 dot and 2?

Wondering what you think.

"The government is not corrupt." - samadamscw

The government is not the Constitution, the Constitution is the law that the government is sworn to follow. The government is not following the Constitution.

The government is absolutely corrupt.

The title of your post is correct.

I see you've conceded the rest?

The MEN (and women) who hold official positions are sworn to follow the Constitution. SOME of them ARE corrupt. That I agree with you on.

The "government" as a whole, meaning everyone in every capacity under the Constitution, and the Constitution itself and the institutions it creates and limits therein, are NOT corrupt.

You made a sweeping generalization that was also inaccurate.

You tried to use that to paint me as somehow siding with the fiat money crowd. I have corrected your error, again.

Stop trying to paint me with your spin. My words stand on their own and no interpretation or "ulterior" meaning is necessary to ascribe to them. I've said what I said. If you still can't comprehend my statements, ask and I shall attempt to explain further.

Otherwise, it simply looks like you are trying to paint a picture of me, that simply is not true.

Not at all. Why reply to "absolute nonsense?"

I'm disappointed in you, you're taking the wrong side for the same frivolous reasons as the government.

I didn't take any side. I merely stated my opinion that I'm

not surprised on the verdict because the LD was designed to fool people.

You just can't accept that fact.

I Von Nothaus would have made coins that look absolutely NOTHING like US Coins, and/or not used the "dollar" denomination, then the Feds would have had no case, and I'd be defending him.

But he didn't do that did he?

He made "rounds" that were designed to fool people into thinking they were "official."

That's why he was convicted.