11 votes

Should I join the Airforce or remain jobless?

I am 26, have a BA degree, and was working a little while in the hospitality industry for a while until it got too expensive to live on my own, with student loans/car payments. So I had to move back in with my parents and now having a very difficult time finding a job in my area, and it doesn't pay well. So my parents are pressuring me to join the Air Force so I can get rid of my student loan debt, car payments easily, and have a career path with job benefits, and not dead end like the ones I had before. I really don't want to join the military, but it seems like I have no other options and I am a burden on my parents. My degree is in History, but I went to Culinary School afterwards because I couldn't find a job with my History degree and Culinary was something I always wanted to do, but the wage is really low and I can't move out of my parents house or pay my loans back. I would very much appreciate it if you guys can help me out with this with advice. Thanks.

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wolfe's picture

I am not trying to argue with you...

The draft hasn't been restarted. In terms of whether they could, yes, they could, the law still exists. But it isn't the same thing as being implemented. In addition, women are not subject to the draft.

I'm no Reagan fan. And I am REALLY not trying to attack you or your daughter, and I hope you realize that. Just trying to get people to look at it differently.

So, we can just agree to disagree and move on... :)

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

I understood it was just a debate about an idea

But I would like to in turn make an attempt to explain a "different way to look at it"

You want know what she did while she was in the service?,She followed a great man,she delivered Babies! She was given a choice of duty and picked to go to the naval hospital in Naples Italy to deliver the Babies of military personnel.

Now going back to your original idea that anyone supporting wars in anyway is wrong? What about these babies? Was she wrong for caring for the babies of warmongers? Where do they stand?Should we also look down on or persecute these innocent babies because they were products of warmongering personnel? Would it have been better for the cause if these babies of warmongers were aborted instead?

Now there is a different perspective (Way to look at it) for you to contemplate. No disrespect intended but I think her situation was a bit different and she has nothing to be ashamed of. I would be curious of your rebuttal to this debate point?

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

wolfe's picture

I will admit that your framing the situation in that way...

does indeed put a different spin on it.

I will agree that these babies should of course not be aborted as they are innocent and doing so would also be murder/violence.

And I will also say that your daughter's participation is somewhat different than I would have expected.

However, here is where I get to the meat of my argument. First, there is no guarantee that would remain her post. When you sign the dotted line, it is for life (I knew of many military personnel being recalled), and in *any* capacity that *they* choose to use you (my dad was promised an engineering gig, but instead turned into an MP). She has no control over that. She gave up self-direction (for life) the moment she signed.

Second, and this goes to my larger point about functionaries. If there was no one to deliver babies, then this would first deter some from joining, and second force them to be sent back home, etc. By aiding them in any way, voluntarily, it is supporting their presence and their activity.

Even the lowly paper pusher that just makes sure the mail moves in both directions is assisting in the military presence. If there was no one to deliver mail, deliver babies, care for the sick, build bases, drive cargo, answer phones, fix equipment, then their could be no soldiers or military presence there.

These two facts combined create consent for the actions by those who join. In the case of the draft or taxes, these are extracted from you by force and therefore relieve you to some degree of responsibility. Still not completely though, if you don't do everything you can to resist. In my case, this means expatriation in order to find a more peaceful government to steal my money from me.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

I understand and respect...

What you say here and now need to fill you in on something you did not know in your original assumption. I am one of the strongest opposers to these wars on this board. Since coming home my Daughter has become even more of an activist than me because of the stop loss program and the suicides. There is an awakening that happens in the service as they mature. Everyone of us thought we were smarter than our elders at the age of 18 and would not listen. Military service makes you grow up in a drastic and severely rapid way.The keywords here are the Maturity and the comprehension that you may have been wrong to not listen. Thank you for the open minded debate,and I will quote my daughter about her job while in the service "They have way to much extra time on their hands,They make a lot of babies!" LOL. Remind me someday to tell you about the crane wreck case that would also show a different perspective.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

wolfe's picture

Actually I did know how strongly you oppose them... :)

Which is one reason I kept reinforcing that I was not trying to be disrespectful at all. And the fact that we all make mistakes and learn and grow, like your daughter. I do not hold one decision against someone, especially if done without the appropriate knowledge, and without bad intent.

And I literally laughed at the image that came to mind when I read the comment about the crane wreck (assuming it had something to so with them having too much "time" on their hands... lol)... :)

And thank you as well for understanding that I was simply providing a perspective and not trying to insult anyone. (I sometimes come across that way when it isn't my intent).

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

Thank you for recognising that

I try never to take things here to personal and always try to debate if possible. This place is mild now compared to what it was when I joined,lol. Unless of course I am outright attacked then the gloves are off!,no actually I still make an attempt to have an intelligent debate or ignore them.lol.Thank you again and please have a great day!

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

How the...

How the heck did none of the comments in this sub-thread get any up votes?

Attempted to rectify the situation.

Eric Hoffer

The guys coming back will tell you

that they may make you kill people. Contact me; send me a resume. I might be able to help you. drkresearch@hotmail.com.

Better to be a peace in your heart; stay strong. God will help you.

Just understand that if you do

They own you, period.

Whenever, where-ever they send you, you go. Even if you are highly qualified technician, don't be surprised if they waste your training and time doing base clean-up for a major inspection so some officer can win promotion points.

Your constitutional rights are suspended.

They can make you stay on duty with only four hours off to rest if necessary.

At any time, you can be ordered to pick up a gun and use it against someone.

In a recent Pentagon study of over 3,000 military personnel, 2 out of 3 women in the military reported being sexually harassed or raped---With almost 7% of the men reported being sexually harassed or raped as well!

Now there are many fine people in the military. I met many in my short stint in the USAF. But remember that the system permits the abuse of rank and power. All it takes is one sub-human moron with disillusions of grandeur to make your life a daily hell.

Conscience does not exist if not exercised

"No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up!
---Lily Tomlin

wolfe's picture

Signing on the dotted line...

Turns you into a murderer for the state.

Is a paycheck worth it?

If enough people said, "I refuse to be a state sponsored murderer." They couldn't commit the atrocities that they do.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -


You aren't a murderer unless you murder someone.

Logic? Let's not sensationalize things here...

NOTE: I am not advocating violence in any way. The content of the post is for intellectual, theoretical, and philosophical discussion. FEDS, please don't come to my house.

wolfe's picture


You aren't a murderer unless you kill or participate in a support role for the killer. Just because you are killing for the "state" does not make you any less of a killer. Killing in anything other than self defense is murder. If you go to someone else's property, you cannot claim self defense when you kill them before they kill you.

It is murder. All those engaged in supporting it, are just as guilty.

Therefore all members of our standing military are murderers and accomplices.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

By your logic...

Wouldn't you also be just as guilty since you are in a position to stop them but aren't doing everything in your power to do so? Are you still paying your taxes? Still enjoying the benefits of our military exploits around the globe?

If he were there, he might be in a position to stop a murder. He could be the voice of reason, protecting an unarmed civilian against overzealous soldiers or an unconstitutional order. He could help spread the message of liberty to our troops in a way that people here in the U.S. can't. That message of liberty could resonate with just one other soldier who takes his oath seriously and that one soldier could again stop a murder.

NOTE: I am not advocating violence in any way. The content of the post is for intellectual, theoretical, and philosophical discussion. FEDS, please don't come to my house.

wolfe's picture

No, because I do not have the power to stop it.

My taxes are taken by force. The same as the draft is implemented by force. It is not something within my control.
However, I am doing everything I can to stop my part in it. I am in the process of expatriating for this very reason.

You cannot stop murder by volunteering to be a murderer. That is insanity.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

excuse me......

let me slit my own wrist....

THEN i'll join the military.

the way it is now, i would never join.
and because of the way that i am, i would never join.

Join the oilfield then.

Join the oilfield then.

Hard work

but pays well!

When Fascism goes to sleep, it checks under the bed for Ron Paul!

Why are you limited to the Air Force?

. Navy? Army?

If you can get in as a Officer, GO Navy.

The Air Force Pink slipped (layed off) a bunch of Officers last year.

"Freedom is Popular"

Please Don't

Please do not join. It is a trap. All this crap about serving your country is propaganda. Our soldiers are puppets for Wallstreet and someone else's best interest. We know when we need to unite and fight an enemy. My husband served and it is not what you think. Please view the link that someone else posted about a soldlier. I do not want this to happen to you. There would be no war, taxes, etc. if we did not participate. Do not participate. Find other work to get by - something will break for you.



I watched this last night, I still want to join the US Marine Corps though. It hasnt discouraged me, only makes me more aware.

"Freedom is Popular"

I am paying off my loans

Bussing tables. most bussers suck ass, and I pwn those tables and earn ~25$/hr plus I do design work on the side. Unless you get hired as a sous chef right away, working in the back of the house pays little. I suggest move to the front of the house and find part time history research work.

Join the service and do our

Join the service and do our country proud. I served for ten years as an enlisted man...I can tell you that I would not recommend going in as an enlisted unless you are a person that is willing to follow blindly. Its a class system in the service and for a good reason....clear lines of authority. With that said...As an officer or a higher ranking enlisted you have the ability to influence your people. If you are willing to endure the first few years as an enlisted then go for it....if you are extremely strong willed and have a hard time with authority I would warn against joining as an enlisted.....you may get yourself into trouble that follows you the rest of your life. Either way...it is an honorable thing to do and as long as you can handle yourself properly...you will be fine. You have an advantage...your older which means alot in your first few years.

Truth before all else.....it is what will allow us to emerge with dignity and honor.


Turn everybody that is open minded to understand where to STAND..THEY ARE THERE TO ESURE THE CONSTITUTIOn as the LAW OF THE LAND....Has to be done...we have to go deep in all the Beaurocracy..We have to transform from inside out the beast...


It's happening already.

are u willing to lie, undermine the USC, and murder innocents ?

Upon joining, you will swear to uphold/defend the USC.
That means DISOBEYING orders to take part in UNdeclared (and hence UNconstitutional) "wars".
So unless you are willing to be imprisoned, that will be a LIE (as you will be directly violating/undermining that which you swore to defend).
It will also be treason, as you would giving "aid/comfort" to enemies of the US.
Then you will be taking part in the murder/maiming of innocents (including CHILDREN).
i.e. don't sell your soul.


"Then you will be taking part in the murder/maiming of innocents (including CHILDREN)."

Wow. Talk about sensationalizing the issue.

So, my friend in the Air Force is guilty of this because he sets up and maintains computer systems on a base in central PA?

NOTE: I am not advocating violence in any way. The content of the post is for intellectual, theoretical, and philosophical discussion. FEDS, please don't come to my house.




Move to North Dakota and work your butt off. Go this weekend.

Write a book 1 hour every evening while you're there. About the oil bonanza, the hard life, the characters and the history of booms and busts.

Pay off your debt. Buy silver coins. Invest in small apartment in ND after a year.

Take this course:

Take this course: http://www.itefl.net/online/

Grab a Backpack and see the world!

I did it when I was 28 and never looked back. I'm 42 now and have lived in several different Asian countries. It doesn't make me any less patriotic, actually it has made me more because I'm very aware and very concerned.

Anyway, there are options, you just have to search for them.