25 votes

Huff Po: "America's Not Faring Well on Welfare" - in support of a Paul-ian position

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robin-koerner/americas-not-far...

Snippet:

"More subtly, but infinitely more destructive in the long run, is that the recipient of help is completely unconnected to the individuals taxpayers who are providing the help. Recipients cannot see the impact of the giving on those who gave. This is literally a de-humanization of a huge set of human transactions, as it eliminates the natural human responses of reciprocity and responsibility toward those who help us. Since the welfare state delivers help in a way that seems to come from no person, the perceived cost is zero. Why then, would any recipient feel grateful toward, or any moral obligation to, those who provided the help? Responsibility wouldn't need to be legislated if we had not instituted a system that demolishes it. "




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Europe only knows government handouts

I was hiking the White Mountains of New Hampshire last month and a German woman at my hut over dinner asked,

"Is America a good place to raise a family?"

I was confused and just kinda asked, "Huh?"

She clarified, "Is there enough support?"

-lightbulb-(w/mild disgust) "Oh! Government help. Why would
I need a government to help me raise my family?"

The comment caught her off guard. Like she had never heard that logic before.

In politeness I don't talk politics at the table but she persisted a couple more questions:

"Are there poor people in America?"
"When you have 300 million people you get every kind of people."

"What do you think of Obama's healthcare deal."
"If a state wants government healthcare, like Hawaii, that's their right. Not Washington. Washington is corrupt - I do not trust them. I'd rather trust Michigan."

Then to change topics I failed to impress her with my inability to sing 'Schnitzelbank'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI3tGgD4nMk

Another point my friend is making?

What are your thoughts? Here is argument about the article.

I think what people call "the nanny state" is simply considered the norm in every other industrial country. People in Japan don't have to worry about deciding whether to pay their mortgage or get cancer treatment. I don't see people anywhere else in the world envying our approach. The author of that article thinks if we got rid of welfare and had everything based on private charity that would solve the problem. I think he's living in a dream world. There is no way people would make that up in charitable donation. If your mom couldn't get medicare for her cancer treatment, god help her trying to find the money by soliciting private donations. How often do people walk past those salvation army guys in front of the supermarket without even looking at them? Or hand a homeless guy a meal. I think the Libertarian way of doing things would basically turn this into a third world country where wealth would shoot to the top(even more than now), where they would pay hardly any taxes and middle/lower class people would be anemic. It would be like it is in these Latin countries where everything is controlled by a few wealthy families and then everybody else is living like our friend Steve barely able to go out to eat. Did you see that article I sent the other day about the top 400 families in America having more wealth than the bottom 50% of the population? All that concentrated money didn't come out of thin air. It was extracted from normal people whose wages haven't grown in decades while the wealthiest are bringing so much money you wouldn't think we were in the worse economy since the Great Depression. It makes me sick hearing these pundits on TV and radio defending the rich and saying we have too much social service and they wealthy are taxed too much. They already send people's jobs to China, and then have illegal aliens taking all these blue collar jobs in construction, agriculture, meat packing, hotels and all kinds of things, then they don't expect people's social needs to go up. The way I see it, illegal immigration/outsourcing is going to be paid for one way or another. The corporations may be saving money short term with cheap labor, but the pressure that puts on the American working class is going to cause their needs on unemployment, welfare and medicaid to rise. It's just basic math. So the rich don't want to pay people a living wage and then they don't want to pay for the social welfare either. I guess everyone except them and their cheap labor should just roll over and die.

My reply

I think you get this guy's approach wrong. You mention pundits on tv arguing against defending the rich pissing you off. I do get pissed too, when that is all they are arguing for!

That is not this guy's belief. He is not saying cut welfare and end all of that tomorrow. He is just illustrating how the dependence of the people on the government has gone and I believe it. There are people in Washington State living in projects that look better than our apartment at 307. There are people who abuse the system.

Medical coverage in this country is rediculous. Do you know not one University teaches doctors nutrition. Our country's medical problems is not because of a free market, instead the opposite. The government should not be involved in medicine. Getting treatment for cancer would not cost so much if the government was not involved. If you watched the compelling documentary on Cancer I sent you, you would see how the government teaches us to be treated instead of allowing for a cure. The government gets very little right.

Yes, there is no way you can strip everyone of welfare tomorrow, but this is a broken system. It is broken and to point to other problems as being greater, can be true, at the same time it is not dealing with this problem either. Things like Social Security are a joke. Watch what Social Security does for seniors in 5 years. Since Obama came in my parents have had a freeze on cost of living in their pensions. Now the government is trying to change how inflation will be measured in Social Security. You are about to see a rise in costs that is rediculous. People's SS checks will not get it done. Then what?

You illustrate the guy's point when you say people walk by homeless people everyday. That type of culture has increased over the last 75 years. My dad remembers a time, when people would give people lifts, if you were in the Army traveling...people would invite you in for a meal, and that people could leave their doors open at night. We have a different culture now. It sure is not one to be proud of.

I bet if you sat down with the author he would explain the first thing that needs to be addressed is sound money. I do not understand why this always get ignored by the liberal talking pundits. We all our being unfairly taxed in a different way and it called the printing press. Anyone who does not recognize is blind.

My friend's comment on this article

He presented nothing I haven't heard already. It's basic Republican/Libertarian boilerplate. They believe the free market will fix social ills. The free market only exists for one reason: To maximize profit. When rust belt cities have their industry relocated to China in search of greater profit, of course the result is going to be more people on welfare, unemployment and Medicaid. Whatever we spend on this pales in comparison to what's spent on the Pentagon.

You need to define profit

Its not necessarily only defined in terms of currency, there are also more intangible values. Profits can be many things, consider "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- So the free market maximizes profits, not necessarily material gains. do you consider it profitable to meet your moral obligations to your fellow man ?

My Favorite Comment below the article

It's immoral to not help the poor.

It's also immoral to steal.

Through the income tax we steal to help the poor.

And after all of that, they stay "poor" and we're still guilty of theft.

What a failed state this is.

"Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink, and make the combination worthless."

Terrific! Really makes one

Terrific! Really makes one think! :)

In Our Hands

This was anticipated by Charles Murray's book "In Our Hands: A Plan to Replace the Welfare State"

http://www.aei.org/docLib/9780844742236.pdf

The plan is, quite simply, to replace all transfer programs with a citizen's dividend sent monthly to all adult citizens totaling about $10,000 per year.

There are all manner of arguments against this but the one decisive argument in favor of it is made obliquely by Robin Koerner:

Once government largesse is placed in our hands without regard to who can muster political might, the responsibility for delivery of social goods is more localized with a more personal face.

We may ignore, for the sake of those who find the US Constitution to be a quaint document, the fact that this is far more in the spirit of the general welfare clause than is all the public sector rent seeking that sees the US Federal government as a football.

If you read nothing else, read this: A Contract Between Americans

This guy Robin is great

Very clear, very persuasive arguments always.

He is a huge asset to the Liberty movement (and common sense) on a big progressive site like HuffPo

I never noticed this, but the

I never noticed this, but the person who listed this article is a "robink". With the author of the article being Robin Koerner...

Needless to say this a great article, which actually let me reflect on why I support Ron Paul and his ideas in slimming down the entitlement system. It won't happen overnight, but by legalizing freedom in the marketplace to allow communities to find solutions, it gives that "connection" back to the receiver of that help.

Now if only there was a defense spending article... *wink wink, nudge nudge*

Robin Koerner's picture

My secret's out! But shhh...

My secret's out! But shhh... Don't tell anyone :)

i am not sure which is more surprising

to read this at the huff po or all the positive comments that follow.

outstanding article.

"The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional"
Ron Paul

What a genius...

... I love this part, "More subtly, but infinitely more destructive in the long run, is that the recipient of help is completely unconnected to the individuals taxpayers who are providing the help. Recipients cannot see the impact of the giving on those who gave. This is literally a de-humanization of a huge set of human transactions, as it eliminates the natural human responses of reciprocity and responsibility toward those who help us."

Powerful stuff.

Plano TX

Authored by the man who founded the Blue Republicans

and who plans to attend the Seattle C4L and new King Co RP 2012 meeting next Monday!

reedr3v's picture

Not only is he a brilliant writer, but he

has been a lightning fast learner about liberty and peaceful, efficacious economics.

This is front page material

This is front page material imo

Beautifully written!

and simply explained in a non accusatory manner.

Too bad that it

took them about 50 years to figure out that they were doing the wrong thing, and ran the country into the dirt before they noticed any of their own few crippled synapses firing a warning sign.
This is why you can't go along with "progressives". They don't know what the hell they are doing, and it's all emotional with no thinking, and they drag the country to hell with their "feelgood" garbage..

The author of this article is

The author of this article is far from a garden variety progressive.

This is an extremely powerful

This is an extremely powerful article. This has to spread to as many Democrats and Progressives as possible!

PS. This guy is one of the best writers in our liberty movement. He's a real gem!

nailed it

Excellent article!

Another great read. Everyone needs to pass this one around to all of their liberal friends.

Healthnut4freedom

The lip of truth shall be established forever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment...Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are His delight. Prov 12:19,22