15 votes

"A 30 year old gets into an accident with no insurance.."

I want to point out one thing about RON PAUL's response to Wolf's question to Ron, which I believe, caught Ron Paul flat footed: "A 30 year old gets into an accident with no insurance.."

Ron Paul SHOULD HAVE SAID, ...

"Wolf, let me ask you this, what county did that 30 year old American get in an accident? I ask you that because County Hospitals and Charitable Hospitals will save that boys life, just as they do today, each and every day. People pay their county property taxes and fund their own hospital system. Keeping medicine decentralized, locally funded and competitive and even charitable, is the best way forward. We need a chain of 700 CHARITABLE HOSPITALS spread out across the United States, not a chain of 700 military bases spread out across 300 countries. Listen Wolf, ANY national health insurance program from the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is NOT a Constitutional function of the Federal Government, period. We are spending billions and billions on military bases around the world, just imagine if those monies stayed in each County! Then each county could build its own charitable hospital!"

Spread the message!
Treg

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

I wish people would stop

I wish people would stop equating "society" to "government". Yes, "society" should save this man, the stupidest thing that "society" could do is give this task to the "government"... If "society" cares about the man anyway.

Equating Govn't to Society and Vice Versa

Insightful comment, HuskerSkier.

What you said reminds me of media heads who equate the U.S. government and Americans, when the media heads say "we" or "us" when the ire is directed toward the U.S. government, specifically to the United States military, not nongovernment Americans.

Keep on bringing up that observation. Sooner or later people will get a damned clue.

School's fine. Just don't let it get in the way of thinking. -Me

Study nature, not books. -Walton Forest Dutton, MD, in his 1916 book whose subject is origin (therefore what all healing methods involve and count on), simple and powerful.

First off.......

Ron Paul never suggest he die. If given some time to think it over, I am sure he would suggest he get his care, he get a few hundred thousand dollar bill, and then be forced to declare bankruptcy.

That is his punishment for thinking he did not need healthcare. Why should he be given a free ride. We have bankruptcy laws for people who have too much debt. I see that as a perfect solution to an person who has no responsibility and decided to not get the insurance.

Also the price was GREATLY exaggerated by Wolf. I bought a plan from ehealthinsurance.com for me and my wife. I was $100 per month. We are in our late 20's. So a 30 year old individual can be a policy much cheaper than lead onto.

It is SO ironic

that there's a whole stage full of candidates up there who are bold-face advocating global killing sprees, yet the moderator asks Ron Paul if he thinks somebody should die.

Do these people even live on the same planet that we do?

Good point!

The GOP advocates the Death Penalty and "whole killing sprees"

I just heard on Democracy Now that Rick Perry is going to Execute a guy WHO DID NOT COMMIT THE MURDERS. The guy who did the murders and admits to it, got life.

Why is this NOT headline news?

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

As stated below, churches USED to run hospitals

...and now, with all the illegals sucking the system dry, hospitals all over the nation are bankrupt and chaining their doors shut.
As many of my physician friends tell me, the lawyers have killed the medical profession. It's no longer fun to go to work...nearly half of what you make goes into mal-practice insurance...why? Our system is broken. Our system allows anyone to sue for anything, and the lawyers make money no matter the outcome. Most dumb-ass Americans are looking for the easy way out..the free ticket to easy street...sue the doctor and kick back with a can of 45 and a carton of Marlboros...THAT'S the new American dream, apparently!

------------------
BC
Silence isn't always golden....sometimes it's yellow.

"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." - Patrick Henry

and it is YOU

...moving response to correct message. -dfwrider.

No ammount of charity can provide care

For mental health, crhonic care, cancer care etc. those all are extremely expensive and if you do not think those physicians will turn away people and "let them die" then you and Ron have slot to learn. For example a type I diabetic who gets it because of genetics when he or she is 8. Will need constant visits, tests, insulin syringes, and other complex care such as Nero logical care, Eye care, Dental care internal care etc.. their are so many complex issues that come from a result of that disease it would bankrupt a charity. How is he going to solve that.. One way.. LET THEM DIE. and that is immoral. For example I was going blind in both eyes due to macular edema.. I did not have the 350.00 per month per eye to save my vision and the last thing I did before I went blind was buy a shotgun and a box of shells.. I was intnet on killing myself. There I st in my apartment with my cat and a loaded shotgun knowing what was about to happen.. because I asked the Dr the day before if I could pay less or go on some charity and no one would help me.. My boss called up the day I just could barely see to find the phone and they gave me a raise to ofset the cost and now I sit here with 20/50. But not everyone is that lucky.. and I fear you and Ron are naive to think your ideas of charity will work.. they wont.. It will create misery and unnecessary suicides and death. And I will blame you. There is alot to like about Paul. this is not one of them. The people at the debate that shouted Let him die make me sick. I pity them and their moral malevolence. I got nausius to think I was thinking about voting for Paul. In medicine I am a socialist and well its bedause I know what its like to not be healthy from no fault of my own and not tho have anyone to help. And to understand if I lose my job I will go blind, then have no medicine not doctor no food. and rely on charity.. I would rather die.. because none of you have enough charity to help people like me. but collectedly you do. Is it that much that we ask that when I am healthy I help someone less fortunat as a group to pool my resources and not have you yell out "Let him die!"

Why is healthcare expensive?

1) Government regulations. Gov regs impose burdens directly on providers as well as on insurance companies which in turn impose more burdens on doctors. Overall administrative impact to cost due to regs = 30-50%

I have successfully negotiated cash rates with docs incl hospitals and have always been able to get down to just above the Medicare rate which is rock bottom.

2) You can get catastrophic for pretty cheap. Use menued healthcare clinics in strip malls for routine and light ailments, urgent cares for worse conditions.

3) Discount cards, take off another % off meds, dental and vision. Even the ron paul business card here right on DP provides them for cheap or free.

4) Just like I have to do now on my high deductible plan, put $100 aside every check or every month if you can't do every check for the care you need between routine and catastrophic. So, you'll need to do without some burgers and movies. Oh well.

I am truly sorry for your medical situation.

That said, if "they" have to pay for others medical care, who is helping the retiree on a fixed income who can't make ends meet each month? Or a single mom of two trying to make ends meet?

Should hey have to pay for the person who is ill who they don't know? Who helps them?

Wow!

I actually commend you greatly for being able to hold a job in that condition.
I didn't care much for the let them die shouts either.
However, does your job offer insurance?
If so, and you exercised your individual right not to enroll, what exactly did you expect?
You can't expect everyone to pay for your unfortunate case because you didn't want to get insured.
Also, I have no insurance and occasional seizures that requires medication.
Not sure about where you live but as for me, I have never been denied treatment or even been asked to pay prior to tests or treatment.
I do get billed and need to make payments.
It sucks but it is my choice.
Every time I leave the hospital I'm given paperwork for charitable free or reduced service. I never qualify but its there.

Private charity.

The reason youo can't see how it would work is because the government has taken so much over. Let me give you an example. The American diabetes association could have it's own membership where it's members pool their resources in order to get cheaper prices. Heck with a million people you could buy your own production facility and sell it to members for cost.

That is a really great point that rarely gets made.

There are essentially 3 sectors in any society:

1) the Private Trading Sector
2) the Government Tax, Regulate & Force Sector
3) the Charitable-Volunteer Sector; as in, we'll help you now, you do what you can for us LATER.

The goal of any CIVILIZED society should be to increase the size of 1 and 3, and shrink the size of 2 as much as possible.

In America today, the govt sector has just about crushed the Charitable Sector.

The big charitable institutions that remain such at the Red Cross and the March of Dimes all came from an era of Free Trade and a SMALL govt sector. From little leagues to boy scouts, it all came from a Freer era of America.

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

I to, my friend, have sat

I to, my friend, have sat with my back to the wall. Fortunatly I had family that would not loan me a gun "to put a dog down". They knew the dog I was refering to. It's been a heck (trying hard to stay within posting guide lines)of a couple of years! The cheese sometimes does get binding. It is not to be frowned on when you are down, it IS a shame if YOU allow yourself to stay there!I am not a church go-er. There is very little charity out there for one who is, let alone one who is not. Like you my eye sight is going fast. My VISION is not impaired! MY BLOOD FOR A RESTORED REPUBLIC (What a darn simple choice). I am finding ways to get medical treatment. I will not post it here as it would alter the subject of the OP and ruin a very good thread. You can e-mail me @ dallascounty@live.com I will share my knowledge with you and perhaps working together, we shall both "rise from the ash's" and experience better health.

YOUR servant for freedom, Clay Carey

TimC, we ALL die.

And life isn't fair.

We can spend an infinite amount of money on any given person or group of people trying to keep them 'alive'.

Millions die of starvation every year, is that fair?
Do you know how many children you could feed with what it takes to keep ONE cancer patient alive on chemotherapy for a year? Or one patient on dialysis? Or even one diabetic?

"Let them die" is immoral?
Charity and the free market can't provide enough health care?

What is moral?
Slavery?
Health care extracted at the point of a gun?
Where do you think government funded health care comes from?

Medical care is too expensive? Doctors charge too much? Pharmacists and pharmaceutical companies charge too much? Fine, then let them compete.

But don't demand free universal health care.
That is demanding slavery. If you don't understand that then you have no right criticizing Dr. Paul.

******************************
The Virtual Conspiracy

Wanted to send you a private

Wanted to send you a private message but can't The e-mail DP has was hacked and shut down. SO I will just say, "go very easy".

Joη's picture

"The e-mail DP has was hacked and shut down"

what?

"You underestimate the character of man." | "So be off now, and set about it." | Up for a game?

Sorry about that Jon, I

Sorry about that Jon, I should have explained in more detail. I will do so here and perhaps you can make the change for me? My contact info e-mail address (clay_c2001@msn.com) was hacked and shut down 6 mths ago. I have try'd to change it to dallascounty@live.com, how-ever at some point in time I believe I set up a 2nd user here and used that e-mail for it. I cannot make the change and I don't remember the other I.D. Did not mean to shake you up...

lmao

it is you who is naive. the misery and unnecessary deaths are already here, and increasing as this unsustainable system teeters on a collapse.

it is you who fails to understand that your support for a broken monetary system, is what causes the prices of everything that is important, to skyrocket.

and if there are umbrella payers, its even worse.

look at the price of anything that requires american labor, and has single/pool payers involved ...it makes the cpi stats look like a joke.

the system you have embraced all these decades HAS DESTROYED CHARITABLE, NON CENTRALIZED ENTITIES.

so yea, your complaints are valid about complex expensive illnesses... but you are wrong about dr. paul

and I tell you this. ...you have no solution. none. there is NO way forward to improvement on our current course and trajectory.

not until our monetary system experiences a cataclysm and our country comes to grips with reality, will there be a chance to reform so many broken systems in this country...

ron paul's message is pretty clear, what you got now, and what you will be getting in the future is unsustainable, and the service quality is rapidly dropping, and the bottom is going to drop out any day.

if you want this condition to be prolonged for an indefinite period of time, keep doing what you are doing.

on the other hand, if you want to minimize the amount of time we spend at the bottom, you will capitulate and let nature take its course....

morality

The people at the debate that shouted Let him die make me sick. I pity them and their moral malevolence

So if voluntary charity doesn't yield enough money to solve this social problem, what method do you propose? Violent charity?

Is violent charity moral?

Watch this 4 min. video

How many people comitted

How many people comitted suicide because of their tax debt within the last year? They're being taxed like that so this 30 year old person can get a free ride and live irresponsibly. You tell me what's right or wrong.

Just say NO!

Should we let people die.

NO! (then collect yourself and respond)

Should we let Israel get nuked.

NO! (then collect yourself and respond)

smear this!

This question should have been refuted in the first place.

Why would they ask Ron Paul running for president if "some guy" gets seriously injured....in a coma!.....and ...uh..an Alien popping out of his chest!

Should he receive help? Who will pay for it?..who will breathe if the Govt didn't tell us to?!

These questions are debating fallacies like..."Dr. Paul who would win in a fight Batman or Superman........?"

How come no one else gets that question?

Why don't you ask him what steps he would do to fix real apparent problems, rather than make up arbitrary scenarios to try and pin Dr. Paul and Austrian free market politics, aka Libertarianism, into a corner to discredit all he is and all he has done!

It's a question to marginalize him, so why doesn't he marginalize the question and the individual who asked it,....then take as much time as possible to rant because they avoid him all night he must talk till they cut him off, to maximize his opportunities.

Dr Paul knocked it out of the park

I think it was the best response of the night. Blitzer tried to trip him up and he stayed cool,spoke slow,and nailed it.

I thought Ron Paul's answer was not only appropriate,...

but exciting. An MD actually promoting alternative medicine is a big thing. Three years ago I proposed to Ron Paul's staff something I call "The TIM Protocol". "TIM" is an acronym for "Triage Integrative Medicine". "TIM" is nothing more than a smart search engine; think "WebMD" on steroids. A patient would enter symptom and family history data and TIM would recommend treatments based on probability, urgency and cost, then locate the nearest caregiver, be he chiropractor, accupuncturist, physician, etc. This has the potential of saving a trillion dollars or more in health care costs over 10 years.

How about this answer.

The hospital can take care of him and bill him appropriately. Since he took a gamble and lost he will likely be paying back that debt for the next 10-20 years... Thats the result of the risk he took.

Simple as that. More people would buy insurance if it wasn't the policy of the US to just take care of them anyway...

Or ask what state was the accident?

In michigan the uninsured auto injury would come under the Michigan MCCA (michigan catastrophic claims association)Fund. The MCCA is funded by premiums paid by auto policy holders through insurance companies writing business in Michigan. Unlimited life time medical benifits and disability coverage for up to 3 years are covered for any auto accident in the state. There are many ways to fund and pay for medical costs, other than at the federal level.

How about this reply....

"You know Wolf, for one hundred years now we Republicans have listened to liberal democrats worry themselves silly about Health Care. I say, lets give all the liberals all of their income tax money back and sit back and see if they donate all of it to the Charity Hospitals in the County they live in. Lets see if they put their money where their mouth is. I bet they don't and here is why. The lower middle classes and the average conservative donates twice as much proportionally to Charity Hospitals than the rich liberals do. Rich Liberals would like to get off the hook, by forcing everyone to do, what they would naturally do in a FREE society. Charity Hospitals and your County Hospitals are there for those who cannot pay, its government intrusion into medicine that has made it a 3rd party pays system, which is why the costs are rising. Lets say your wife feels a small pain in her stomach. It could be anything, so you get some tests done and a diagnosis. You are looking at an appendicitis. Now, how do you shop that? Which hospital posts its prices? Which doctor office posts their prices? There is no reason why there cannot be a full length menu of prices for the medical consumer, but their is not. If you have a medical savings account, which i support, you still find it nearly impossible to shop for medicine. In cosmetic surgical they loudly post their prices, so why can't all medicine post their prices to the consumer? The answer is, they don't have to, government has made it a 3rd party pays system. ObamaCare does nothing to fix that, so prices will continue to rise. And guess what, this time all taxpayers will be paying these increases. "

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Plastic surgery is the answer.

It is one of the only Medical Professions that has a consumer driven Product. There for The Prices keep coming down. Problem solved. Get government out of Medicine all together.

Jacksonville, FL

You should be working on his

You should be working on his campaign Treg. It makes me sick that they are not prepared for this.

No joke, Treg. I seriously

No joke, Treg. I seriously second Clint's reply.