9 votes

Break the Islam fear mongering.

Obviously the media and govt is using the scare tactic that all Muslims want to kill American's to keep the war going.

I have also recenetly found out that Clinton has bombed Afghanistan in 98, which I don't think most Americans realize. This could have easily contributed to the Sept 11 attacks.

However, if you debate anyone about theses scare tactic, they use the media propoganda that the Qaran says kill all non-believers of Islam.

Thankfully I don't believe this and through my own independant research I think the truth is these statements were made in response to a religious war against aggressors. And that the second greatest sin in Islam is murders.

Not only have I learned that they believe in the prophets from Jewish and Catholic history such as Moses and Jesus, there's at least one passage that states that Muslims should not hate other religious believers.

Can anyone confirm this or have another way to clarify this for the average brainwashed individual?

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Muslims like to point out

Muslims like to point out that Jesus is named in the Koran.
As a prophet.
That makes him just another prophet.
Christians believe he is the son of God.

I personally see that as an offense disguised in a compliment, passive aggressive kind of.

Yes, it is true

The Qur'aan commands that there shall be "no compulsion in matters of faith" and that no state or government apparatus can push people one way or the other.

It also says, no worries, whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, or any other who believes in God and does what is right: all of them will be eventually granted God's merciful love.

For an easy-to-read transliteration there is The Magnificent Message, vols. 1 & 2.

Thankful for having freedom

Thankful for having freedom loving Muslims here expressing their love for liberty and exposing the lies handed to us by the main stream media.

Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto. - T. Jefferson rЭVO˩ution

"Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state wants to live at the expense of everyone.” - BASTIAT

Imperialism & Hate

Imperial empires rationalize that it is ok to steal resources and land while impoverishing and killing those who they deem less civilized. For example, Africa has been the victim of European imperialism for the past four hundred years because they were deemed to be uncivilized.

In this sick rationalization, the imperialists pride themselves in bringing civilization to the lesser human life forms. For example, the U.S. killed over 1 million Iraqis and scarred their gene pool with depleted uranium over bogus claims of WMDs. The leaders who lied were never held accountable and no crime was ever acknowledged, after all we removed a dictator and brought them democracy.

The corporate media monopoly has been on a non-stop campaign demonizing Muslims as being dangerous barbarians because of their perceived religious beliefs. In reality, the Muslims are brutally attacked because they reject usury and they are unreasonable in not accepting Israel's divine claim on their land. They rationalize that God wants Israel to have that land and only a barbarian would hold contrary beliefs.


END the FED before it ENDS US

Ben-Hur, = see again,

DrKrbyLuv, thanks for offering records with clarity. The zionists continue their games, the U$ury machine is ticking away, printing money, buying arms and soldiers, building settlements, importing man-power, chasing palestinians from their homes, colonizing their land, encircling with walls, etc.
All this was done before, to erase the foot-prints of the Apostles, and their descendants, its generational warfare. See the arrogance of the roman garrison officer in the movie "Ben-Hur". Its more than 40 years old movie, but the roles have switched in the meantime. History repeating itself. This time its the impostors posing as Israel, because the roman has become 'christian'. When the declared crusades failed the european aristocracy thought of another tactic,=> collect the ex'terra (& unwanted) population of jews and transfer to palestine, then say - "let you and him fight, ha ha, go figure". That is why "Holocaust" is so sacred in europe, you dare not question it, or you go to jail.
Then they talk of freedom of thought and speech when they make cartoons to tease the muslims. ha ha again.

Beck started weighing in on

Beck started weighing in on the Israel-Palestine situation, saying that Obama has distanced himself from Netanyahu by not being Israel's best friend and so forth. He also said that there would be change in the next few months and the situation won't look promising. And he also pointed out how the Western way of life is under serious attack.

I felt sick to my stomach so I turned it off and shook my head with all this propaganda being slinged.

Ugh Beck, the phony. He would

Ugh Beck, the phony. He would be happy to bomb Palestine, Iraq, Afgahn, and every other nation that isn't "friends" with Israel because of his blind support.

Blind support is never good whether right or wrong. Always question everything.

Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto. - T. Jefferson rЭVO˩ution

"Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state wants to live at the expense of everyone.” - BASTIAT

A good first step is

to do enough research that you realize 9-11 was not merely jihad. It had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with greed, economics, and geopolitical strategy. The real perpetrators of those attacks remain at large.

Yes, Time has come,

pseudonym, thanks, it a good point, and much time has passed since 911. therefore those Muslims those who reside in the west must be made to realize the importance of the Liberty movement, which provides a safe umbrella for all ethnic or religious classes. With the rule of constitutional law all rights are protected. This also provides opportunity to assist or join the 911-truth movement.
After the 2001 event the blame was thrown on some muslims from saudi arabia, accusing them of hijacking the planes and flying them into the buildings. Then the 911 report made it official. After the Patriot Act muslims residing in america really had to shrink in fear. To avoid coming under suspicion many muslim associations started condemning 'terrorism' more loudly than Bush & his gang. Bush & co had a good laugh. Any protest against false accusations would have been labelled as terrorism, or aiding and abetting it.
The charge of "aiding and abetting terrorism" is similar to the charge of "anti-semitism". Once someone is charged with it he is automatically considered guilty, and the treatment is very harsh and painful.
For the last nine years many articles appeared and videos with commentary were uploaded on YouTube that doubt the official story and explain different version-s, - much has been presented here on DP too.
It will be wise of muslims to join the Liberty movement of Dr Ron Paul that upholds the rule of law, and safe-guards individual's rights & property. Now muslims should gather their wits and assist those who want to bring the criminals to justice. There are many associations where people with knowledge and courage are taking the initiative, you only have to support them.
911 was really a catastrophic event, it changed our world so drastically, led to so much wars, killings, kidnapping and torture. Individual rights are being suppressed by many govts worldwide, and in America.

Well said

It's sad that Muslims had to shrink in fear. I was a neocon once and am painfully aware of the extent of my own prejudice. It was difficult for me to wake up and feel the shame of having made a cruel mistake. While I still object to certain parts of the Muslim ideology, and would fight against sharia law as intensely as I would against any other form of oppression, the fact is...Muslims have been framed and are suffering unjustly now.

People who are unconsciously racist and support these wars also cannot have real peace in their hearts, to the detriment of their own lives. The only thing that can heal us all is truth. And you cannot promote truth without liberty...so the only bright future I see is within the liberty movement.

Bright Future,

thanks for raising hopes. Your comments are very encouraging, I posted your link on another thread of DP.

"...so the only bright future I see is within the liberty movement".

I think

...this thread is going to be very busy

I think that I could never live in a Moslem country. For me the society and culture is too alien to me. That being said, I wish them well but they have to realize like everyone else that the universe does not revolve around them.

I would of loved to visit these countries in my lifetime but since the inception of all the instability in recent times this will not happen. Fifty years ago or so would of been a better time to visit there. ie. less mistrust imo.

With the influx of Moslems immigrating to the West, tensions will increase as the economy worsens from my viewpoint. These people like all immigrants today come to the West, but now the good times are coming to the end. I think many will go back eventually. I have spoken to a couple of Moslem store owners in passing and they seem to be regretting their investments in the West. ie. small businesses - too many hours and high taxes.

p.s. http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=292&catid=8&subc...


Ask yourself this. Can you

Ask yourself this. Can you name a single 10 year period in the past 1000 years that a western military power hasn't occupied a part of what we refer to as the middle east? How would we feel if we constantly had a foreign military presence here? How would we feel if the middle east propped up dictators to rule over us and when we start to resist, label us as terrorists? The more you understand about the crusades, the more you will understand what is going on now.

Here's a good video that doesn't directly answer your question but should help you out... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy3KDYE5KQE

2nd & 3rd sentences valid, others ridiculous

Your 2nd & 3rd sentences are valid and worth using in any argument with a Red State Rudy Worshipper. But the others are ridiculous.

A great portion of European history involves throwing back the Islamic tide. It was not for nothing that the Balkan Wars of 1912-1913 were called the "Last Crusade."

Spain's 800 year Reconquista, Austria's 300 year war against the Ottoman Turks with their capital twice besieged, Russia's 300 year war against Tartary, Montenegro's 500 year standoff against the Turk, and Suli's indominable 400 year resistance until their bitter end in 1819.

During this time, European incursions into the Levant were brief: 200 years for the crusades, 20 to 40 years at a time for outposts like Tunis.

The historical comparison, therefore, is ridiculous.

"Cowards & idiots can come along for the ride but they gotta sit in the back seat!"

Reality, no complexity.

JerseyRP, thanks for your post and the opportunity to contribute along-with others. Exchange and discussion reduces strangeness or removes fear of the un-known.

Truth is only One. No detail, mystery or complexity here. False'hoods and errors could be many in numbers, or form groups of cults and sects. Truth remains, and is only One.
Increase your knowledge and do proper study, you still retain the choice / option / freedom to accept, reject, or test what you find.
There is no harm in knowing, it only increases awareness, and offers a choice. Consider knowledge as money for a moment, the more you have it the more choices you have, makes you feel richer.
If you really want to learn about Islam start reading the Quran, - get a copy with a word index, or search online, and anyone who calls himself Muslim could assist you, if he understands the Arabi language it would be better, because some translations have errors in them.
Malice, slander, or lies of the media or anyone else does Not change Reality, only the liar falls into sin, not because of error but conscience deliberation, hatred and aggression. This attitude only shows an aversion to truth, and searching for faults in Muslims and Islam. They search for splinters while having logs in their eyes or self. Actually, either the media is unaware or concealing that there is Not one Muslim govt in the world today. A few falsely claim to be 'islamic', while others are only assumed as such.

I'm willing to answer questions anyone

might have, if I can. I'm no scholar, but I am a Muslim, and have lived in the Mid-East for about 30 years.


Defend Liberty, for Liberty
Vote for President Ron Paul 2012

What are Muslims praying about 5 times a day?

are they written texts that you recite & meditate on in your head- or is it personal interaction with God or the Prophet- like a conversation? Either way seems like it would require a much larger attention span than I've ever known personally. Do you think some Muslims just "fake it" and are letting their minds wander like many Christians do while they're sitting down and standing up and sitting down and standing up in church on Sunday?

qoco has aptly described the technical

aspects of the 5 obligatory prayers and how they are performed. qoco is also right about the difficulty of maintaining perfect concentration during all of them. It is a struggle with one's self, not only to concentrate during prayers, but to actually complete all of them on a daily basis within the prescribed times! It is what I think of as my own personal jihad (struggle for God's sake).

Prayer, IMO, is exercise for the soul and spirit. If one remembers God in a conscious, practiced fashion on a daily basis, it becomes much more difficult to forget the "Golden Rules" of most great religions that enjoin morality, peace and justice on all (see Liberty Defined, ch. on Religion), and as such it becomes much more difficult to commit, or accept as normal, violations of those rules. Prayer is a daily refresher course to strengthen ethical values. It also exercises your body too, although it's certainly not vigorous it does stretch and keep in use leg muscles :)

Prayer is not so much having a personal conversation with God, as it is maintaining a relationship with God. Supplications are the personal requests that each person might ask for i.e. asking for protection, health, guidance, etc.

As to faking it, one can not fool God, only themselves. A useless exercise I would think and in my experience most Muslims agree with. They just won't pray if their faith is not strong enough, they don't try to fool God. Of course hypocrites can be found everywhere so who really knows but God.

Hope this was helpful. Peace :)


Defend Liberty, for Liberty
Vote for President Ron Paul 2012

Based on the tradition of the Prophet (saws)

The obligatory, five times a day, prayer is recitation of the Quranic text and supplications as performed by the Prophet (saws) himself. Performed in the same manner as he has performed it and this includes Arabic language, motion and thought or state of mind. But, absolutely are you right about concentration! Although, it is not advisable to observe prayer until your heart, mind and body are not fully committed, man is man after all. (here one can start making sense of alcohol prohibition in Islam, hard to perform prayer five times a day when your mind is not clear) It takes a great deal of submission and effort. The illustration of Homer Simpson at church comes to mind. :)

People of different backgrounds really do relate on more than one level and only through dialogue can we even begin to realize this.

Thank you- excellent reply :)

I've always wondered bout that. I admire the dedication involved. We should all commit such time and effort in those things we believe in : )

pls explain, 9:5

ksa4, thanks, hope others take up your offer and gain some knowledge or clarifications. DPers may find it easy to discuss with you because you are an american, been on DP for a long time, and lived in the Mid-East, and most important you call yourself a Muslim.
There is a verse in the Quran oft quoted on forums to scare people, # is Repentance-9:5. Pls study & discuss and post clarification. Thanks.

This link offers a detailed

This link offers a detailed verse by verse explanation of the circumstances surrounding the revelation of that chapter.


Quran Commentary,

Qoco, thanks for the link to commentary, it is detailed, he clarifies the terms and conditions, and the situation at that time.
But as with other translations here also the word "mushrik" is Not made clear, usually the english words idolator, pagan or disbeliever is used. Its very important to understand what "shirk" means. Best is to seek it within the Qurani text.
Read the same word/subject in 9:28, and 5:82. Clarity increases with 12:106. Here is a link for those who wish to read online, has original arabi with more than one translation, helps in comparison. http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/

I would translate "shirk"

as 'refuting the word and will of God' through actions and words.

I would also say that any quotes that people use to show how barbaric/violent/etc. Islam is, need to be understood within the context of the situation/time in which it was revealed, as the links and comments above point out. The same can be said for the Bible, which has an equal abundance of the same type of quotes available. I would imagine the Torah has also, but I've never studied it at all.


Defend Liberty, for Liberty
Vote for President Ron Paul 2012

re - focus "Mushrik",

ksa4liberty, thank you for your response. Your first sentence is right but general in meaning, not definitive. It will help understanding if you add 15:94-95 to the numbers mentioned above. The mushrik is a specific kind of kafir, more tricky. But not as subtle as monafiq -(hypocrite).
The meaning of words do not change with time or location, it remains universal, for all times.

My understanding of "mushrik" is a person

who has gone away from God through acts and/or words that refute, negate and even fight against the words, laws, and/or will of God. I wasn't aiming for subtlety of meaning, but a general understanding, which is what the majority of people have and try to apply to their life.

Again, I'm not a scholar with a deep and intricate knowledge of Islam, however I know that "shirk" means in essence a denial of God's Singular Presence and Power over all, and as such is the most egregious sin we can commit.


Defend Liberty, for Liberty
Vote for President Ron Paul 2012

Very Close,

thanks. But he has Not gone away, this is a person who stays in while still having the negative qualities of the person you mention in the first two lines, above. It could be because of ignorance, or following the traditions of their fore-fathers, or what is carelessly taught in religious schools. The Apostles came with reminders only, to remove what is alien, false, incorrect, harmful, etc.
None of us are scholars, learning on any subject comes from attention, reading, focus on the particular word that you want to study, and want to know about.

In the second para you wrote & I copy - quote, ["shirk" means in essence a denial of our Creator's Singular Presence and Power over all, and as such is the most egregious sin we can commit]. Very True, with slight editing.
This will be understood if you read verses on name-words, e.g. 7:180, 7:71, 12:39-40, 53:23. Better if you read a little bit of the context too, the before & after.

I didn't mean the person committing

shirk had gone away physically, but he is munharif or deviating from and/or not submissive to God's Word and Will.


Defend Liberty, for Liberty
Vote for President Ron Paul 2012


thanks, you understand well, but I think you have as yet not read the verses mentioned above. Then the Word and Will will be clearer, that there are rules for names, we need to honor them, without translation, this is what is required of Muslims, to hold fast and bear witness to the True only, and this is what is meant by "Shahadah".

I can only suggest to read

I can only suggest to read and try to understand within its context. My understanding is that the verse deals specifically with the "disbelievers" of the Quraishi tribe in 631 AD, but I could be wrong.