24 votes

If Ron Paul would let market "run wild," why don't big businesses support him?

Must of us here already know that a system of corporatism requires people like Obama and McCain for protection, but as usual Tom Woods (and Scott Horton) provide an articulate answer, in this case to a question that is hardly ever asked: If Ron Paul is such an extreme "pro-business" libertarian, why does he get all his donations from individual donors but hardly a fiat dime from the corporations?

http://youtu.be/flGqhegixkg

A good issue to discuss with leftists

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I would dare guess that it is because his anti lobby position

the corporations hate. Take away their power to lobby and you have taken away their power, which for most is as precious as their money. They want to control how the consumer base acts and without the power to lobby congress to vote in favor of their pet projects then there is little in politics that they care about. I may be wrong, just my take.

Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
If they hate us for our freedom, they must LOVE us now....

Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, an

Take away their power to print, & you will discorver...

Nothing. Nothing stored behind the curtain. Abandon ship? Pirates will board any ship afloat, even theirs ain't.

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

What these guys don't realize

What these guys don't realize is, if you take away lobbying power -and- leave the federal government's monstrous power in place, of course these businesses will be trodden upon. That's why the removal of lobbying power -and- the shrinking of the federal government must go hand in hand. It is difficult to get it through the heads of these people that Ron Paul is advocating for both things, which in turn -favors- business.

Wild & Scenic Rivers (of liquidity) be Dammed?

Go! Witness the creation of money. Witness, "Legal Tendering." Be astonished! Go!

Here is my brief outline summary of the "Legal Tender" system card carrying players with rap-scillion sheets:
Go to the top of the mountain of debt! Fed Inflates Itself Beyond "Alice in Wonderland" ... $2 Quadrillion 03/03/2010

Monopoly Boyz put a hold on their "Legal Tender" river of promissory notes. They fear! Folks warn't paying! Instead of loaning freely to any dang fool, they
"tightened underwriting policy" near as I can figure. They only loan to themselves. This will continue until faith & confidence return to getting more loans... Or is that nonsense? Will it require folks able to pay for the use of those promissory notes?

For all that are convinced that what I am explaining is utter nonsense, I commend you. It is. I am telling you honest as I can figure, our system of "Tar Nation Credit," is nonsense. "Carbon Credit," is more of the same. The whole "Legal Tender" system has us poor folk believing the oddest things.

  • Tar is money?
  • Oils backs money?
  • Carbon (gas, diesel, oil, tar, carbon, diamond) is scarce?

Our entire Tar-Nation is awash in a system of credit. Debt. Loans.

History forewarns us what happens when you trade goods & services for broken promises:
♞ Fall Of Roman Empire! ♞ Mandates Broke Silver. 05/21/2011

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

Best Guesses

1. Big businesses are "big" because they receive regulatory and tax advantages from the government. A free market would increase their competition and reduce their profits.
2. Corporations are run by managers who are risk averse. They do not want to support a candidate who, if he loses, might result in blowback. That's why they donate to both parties and donate $0 to candidates whom they perceive have no chance of winning.
3. They won't donate to Ron Paul because Ron Paul will not promise them a fat contract once elected.

What do you think?

Fascism and National Socialism

In such a system corporations and government work together. Necessarily, that includes removing those who preach breaking up the network.

There are actually

5 types of roads systems in this country. city, county, state, and federal. the only road system that even has to do with the federal govt are the interstate highway system. So the others do not even apply to the conversation. So lets look at the interstate highways and how you should pay for them. You need to go no further than the monitary system of this country. Right now we have a federal reserve system that is put in charge of printing money. For the printing of this money they receive interest. so right off the top of or money there is a cost that is shaved off, Then the next people to recieve the money which are the federal reserve banks. They hold the money at the begining of its introduction into the economy. Therefore they hold the money before it is "fractioned" through fractional reserve banking thus it is at its strongest purchasing power at this point. Then these handfull of elite banks loan it to the countries banks at a low interest rate again they shave some of the value off the money. Then the banks who then loan it out are aloud to "fraction" it. This is where your money really starts losing its value and again there is interest shaved off as these banks loan out the money. This is how your money enters the market place. So no lets say there is no federal reserve banking system right at the start you knock out the feds interest and the elite fed system from taking there interest that is a huge savings in itself so if the tresury prints the money and the congress votes on hos much money is to enter the market that leaves the government in charge of bringing the money into the system. most people will ask well how would they bring the money into the system if they dont have the federal reserve system to do it for them. This is where you get your answer to the interstate highway system and government buildings and any other federal project. They print the money (I would rather they coin it myself). the federal government should build federal projects with the money when they buy materials or pay for labor the money enters the markets. So basicly the government uses the money first interest free and brings money into the market in one fel swoop. So the people do not even need to pay for the projects they would basiclly be free to build. You would use these projects as the vehicle for bringing the money into the system. The thing they would have to pay close attention to is not bringing to much into the system at one time so as not to bring on inflation. You would want this to be a slow moving system (a slow and steady stream of currency injected). To me this would be a better way to do our monitary system than the way we do it now and think of the jobs that would come from the companies that would bid for these projects. I personally think corperations should be outlawed. All businesses should be sole propriators. If people wish to invest in these companies that is fine I have no problem with a companies selling shares to investers but why do shares have to be publicly traded. Why cant the stock market be privatly owned and decentralized. It might take selling shares to get the capital to be able to handle large projects. If a company cheats investers that is why we have a court system. cheaters should be put in jail. This would make larger companies responsable for more than just there stockholders. They would have to be profetable and there would be no bailout for them so stockholders whould be interested in being profitable also to protect their investment. This is how I think a far system would be but Im just one little guy in Missouri.

Raging Rivers of Debt!

Please consider my summary of the Monopoly Boyz hold on their Fed System of "Legal Tender." It will help your writing. It will save you a heap of time describing utter nonsense that masquerades as our monetary system. It is a very brief outline with references.
Fed Inflates Itself Beyond "Alice in Wonderland" ... $2 Quadrillion 03/03/2010

You covered a lot of material. I will address a few lines of credit to help you out.

You are indentured. That is, you are put in debt by the very system you describe, & worse. My comments are indented (pushed to the right; away from the margin).

--- Some of your comments annotated by Mark Twain ---
Right now we have a federal reserve system...

    1913, the Fed established itself. Established by them the eve before Christmas Eve, 1913.

... that is put in charge of printing money.

    No. The Fed does little physical work. Their work is politely credited as, "fiscal." Other names apply, but are not polite & seldom get credit.
    Central Banks Commiting Chomos? 05/26/2011

For the printing of this money they [the Fed] receive interest.

    $15 Trillion ledger error! Mentioned the interest payments. You failed to include $15 trillion dollars. They call it, "National Debt." It goes by other names. Again, not polite.

    "US Bureau of Engraving" of the "US Treasury" prints our green cash (euphemistically known as money). Mystically the green cash become, "Legal Tender" debt as it is gifted to the Fed. Next, the Fed uses this cash gift to but US Treasuries... & anything else that suits them.

... "fraction" it. This is where your money really starts losing its value...

    "Fractional Reserve" allowed banks to create credit 10 times more than their deposits. Bank credit promissory notes are the vast majority of our euphemistic "Legal Tender" system. Some argue, "All!" Again, ain't polite.

    Rather than make-believe "Legal Tender" or "Governmental spending into existence..." What do you say, we work hard to mine... or craft... or service real value. Then we sell our goods & service for other items of value...
    Such as gold & silver?

This is how your money enters the market place.

    This is how less than 10% of your "Legal Tender" (aka: cash) enters the absurd debt-basd septic-liquidity system. Other credit promissory notes enter via your signature on a bank loan (ledger entries). But, I repeat myself.

Our entire Tar-Nation is awash in a system of credit. Debt. Loans.
♞ Fall Of Roman Empire! ♞ Mandates Broke Silver. 05/21/2011

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

jaseed's picture

These road projects...

really do bother me...for more than one reason.
What's going on with "NAFTA 'super' Highway"?
"Trans-Texas Corridor"?
So much land taken through "eminent domain". Should we trust their reasoning?

“The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.”

– Thomas Jefferson

Excellent point

You can expand that argument for just about all of Ron Paul's positions. It's always big business vs. the individual support he receives. This includes the military industrial complex & servicemen/servicewomen, banks & savers or the mainstream media & bloggers etc.

If men are good, you don't need government; if men are evil or ambivalent, you don't dare have one.

Because big business has

Because big business has bought and paid for its monopolies. Ron Paul is a threat to those monopolies.

I essentially agree

Corruption of the system has made lawmakers cozy with certain special interests: Oil, car companies, unions, investment bankers, and on and on...

I wonder the same thing exaclty.

Such as that Bloomberg report a couple of days ago which omitted Ron Paul as one of the republican candidates for 2012.

And Bloomberg claims to be a business network.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

Honest money is the ultimate regulator.

Big Corporagovernment is already running wild, living in a masochistic fantasy land where they force us all by violence to accept their fraud.

Honest money that is regulated by nature, outside the manipulation of any man's will (aside from our will to accept it as money), forces everyone to appeal to the market (the owners of the money), instead of the politician in order to get value to flow their way.

Big business, the kleptocracy they own, and Ron Paul

The perceptive and erudite libertarian scholar Albert Jay Nock prefigured Prof. Woods and today's libertarians when he wrote that "business doesn't want a political system that will leave business alone; they want a political regime that they can USE...they would rather see the Republic blow up than to be left to their own devices in the market"!!

Sound familiar?

PEACE AND FREEDOM!!
David K. Meller

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is not to be attacked successfully, it is to be defended badly". F. Bastiat

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, finally they attack you, and then you win"! Mohandas Gandhi

Adore this man

Unvarnished truth and impossible to escape simple logic.

Been a big fan of Tom Woods since I heard him speak in 08.

The Abuse of Greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power. - Shakespeare

I don't understand how roads

and streets would be built without public funding.

What about public schools?

Water works?

Public Library?

Police Departments?

Fire Departments?

Even the internet came from public funding what about that?

I suppose then that you would agree with States that are selling Highways to private companies so they can collect tolls at a profit?

Also privatizing the water supply. In California they have water shortages but only because a New York billionaire bough up water rights and now controls it.

Georgia is running out of water too!

I suppose you must like that there are corporations with deep pockets that will buy it all and create a monopoly on water and food supply.

Monsanto is buying up seed companies then genetically modifying the seeds and getting patents on them. After which they burn the hairloom seeds creating a monopoly on the food supply.

I suppose this is what you are in favor of...

Federal vs. Local Juristdiction

All or most of the questions you asked are for local or State Jurisdictions to decide. Ron Paul is in the Federal Branch of Government...and these powers were NOT enumerated for this part of Government to decide (DC). in short, Fire depts. Etc.. are not the business of (Dc) Nancy Pelosi or Ron Paul, but your local City Hall. I am sure the good people of your town know how to handle these issues, but one size does not fit all.... so how about side walks or police in Your Town be an issue you deal with in local elections?

Here you go, eilif

Bruce Benson: Presenting the Case for Private Roads

http://davidkretzmann.com/2010/12/bruce-benson-presenting-th...

Economist Bruce Benson provides a fascinating introduction to the possibilities of private roads; a far superior alternative to the road system created and managed by government today. Private roads would reduce traffic congestion, provide new road alternatives (more competition = better services and cheaper goods), and it would certainly increase the convenience of road travel. Remember that government did not originally create roads; as Benson mentions, there was a wide array of private roads in the U.S. before the government took them over and monopolized the management of roads. A private road system would be incredibly beneficial to society, but any serious movement to re-privatize roads would probably be met with considerable opposition from legislators who exploit roads as pork project targets in their districts.

reedr3v's picture

eilif, it is very good that your are asking

questions; but to gain knowledge you also need to do independent thinking and some hard work. Texts, videos, podcasts of free market theory and implementation are widely available; the freedom movement is doing its best to make self-education easier than ever.
Your general hang up is common. From kindergarten we're taught to trust in authority, mind the rules, accept the status quo, learn the dominate history/economics/citizenship etc. Just as kids believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, they "believe" in the government as an all-powerful benefactor.
As adults, even though government failures are ceaseless and dire, mainstream media smoothly guide their audience to the next new thing, not questioning the catastrophes.
Notice how failed memes are never parsed, just "disappeared."
One day Global warming and swine flue pandemics and Taliban and cholesterol etc. are hysterical dangers, only the feds can save us! The truth starts to leak out about slanted data, non-existent pandemics, revised recommendations, new terrorist targets: BOOM the stories stop cold. No accountability, no learning from failure, the media clamor and guide the public to new sensationalism.
There are good specific answers below, and links to find out all you can cram into your skull. I'll briefly deal with California since I live there.
Who sold California's water "rights?" Who but government caims power to sell and license and decide who gets what? Do they do a good job? Ask California farmers. Ask the people flooded because of Army Corps of Engineering failure in New Orleans; and the same federal bureaucracy planned the system of dams now flooding the South. Huge centralized bureaucratic systems ALWAYS fail. Only the belief lives on that the federal bureaucracy is competent.
The same is true for every government category you bring up. All have dreadful baggage due to inept and corrupt bureaucracy. The world can be so much better, more just, peaceful; we the people have the creativity, productivity, knowledge. We just need to rid ourselves of government impediments, waste, and violence that permeate every facet of life.

I have read and studied quite a bit more than most

I have in fact read the constitution, federalist papers and a lot of American History. I even know that George Washington was not the first American President, John Hansen was. I know about the straw man, the Corporate State, Sovereign Citizen Upper Case C. admiralty Flag versus the US flag down to the nuts and bolts on how to lawfully maneuver and win in the courts etc...

I am well familiar with the Fed, Jekyll island and the (moneychangers) banks.

But why don't you tell me how we get roads built if not with public funds paid for by taxpayers?

What about public schools, police departments, fire departments and all the rest of social benefits?

Even Ayn Rand went on the public dole when she ran out of money. Are we all here going to be so dead sure that we will never need for anything or are a lot of us destined to die in the streets in squalor?

What are we to do with those that fail somehow because of illness or injury that can't make it. There will be a lot of those because we are not all of equal talents so are we to become like the survival of the fittest and step over them that can't keep up?

Just tell something enlighten me.

I hope you are keeping off the public socialist roads and internet.

I suppose back to the days of the Robber Barons, slave wages, swetshops, no benefits, 18 hour days, Children working in slave conditions. Let us just forget that the best of times was when 49% of labor was unionized.
Now we are losing everything they fought and won for us.

It is the same corporations that now are controlling our elected officials making them pass laws that benefit them to the detriment of the public at large are they the ones you want to own everything lock stock and barrel so we must pay a toll to them for everything we do?

Just please tell me?

Where is the effort eilif?

What solutions have you already come across eilif? What solutions have you been able to creatively envision? Show some of the effort.

You claim to have done much study already so you should already have a plethora of potential answers at hand to your own questions. You claim to have spent lots of time at mises.org. there are more resources there than I could hope to cover in a lifetime, yet all you proffer not a sinlge idea or analysis from mises but instead the only thing you mention in response to the mises suggestion is the logical fallacy of an irrelevent ad hominem attack on a deceased author (who by the way never had anythign to do with Mises or the Mises Institute). First learn to recognize logical fallacies eilif andf then avoid the. Then make some real effort eilif.

Instead of asking others to do your thinking for you and give you answers, try thinking of possibilities on your own first even if you have doubts about the practicalities of what you come up with.

With any minimal effort at all you should have a multitude of potential answers already. Where is the effort eilif? Simply typing your questions into google yields many, many thousands of resources available for free. There are also many, many thousands of youtube videos and animations providing huge spectrum of potential alternative answers to these questions. In only six seconds of searching "libertarian answers" I found this ready resource discussing alternative possibilities to eilif's questions : http://www.server.theadvocates.org/ruwart/categories_list.php

It is the quintessential example of foolishness to claim to have already done so much research and study yet, at the same time eilif is unable to produce even a single possible explanation for discussion that takes no more than six seconds to find; and there are thousands more such resources providing a whole range of creative possible alternative answers to eilif's questions.

Eilif is fully capable of doing this on his own. Why are you preventing yourself from doing so eilif? It logically begs to question whether you are being intellectually lazy or have an ulterior motive to seeking understanding eilif - like perhaps trolling for arguments rather than understanding. Show us some minimal effort eilif.

To obtain understanding requires thinking on your own eilif, and not simply having others recite answers for you.

Let it not be said that we did nothing.-Ron Paul
Stand up for what you believe in, even if you stand alone.-Sophia Magdalena Scholl

What are the answers eilif?

Please tell us what explanations you have found in your search eilif; What freedom possibilities you can envision.

You have a great mind. Use it. Be creative. Simply asking other people to explain everything for you is either intellectually lazy or implies an ulterior motive like perhaps trolling for debate rather than seeking understanding. Especially for someone who claims to have already put forth so much effort and done so much extensive research, and yet cannot even proffer a single possible explanation for his own questions when tens of thousands of resources are available at your fingertips providing a myriad of alternative freedom possibilities to the very questions you ask. (one of my favorites: http://www.ruwart.com/Healing/ruwart_all.html).

If you have done such serious study, you should already have a plethora of answers and alternatives to your own questions eilif. You should be able to explain it to us. It is one thing to claim you have put so much effort in already ("more than most"), but your questions indicate a lack of effort. Show us what you have learned from your efforts. Give us a few of the multitude of possible epxlanations that already exist to the questions you have asked, and explain what you find yourself unable to comprehend about it and what creative thinking possibilities you have already come up with in your efforts to understand. Show us some of that effort you have done.

Explanations for your very own questions exists in a plethora of materials available at your fingertips. Tell us what explanations you have discovered. Tell us what you have been able to creatively envision as possible answers to your own questions. Show some of that effort you claim to have already put forth. What your stumbling blocks to understanding them are, and what freedom based solutions can your creative mind can envision on its own to overcome your your inability to comprehend.

Eilif claims to have put forth lots of effort already, but the substance of his questions logically makes one question whether eilif has not put much effort in at all.

Let it not be said that we did nothing.-Ron Paul
Stand up for what you believe in, even if you stand alone.-Sophia Magdalena Scholl

Hansen was not the first "President of the United States"

He was the president of the Continental Congress. Not quite the same thing at all, really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hanson

reedr3v's picture

eilif, it seems to me you didn't read

my response very carefully. Yes you learned selected history lessons well; others you pass by with no thought at all.

Every practical function taken over by government has been a miserable failure causing incalculable ongoing misery. You are bypassing all those failures as inconsequential. The highway system was built to accommodate military transportation at times of war. School curricula was dominated by government to primarily teach obedience and loyalty. The police are subsidized by the feds in order to equip them militarily. Now local departments have tanks and helicopters and major military hardware -- and by G. they use it on citizens more and more. Go down your whole list -- it is a disaster for the people that they ever allowed the federal government to take over the monetary system, policing foods and limiting our access to wholesome locally produced organic foods vs the subsidized factory toxic stuff they prefer; you are stuck in time still worrying about stuff that happened long ago. Everything is way worse now due to federal control. Look at the endless war and militarization and power elite control and loss of liberties.
Look at the people most "served" by government, the welfare or the managed native Americans, all kept dependent and impoverished for generations; that's what the government wants for us all: dependency and helplessness, poorly educated and obedient. And the health monopolies are entirely government constructs that plague most Americans with chronic ill health due to the official burn/drug/cut preferred and official modes of medical "care."
THINK!

Social Benefits

As per the fact that you are well read, I am sure you are familiar with the legal maxim that a benefit is not conferred on one who is unwilling to receive it. As such, there is no obligation to receive any social benefits, including fire department.
The extent to which we might having policing services depends on the community. Some communities might be content having "volunteer" policing services (like volunteer fire fighters). As such, there would be no standing police officers simply looking for trouble, where there really isn't any, but needing to justify their job/existence.
Other communities might feel it prudent to have one officer for every 2 citizens... Hey, if the community can raise the funds for it without imposing on free citizens, and they feel such a force is warranted, have at it.

Public School Funding

In a free society, children belong to the parents. Parents are responsible for their children. Not the state.
In today's society, it is as though children are wards of the state, and we as parent have the privilege to raise them, so long as we conform to their guidelines. And yes, I get the whole 14th Amendment citizen, and realize that is probably the root of our seeming loss for justice in the courts.
However, back to the basics of education, this is not the default function of the state. If, in deed, I wish to delegate the function of teaching my children to a community run school, then I better pay that person/school entity for their services.
But to think that Joe down the road, without children, or who has made the effort to teach his children himself should be compelled to pay for the education of his neighbor's children is directly contrary to the principles of freedom.
I understand that you are well read, and thus I am sure you are familiar with the UN Declaration of Human Rights. And thus I am confidant that you know that every child has the right to an education... AND THAT IT IS THE PARENTS SOLE DISCRETION WHAT THAT EDUCATION / CURRICULUM SHOULD BE.

Roads

I will tell you about the roads. When the British regulars met their countrymen (the founders of this nation) at the North Bridge outside of Concord, Massachusetts, they were on a bridge in the middle of a road built on land donated by John Buttrick. We know that Buttrick advanced and yelled at the regulars when they started to pull up the planking on the bridge because he considered it his own, though there is also a record of a town lottery organized to build a replacement bridge later, and the townspeople of Concord committed to build and maintain a stone wall in exchange for Buttrick's donation of the land for general use. There seems to be little or no taxation involved. But nevertheless they had a good road and a good bridge.

The point is that you don't need taxation for such things.

Let's not talk about public schools. They are a disaster. But schools, police departments, and fire departments can certainly function without taxation.

Yes, you need an independent and community minded population, and we don't have it...precisely because of people who think, like you, that such responsibility belongs to some imagined "social benefit" and we have to be taken care of by our merciful overlords. I've got news for you. They're not merciful, and we may end up destined to die in the streets in squalor, but it won't be because there wasn't enough taxation. (Writing this makes me wonder if you are a supporter of Ron Paul at all---though I think I've seen you posting on the DP for a long time. Where did you get these crazy ideas about the social benefits of taxation?)

The corporations can only do what we let them do or what we empower government to help them with. It is only the sanction of their immoral activities by the government which makes them so powerful. This is the true story of the "robber barons." The robber barons were the ones who were able to harness the most government subsidy/corporate welfare, plain and simple. Read up on how the railroads were built and its relation to the American war of succession.

Ayn Rand on Public Dole

I fail to see how Ayn Rand going on public dole has anything to do with this. Yes, perhaps she was the ultimate hypocrite. So what? Does that itself negate the validity of what she said? Are we caught evaluating the massage based on the messenger? If someone makes it clear to us that 2+2=4, and then that person is discredited for whatever reason, should we discard the statement 2+2=4? Feel free to do so... your choice.
Furthermore, I might speculate how different it would have played out had there been no welfare in the first place. By implementing welfare in the first place, individuals generally feel relieved / alienated of a prior intuitive drive to assist their neighbors / community. Lord knows "communities" don't exist anymore... just co-habitation. This RP campaign is re-igniting the drive towards local community participation. This is awesome!!!

Right of Way

If I may, on the issue of roads, I would offer the following:
In a free society, the state is obliged, in the establishing of counties and roads, to ensure there is a right of way for the people to go from one place (i.e. our home) to another (work, friends, shopping, etc.). The extent to which this roadway is paved or maintained is arbitrary.
The quality of the roadways directly affect the economic well being of a community/society. As such, the local community might decide for themselves if the road should remain a dirt road, be a gravel road, be paved with tar, or paved with gold.
However, should a community decide that a road should be improved at all, none should be compelled to make a contribution, for the hermit should be allowed to be free on his own domain, without compulsion to pay for the desire of someone else to drive on a road paved with gold.
Note that the expressways are not obligatory for a state to provide, and are thus privy to collecting tolls. Tolls on expressways do not impair or negate your ability to exercise your right to travel from point A to point B. The back roads may not be the most quick, but they are there should you need them.