13 votes

What Are RP's Thoughts On Hydrofracking?

I'm guessing his opinion would be something like "companies are allowed to do what they want on their own land but if they affect others then they can be sued and can be forced to stop". In the case of hydrofracking, companies are leasing out other people's land and then basically poisoning it (assuming people's fears about hydrofracking are true).

So while I know RP is for small government, I wonder how that would work in this situation. Is the idea that companies can do anything until it's proven that what they're doing is dangerous? What if it took years to prove something like that and by that time, the damage was done (and was irreversible - since the toxins used in hydrofracking are supposedly non-biodegradable)? Plus big corporations have a lot of money at their disposals to hire the best lawyers or start smear campaigns, etc.

Note that my question is not specific only to hydrofracking. Even if hydrofracking turns out to be safe, there can always be something else that is dangerous to the environment.

Anyone know if RP has addressed this type of question?

As an aside, I am a big RP fan and absolutely plan to vote for him. This is just one topic where I'm not sure where he stands.

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Bump...for kevink I believe

Bump...for kevink

I believe this is your first post.

________________________________________

All I have to say on this

All I have to say on this matter is:

what is stopping anyone with a little money from going out and buying 100 gallons of oil and dumping it in the nearest stream?

egapele's picture

Excellent question, I am in NC and fracking is a huge issue

right now. This whole issue goes straight to Ron Paul's point on property rights:

“The freer the market is and the more respect you have for private property, the better the environment is protected.” ~ Ron Paul

Here is a video of Ron Paul on the environment from four years ago. It goes without saying that he'd answer the same exact way today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTr50dREplg

Basically

It is none of the Governments business. If an act causes harm to somebody then that somebody can sue and the one causing harm should be 100% liable.

The Government's role is to ensure a fair court system.

Someone may argue that this will not stop fracking (or anything else) because the damage would have already been done. However, take into account that the current system certainly does not stop these and other damaging practices and I would argue encourages them due to corrupt regulations designed to let the corporations get away with it.

Severe punishment for causing harm, on the other hand, may just stop these actions or at least reduce them much more. Another point here is that it is the person doing the harm that should be sued - not only the corporation he or she works for.

So when you say

"Another point here is that it is the person doing the harm that should be sued - not only the corporation he or she works for."

Are you saying that the driller, tool pushers, deck hands and other rig workers who do the work, as well as the CEOs?

Also you admit that it wouldn't stop fracking and you are right. They will keep doing it and their lawyers will cover their arss. But to say "well they ain't stopping it anyway as things are" is not a valid argument. If government is corrupted then you change the government not just throw it out and let the corporations have full control.

As far as the courts go, they are the ones who give corporations status as individuals with all the rights thereof when in fact corporations should not be able to exist at all.

The person(s) responsible should be liable

Then a jury should determine this on the basis of evidence laid out in court.

The Government should ensure the courts are functioning according to the law (unlike now).

Only this way will the bad practices be reduced/stopped. More Government always leads to more immoral deeds. The Government should stay out of trying (pretending) to fix things and should just ensure the system is lawful so people can sue for damages.

What you seem to miss is that the Government helps the corporations get away with it. The Governments normally work for the corporations (the elite) and not the people. Only when the people demand and ensure that the Government works for them will it be fair but often the people want the Government to give them something for nothing and that is a license for the elite to make the Government work for them while pretending (lying) to work for the people.

Through history governments have turned into tyrannies, then people wake up and have enough and then they support some other Government or leader who promise to give them something for nothing and then the whole process repeats. That is why the sole role of Government should be to ensure liberty for all the people.

Right...

Because as of right now, the regulations don't stop polluters from polluting....they'll do it any way and may end up paying a paltry fine LATER (again, after the damage is done).

Throw a few CEOs in jail and watch how quickly mega-corps 'regulate" themselves...

Excellent points all around.

Just for further information.

Currently the court system favors corporations because of prior precedent giving the "greater good" superior leverage in the eyes of the court over a simple nuisance suit.

Secondly, any and all industries that accept regulation by the FEDS are given in return an "immune from liability" clause within the regulation.

Can anyone say "moral hazard".

God Bless.

The drill baby drill crowd

The drill baby drill crowd does not understand the issue completely. Republicans are supposed to be for private property rights. While Marcellus Shale fracking is not a public utility and does not have the power of eminent domain, a neighbor who chooses to frack will directly affect you. The big problem is the third parties who are hired to dump the toxic waste are illegally dumping in streams, abandoned coal mines, and everywhere else they can find. Of course I could sue for damages in court but the damage is already done. You can't just bring back drinking water once it's contaminated.

I think RP should say that fracking is needed, but do it in a responsible way.

I know RP says there are too many regulations, but actually this industry needs more oversight as they ruin the local roads and hire third parties who dump poison in our streams. They need policing. The question is how to do that.

from his very public stance on pure free market principles:

more than likely, 'let the market decide.'

If and WHEN fracking destroys and pollutes property, the victims have EVERY RIGHT to sue for damages, and the company responsible is 100% liable for the harm, pollution and other property and health-related harm and damages.

regardless, what most liberals fail to consider is the reality of the fact that unlike a Joe Citizen individual who the EPA are more than likely to send in a SWAT team to threaten, intimidate or possibly murder for the slightest of BS 'illegal' NOT-'law' EPA 'regulations,' with large corporate predators who are obviously the ones doing the fracking, would be sued, instead of being SWAT raided first.

so either way, even under our current however disgustingly fraudulent 'judicial' system, the 'legal' remedy is always the same: lawsuit.

besides, in a supposed 'free society,' which we're obviously not, but for the sake of argument, let us assume our 'judicial' system actually works, therefore there should be no prior restraint on actions of a private party.

so until a crime has been committed, govt should have no recourse, period; almost all EPA 'regulations' are color of law 'precrimes' just as if FCC were to put prior restraint on the press to specifically dictate what they can and cannot do. though obviously, like all facets of govt, they utterly violate our 1st Amend. as FCC itself is UnConstitutional, but for the sake of argument, again.

so whether EPA sues those companies doing the fracking, or the citizens suing the fracking companies themselves, it's the same.

in fact, considering how the upper echelon of ANY govt 'regulatory' agencies are almost always 100% staffed by former industry insiders that they supposedly purport to 'regulate,' I'd posit that a lawsuit result would be considerably worse for us the citizenry, if the EPA themselves were to 'sue' essentially the hand that feeds them, aka their own masters, than say if individuals or a class action lawsuit were to occur against those disgusting environment destroyers.

as such, me with the Doc on this.

Predictions in due Time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGDisyWkIBM

"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it's realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy." - Dr. Ronald Ernest Paul

The whole "let the market decide"

argument is bunk. Sorry to say. But if you just put that plan into motion right now then you would see a free fall of our environment, our freedoms and our morality.

At this point of the game it would be ridiculous to allow the corporation run the show as your market decision would end up.

We Will Know When RP is POTUS

Till such time, know this:

http://www.gaslandthemovie.com/

Unions or no Unions the environment is relevnt when it affects YOU!

This is not a labor issue..it's greed and gargantuan corporate abuse enacted upon innocent homeowners, and their wells.

Many who support "fracking" (and I spell it w/a "k") do NOT rely upon wells for their water..rather they use "municipal" water, hence their lack of concern and the NIMB attitude.

"Beyond the blackened skyline, beyond the smoky rain, dreams never turned to ashes up until.........
...Everything CHANGED !!

http://www.truthlandmovie.com

http://www.truthlandmovie.com

please explain to me...how does a stimulation job performed at 14,000 feet effect your water well? There are multiple layers of extremely thick iron pipe between any stimulation fluid & your water source...and this pipe is all surrounded by cement. Do people not think about this before they run their mouths? And, it's not greed...lease land owners make RIDICULOUS money for their land. And, if there is some dumbass who doesn't, it's their fault for not negotiating a good payout. Lease owners in Texas are millionaires for leasing their land out to oil companies.

This is a really good subject

but I think Dr. Paul would feel to much of these types of things end up on the presidents desk, and they should not in a sound, Constitutionally- run society.
He knows once we get back to what we had, A more Constitutionally JUST court system and the American people have other ways of dealing with these types of issues, with no federal help what so ever.
States have laws that protect their citizenry, if two states fight each other, then the Supreme Court should not get involved unless the states have a Constitutional crisis over the issue which they dont.
People make this up to be extremely bad and then demand it be handled on the federal level far away from locals, when the libs dont like the results. Instead of refighting it and winning, they demand the SCOTUS get involved and then the outcome is usually worse for them!
The feds cease the issue/opportunity and use force to complete what IT thinks should be done and that is where we get all the problems.
The feds should stay out of it unless it is an international issue with Canada.
We have anti trust laws that have been being used by large corporate behemoths to keep out the little guy and the American People, when designed to do the opposite and protect the little guy.
I think he would agree they should all be abolished, then an honest free market and its own citizenry could take down these corporate atrocities, at NO tax payer expense.

"The larger the problem, the more local the solution should be". Ron Paul

imo

"OH NO! He has a SON?" Neoconservatives and Liberals EVERYWHERE!

Rand Paul 2016

gizzy and fracing

I am from Western Pa and any company fracing, should have to set aside a few million dollars to help property owners within a mile or two of the well so IF they have problems later, they get something for it, WITHOUT a ten freakin year lawsuit.
fracing can and does effect groundwater and whoever does it is responsible for the results. are they held responible? NO!

Theres nothing wrong with "union land" gizzy.

My entire family on all sides is from Western Pa. Gas wells have been getting fraced for decades.
Im sure you think the wonderful oil company will "take care of its employees", JUST like the coal company took care of my 16 yr old grandfather who dug coal in water up to his knees.
Or just like BP took care of the folks on the Gulf Coast not so long ago.
Of course thats all obamas fault to right?

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

also, i want to add...if

also, i want to add...if ya'll are so against fracing in the northeast...how about you don't use any heat next winter & tell me how that works out. Go chop you down a bunch of trees & just burn firewood all winter & then tell me how big bad & evil the oil industry is. Something tells me you'd either change your perspective, or freeze to death.

funny . . .

I and many of my family members have done that for years and it actually works pretty well.
It takes work though.

Here's an idea in Texas speak. Hows about you go get you some money and then all y'all put it in an account and then all y'all take that dern money and pay the folks for f'in up their property/wells. ya hear???

Isnt that how it sounds?? :)

Heres an even better idea. Grow a set and have the guts to get your dumb ass on their property and let them know who you are and that you f'd their wells up and their water is now ruined and see how many of you dumb asses make it out alive.

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

well....maybe your state is

well....maybe your state is just a sh*thole? I dunno. I may be a bit out of line for saying that, but, It's odd that this issue only occurs in your region. Fracing has been going on all over Texas far more than your region since it was invented, and we don't have any problems. So, i think your region is just looking for handouts from the oil industry. I honestly wish we would just pull out of your region & take the jobs from the ungrateful people of that area. And...there is something terribly wrong with "union land". The very idea of a union is a joke. People in union regions have a fu*ked up mentality...and can't seem to understand that's the reason their facing the biggest economic meltdown in the current economy. The south isn't hurting...we add jobs each & every day. Texas is booming...we have more jobs than we can fill. Why? no union...

you sound like

the typical southern bojanglin, bullshitin redneck.

You think our region is just lookin for handouts cause your too freakin stupid to realize that the geology in Texass might not be the same as other places so fracing might just cause issues elsewheres.
FYI - I threw in "elsewheres" to help ally'all understand what I'm saving. ;)

By the way, "the south" is hurting. I live in Georgia. There aint no jobs unless their low paying ones. And the union down here is a joke.

So, let me get this right. You come from the state that gave us LBJ and Bush and you think WE'RE f'd up?
you need to go to becks or hannitty's website. your in the wrong place here if you think unions have screwed this country's economy up and its not worth my time to try and explain the reasons why our economy is screwed up, but good ole boys like you are one of the main reasons.

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

oh yes...that's right...i've

oh yes...that's right...i've been a member for over 4 years, but i am on the wrong site. yes, let me go to beck & hannity's sites...because that's my crowd! And, calling me a "good ole boy" is funny as shit...if only you knew me personally...haha, that statement would make you laugh too.

look, i don't wanna fight with you. have a good day & i hope your region has better luck in the job department here in the near future. If fracing is so bad for Pennsylvania the people just need to come together & urge their state reps to outlaw it in their state...they did in NY.

regardless...take care & keep on loving liberty.

For a libertarian perspective:

Environmental Problems, Libertarian Solutions | Walter Block
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmiknXoow7c

Free includes debt-free!

I think Dr. Paul would arm himself with facts

Before making decisions about a resource that is so vital to our economy.

http://energy.utexas.edu/index.php?option=com_content&view=a...

http://www.truthlandmovie.com/watch-movie/
http://www.spoiledthemovie.com/

Some of the larger Companies have great information on their websites about the drilling and fracking process.

I am sure there are many other resources you can find as well.

Attention All Delegates! Break your "Binds" and vote for the Constitution in Tampa! Ron Paul 2012

gotta chime in on this...

considering i work in the oil & gas industry i feel the need to chime in on this...

first off, it really annoys me when people spell it "fracking". There is no "K" in hydraulic fracture...therefore, please spell it fracing. Sorry, it just shows how uninformed people are when it comes to this just because they watched some obviously skewed documentary.

2nd, hydraulic fracturing is not dangerous. The process has been going on since 1947 all over the united states. Fracing has never been under attack until it made it's way into "Union Land"...the northeast. I assume unions hate the fact that the oilfield never has been & never will be unionized...so they want to destroy it. Fracing does not deteriorate the water source in any way. Fracing occurs THOUSANDS of feet below the water source. Also, methane has been present in Pennsylvania's water source forever...as well as other North East states. No fracing can be done in the state of NY, yet people have methane in their water...so how did that magically happen if fracing didn't cause it?

Hydraulic fracturing is simply the process of pumping a water & sand mixture (a slurry) into the wellbore to prop open the zone that will produce gas or oil. Yes, Chemicals are used...the main chemicals we use are friction reducer (similar to KY Jelly) & Gel (creates viscosity & is plant based, created from Guar beans). We do also use corrosion inhibitors, bactericides and clay stabilizers. These are to prevent the casing pipe from corroding, bacteria from forming in the formation & to stabilize the clay in the formation. As I said...these chemicals are no where near the water source & it would be impossible for them to ever work their way up to the water source. For instance, the well I'm on as i type this...our production zone is from 14,000 feet to 8,500 feet below the surface. Our water table in this area is roughly 200 feet below surface...obviously FAR from the area we are fracturing.

check out this documentary for another view on the fracturing topic...
http://www.truthlandmovie.com

and as i said, the unions are just pissed that we have an industry that will never accept unions, yet our average employees start off making 60k+ their first year. The average frac employee makes 80k-130k depending on their experience level & which company they work for.

Disingenuous...

You are being disingenuous. Much more goes into the slurry than that. "...the main chemicals used" is a highly suspect statement as, according to you, there are others that aren't listed in your post and that companies don't make public as they are "industry secrets." "These chemicals are no where near the water source" is an absurd statement as there's no way you are aware of any and all fracture mining operations and any and all underground springs. We (PA) now have the most endangered waterways in the country thanks to operations like this. This is not a union issue, it is an environmental and property rights issue. I (and many others) don't want that stuff in our water, public or private.

Even if everything you said was 100% accurate, you can only speak to what you have done and witnessed. There are many companies where profits trump all else and they will do the minimum to keep their profits high. A friend of mine is a water quality specialist with the PA DEP and he's constantly fighting these companies about the location of their drilling. It doesn't help that they don't have the money to properly test all of the sites.

On a side note, the biggest asset to turn my friend onto Ron Paul was him seeing how the DEP doesn't stop pollution but allows companies like yours to pollute to "acceptable levels." Regardless of what is in the slurry, if it wasn't there before, and you leave it there, it is pollution.

NOTE: I am not advocating violence in any way. The content of the post is for intellectual, theoretical, and philosophical discussion. FEDS, please don't come to my house.

I do know

that there are different types of fracking (I use the K) and that yes, it's been going on for decades. I am from Pennsylvania, and I am AGAINST fracking.

In addition to the risk of water/environmental contamination, there is mounting evidence that fracking is closely related to earthquakes and some states/areas have banned fracking for that reason.

Military-type psyops has been used here in Pennsylvania in an attempt to get 'the people' to accept fracking. Am I the only one for whom this raises a red flag?? If everything is on the up-and-up, why the need for psyops???

Oil Executive: Military-Style 'Psy Ops' Experience Applied
http://www.cnbc.com/id/45208498

O.P.O.G.G. - Fighting the attempted devolution of the rEVOLution
Ron Paul 2012...and beyond
BAN ELECTRONIC VOTING!!

Research on fracing

Gizzy, great to have you with your knowledge on this forum and thanks for the links on the truth about fracing. A lot of people (including me) were mislead by Gasland and their unscientific bogus findings, etc.

Studies show fracing doesn't cause significant earthquakes when fluid balance is maintained:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22h...

Studies certainly showed fracing doesn't cause water pollution. I just watched the TruthLandmovie.com, and in 2009 extensive study showed no affect on water during the 60years of fracing. So this research can be cited as a credible source.
Plus, http://www.truthlandmovie.com/the-facts/ is great.

The Truth is people are attributing some symptoms to fracing, while something else is causing the symptoms. Just like some people are paranoid about the (nonexistent) danger of WiFi in schools, and some teachers incorrectly attributed their headaches to WiFi. Little did they know, the engineers did their research and due diligence to make sure 100% WiFi is safe for human health, before rolling out this technology.


The point in my earlier post was that well-enforced COMMON laws (with jail time as deterrent for any loss of life/health from new technologies) would make sure enough research on safety is always done by decision makers in a free market economy. This way we could safely get rid of all govt regulations on environment, and get rid of the EPA, and have a much better outcome for both the environment and the economy.

also...

also...we're ALWAYS hiring in the oilfield. In a time when jobs are so scarce in this country...why would people be so focused on downtalking the one industry that is always looking for more employees? So, if you know anyone who needs a job...tell them to get into the oilfield. It isn't the easiest work on earth, but it pays well & the work is always there (although you may have to travel at times to stay busy).

Also....Obama has sent OSHA people down here to South Texas to "fine the oil companies as much as possible before the election". For instance...a person caught using a grinder without a shield on it will be fined $7,000 personally. Who the hell can afford a $7,000 fine? Obama is a nut case.

Join a Union and they get your $7000 on a regular basis.

An offer you can't refuse.

Free includes debt-free!

Are earthquakes a consequence?

I don't know anything about fracing.