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The I agree with Ron Paul on everything except Israel argument

***As the one that wrote this I respectfully ask, stop fussing back and forth if you aren't Christian and don't know anyone that is, go read something else it wasn't written for you. Find another way to help Dr. Paul get elected and do something useful with your time. The ones that like myself that are Bible believing Christians can use this for a good. The reason I wrote it is to show a big chunk of people that would vote for Paul except for this one issue what the Bible which they claim to believe says about it. If you don't believe it then that is up to you, you aren't helping anything by fussing. You want to be an atheist be one, you want to fuss about it go to another thread. *****

Christians have been hoodwinked into the "stand with Israel" replacement theology. It is again a case of folks relying on others to do their research and thinking for them. What follows is not about Israel being an ally or anything else, it is just a refute to the whole idea that it is based in Biblical teaching, and since a big chunk of folks that say they agree with Dr. Paul on everything but this could use some help here it is:

Talking to folks about politics, they always bring up Israel. Where is it in the Bible that it says we as a nation or that any nation is supposed to fund and protect the political State of Israel? I think that it is nothing more than a replacement theology for political purposes rather than for God's purposes. Now before you call me anti-Semitic, look up the words definition.

Semite: a member of any number of peoples of Ancient Southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs.

Also I am working under the premise that I believe, and that God's word tells us: 2 Timothy 3:16, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," all scripture is from God, and the Bible does not ever contradict itself, because God does not contradict himself.

Also I am not talking about them being an "ally in the middle east" I mean where in God's Holy Word does it say, protect Israel or stand with Israel? After all, that is supposedly one of the things we have to do isn't it?

God made a covenant with Abraham he would be the father of many nations, Genesis 17 , and the covenant would go through Issac and that lineage would be traced through Issac. Then in Genesis 21 after Abraham sends away Ishmael and Haggar, God comes to Haggar and tells her in verse 17,

"17 God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. 18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”

Now go back to Genesis 16: "11And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

12And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. "

Did you catch that? "Dwell in the presence of all his brethren" . Now there is a lot more to get into in the Old Testament regarding this, here is one last thing Exodus chapter 19:

"5Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

That is God speaking to Moses about the Hebrews that he was then leading from Egypt. Again these are the ones whose lineage was traced through Issac. These are the Jews, the Hebrews, the Orthodox Jews of today. But there is something very important in Exodus 19 verse 5 we need to read: "if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine."

Did the Jews keep their part up? Did they obey God's voice and keep his covenant? And, as Christians don't we operate under the "New Covenant" the one Jesus spoke of? Luke 22 verse 20: "this cup is the New Covenant established by My blood it is shed for you." Who are the heirs to God's Kingdom? Who are his people? See Galatians Chapter 1 verses 6-10,

"6 I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from Him who called you by the grace of Christ, [and are turning] to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another [gospel], but there are some who are troubling you and want to change the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! [c] 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him! [d]

10 For am I now trying to win the favor of people, or God? Or am I striving to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ." Are we as Christians striving to please God with support of the political State of Israel or man? This next passage is Paul writing in Galatians again, talking about the man Cephas, and himself both who were born Jews, and again writing under the words of God not his own. Galatians Chapter 2 verses. 15-21:

"15 We are Jews by birth and not "Gentile sinners"; 16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. [f] And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ [g] and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will [h] be justified. 17 But if, while seeking to be justified by Christ, we ourselves are also found to be sinners, is Christ then a promoter [i] of sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild those things that I tore down, I show myself to be a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I have died to the law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; 20 and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the flesh, [j] I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing. "

Now the entire Chapter 3 of Galatians:

1 You foolish Galatians! Who has hypnotized you, [a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed [b] as crucified? 2 I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? [c] 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh? [d] 4 Did you suffer so much for nothing—if in fact it was for nothing? 5 So then, does God [e] supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? [f]

6 Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, 7 so understand that those who have faith are Abraham's sons. 8 Now the Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith and foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, All the nations will be blessed in you. 9 So those who have faith are blessed with Abraham, who had faith. [g]

Law and Promise

10 For all who [rely on] the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue doing everything written in the book of the law. 11 Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous will live by faith. 12 But the law is not based on faith; instead, the one who does these things will live by them. 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. 14 The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brothers, I'm using a human illustration. [h] No one sets aside even a human covenant that has been ratified, or makes additions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say "and to seeds," as though referring to many, but and to your seed, referring to one, who is Christ. 17 And I say this: the law, which came 430 years later, does not revoke a covenant that was previously ratified by God, [i] so as to cancel the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is from the law, it is no longer from the promise; but God granted it to Abraham through the promise.

The Purpose of the Law

19 Why the law then? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise was made would come. [The law] was ordered through angels by means of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not for just one person, but God is one. 21 Is the law therefore contrary to God's promises? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly be by the law. 22 But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin's power, [j] so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. 24 The law, then, was our guardian [k] until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. 25 But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, [l] 26 for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Now don't miss verse 27 of Galatians Chapter 3:

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to the promise.

Could the same be said of us foolish Americans, could it be asked who hypnotized us? There are many more places in the New Testament that tell us these same things. I have not found any thing that tells us that we "need to stand" with the political state of Israel" instead the Bible tells me that due to the Grace of God given to me through Jesus taking on my sin and dying on the cross that I am Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the Promise. It also tells me that Ishmael's decedents are going to be living among their brethren and will have his hand against them. Does it tell me to kill them or fight them? Or does it tell me to share the Gospel? Matthew Chapter 28 Verse 18:

"18 Then Jesus came near and said to them, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of [f] all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, [g] I am with you always, [h] to the end of the age."

So we are told to "stand with Israel" who is telling us this? God, or man? Who is to be obeyed God, or man? Did Paul have a better understanding of God's word since it was revealed to him by God, or does Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Romney, Perry, Cain etc. have a better understanding of God's word? We are told "to stand with Israel" because it is in the Bible, where is it. It is a replacement theology that is politically motivated not Scripturally motivated.

Why are we so quick "to stand with Israel" and support the anti-Christ? 1st John Chapter 2 verses18-23:

"18 Children, it is the last hour. And as you have heard, "Antichrist is coming," even now many antichrists have come. We know from this that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. [f] 21 I have not written to you because you don't know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar, if not the one who denies that Jesus is the Messiah? He is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son can have the Father; he who confesses the Son has the Father as well."

Folks read God's word, don't rely on others to tell you what it says and means, read it. How many times in the Old Testament, the New Testament and after the death of Christ and resurrection of Christ, were the Jewish people and the area now called Israel overrun? Read the Bible, all the Earth is God's not just a strip of land in the modern day middle east called Israel. And as it says in God's word who are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise? Galatians 3:27

"27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to the promise."

My point is that all this hoopla about "standing with Israel" is not based on Scripture it is based on money and power and is not of God it is of the world.

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People are in business with this issue because

RP encourages citizens to support their country of choice if they deem so fit through their personal resources and time instead of foreign aid as long as it does not compromise national security imo.

There could be telethons and other huge fund-raisers for Israel. Heck if RP can get tons of support, Israel would get multi-tons...I do not think Israel's adversaries and enemies in their region would get near anything the amounts for Israel would be from America. :)


Aid & Abet Terrorism,

Is Not or Will Not The US-Govt be held responsible for aiding & abetting terrorism? Conflicts happen because of differing perspectives or claims. For the local residents the zionist intruders are terrorists, zionist steal land and kill the inhabitants, then imports men, money & material to colonize and build on the same land. The Palestinians who resist the occupation and colonization are called terrorists. The zionists are building settlements at a high speed, and this is the reason the peace efforts are failing, - the UN, US, UK, Europe, USSR (Russia) and others have been involved to get them to a deal, but the zionist insistence to grab more land is the main obstacle to peace. Similarly the zionist want to continue charging U$ury & interest to the rest of the world.

Ron Paul has correctly emphasized "Blow-Back", and in his recent speech about "Mutually Assured Respect" he mentions about the Golden Rule, The Ten Commandments, and the message of Peace. His policy is = "No intervention and entangling alliances". He would Not aid terrorism.
The US-Govt policy is = "Whoever supports terrorism is equally guilty". They accused al'CIA'da of attacking the NY-Towers, then US attacked Afghanistan for harboring the terrorist. Under the same policy they are now accusing Pakistan, see -
Are We At War With Pakistan?

Israel - must read... Only Ron Paul understands this...

This article was in today’s Financial Times. I will quote sections of it, not to impinge on copyright:

September 27, 2011 9:16 pm

Message to Perry: Stop Banging on about Israel
By Simon Schama

It is the eve of Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year, so in the interest of a happy one amid the gathering global gloom can I make a request of Republican Christian evangelical politicians professing to be friends of Israel? Next time the temptation to sound off on the best interests of the Jewish state strikes, resist it! Israel has enough on its plate without being exploited as campaign fodder by politicians who, every time they open their mouths on the subject, reveal their shocking ignorance of its history, political reality and security.

Take Rick Perry, governor of Texas, who lately has used every opportunity to denounce Barack Obama’s Middle East policy as a betrayal of the Jewish state. This comes hard on Mr Perry’s response to a question about the Taliban’s potential to secure Pakistani nuclear weapons that was so incoherent that by comparison it made Sarah Palin look like Henry Kissinger…

But to the likes of the radio ranter Glenn Beck, who had the chutzpah to present himself as “restoring courage” to Israel (I hadn’t noticed that it had lost it) near the Western Wall in August, those hundreds of thousands of Israelis must have been stooges of the “hard left”…

To Texas evangelicals such as Pastor John Hagee, who led the prayer assembly that kicked off Mr Perry’s campaign, this secular, tolerant, culturally daring Jewish nation is not the authentic Israel at all…

This, of course, is the real divide in the politics of the Jews, as in the politics of Muslims and the politics of the US: between zealots and pragmatists. When Mr Perry says “as a Christian I have a directive to support Israel”, we know that it’s the Campaign Manager Up There who is whispering in his ear. If he was just another fundamentalist, we could leave him and his kind to their imaginings. But they are aspiring to the US presidency and are in a position to do terrible harm to the people they profess to hold so close to their hearts. So leshana tova to you Governor Perry, but if you want to give the Jews a happy new year, for God’s sake give it a rest.

The writer is an FT contributing editor and author of books on America, Britain and Israel.

Plano TX

The Real Divide.

thanks for posting the article, it is well written. Simon observes that "the real divide in the politics of the Jews, as in the politics of Muslims and the politics of the US: between zealots and pragmatists".
The zealots and the pragmatists, both are in the wrong.
The 3rd kind is not often mentioned, nor given the ear, these are the faithful, sincere, who read & follow the word, the observant, who abstain from creating chaos or conflict, - they are actually the real peace-makers.
The zealots confuse the agenda, the pragmatist compromise on Law. Let us go back 2000 years and read / see the roles of different people in the Holy Land.
1) Foreign domination, Rome. 2) Puppet ruler, Herod. 3) Corrupted clergy, Pharisees. 4) Zealots / 'terrorist', Barabbas. We have much about them in books, records, movies, and biblical commentaries.

During that time we find no power, authority or influence of the Maseah & his disciples / followers. In the early days he performed miracles, healed people, taught the Scriptures, emphasized The Name, upheld the Law, though the movement was small in size.
His mission received a great exposure / like an explosion, after the incident at the Temple, when at the (Passover?) day of great assembly in JeruSalem he over-turned the bank. The Bible records actually show that - after his arrest all the friends fled away. After the Maseah left their world they re-Collected and started preaching.

We hope Ron Paul's policy of "Mutually Assured Respect" will bear good fruit. Blessed are the Peace-Makers.

Israel in all respects is the Jewish Nation of the Bible

as is all the rest of the World's unbelievers.
They work under the curse of LAW. The curse of LAW is Death, in God's eye. Those who live by the sword shall perish by the sword. Those who live by the LAW shall perish with the LAW. The LAW must be judged and the convicted sentenced. Eventually the sentence MUST be carried out.

But GRACE abounds for those who will persue HIM.
To those who believe is given Freedom and Liberty and Blessing unmeasurable. A life without worry or curse. For there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Unto them is given Eternal Life. TODAY, TODAY, TODAY, NOW. Not when we get there, but when we first believe. Christ is the GIFT of G-d.

I agree about Israel but God contradicts himself

over and over.

Further I will say that you don't believe the scriptures or supposed words of Jesus. Jesus said we are Gods but you refuse to believe Jesus when he says that. Because you only believe what you want to believe about the Bible.

Let's see if you can find this in the Bible: If you say you know him and committed sin, then you do not know him and the truth is not in you. For if you are born of him you cannot commit sin.

Jesus also said: All these things I have done ye can do.

It reads small g, gods

He was talkin about knowing the FATHER, who sent him, whom HE shows to us as humans. No one can see the Father unless they are sinless to perfection. Christ was perfect and came down from the FATHER. No one can ascend unless they are perfect in Spirit and without sin . This is precisely what Christ does for a believer. Makes them sinless in the FATHERS EYE. HE shows us the Father, only by way of Himself.
It is called the GRACE of GOD. Grace to make you perfect in the EYE of GOD the FATHER. For the Father is the JUDGE of perfection. Rightiousness. The right to enter Heaven.
Without Christ being united to you, you cannot enter Heaven.
It's the plan GOD had to impliment to SAVE HIS creation.
John 3:16
Otherwise satan would have DOMINION over all the EARTH.
GOD could have destroyed satan anytime. This is GOD's plan to SAVE HIS creation, MAN. LOVE beyond measure.
The WHOLE premis of the Bible.
"All these things", comment was given to the Deciples BEFORE penticost as Jewish believers. The Deciples were given extra ordinary FAITH to perform miracles as this was the beginning of conversion to the inheritance of GRACE. The inheritance is, GOD within man's heart, the hope of any Glory. Greater miracles does not mean what you think.
The greatest miracle is GOD in YOU. What is revealed after is what is also greater miracles. Loving your neighbor as yourself.
It would be the end of WAR.
Heaven came down and GLORY filled my soul.
My sins were washed away and my night was turned to day.
And now HE has made a light to the World.
Did you know GOD uses candlesticks to help shine a light?

You don't know what you are talking about again

What is happening is that the Jews were going to stone Jesus.

And Jesus asks them for what works are you going to stone me.

They say that it is not for your works but for blasphemy for saying that you are a God we will stone you.

Jesus answers them saying: John 10:34 "Does it not say in the old law, I said ye are Gods?"

What Jesus is quoting is Psalms 82:6 where the Universal Spirit says

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

So was Jesus a small god? Because he is applying it to himself using it in his defense."

If an elephant has offspring the offspring is another elephant same for a cow who has a calf that becomes a full grown Cow and a dog that has puppy's that become full grown doge.

So if we are children of God then we must be Gods too.

It is just like people like you to keep us down afraid to accept our birth right which is Christhood.

Jesus said it over and over.

As you believe it in you heart so it is!
Because you make it so by believing it so because you have the power of God in you.

According to your faith be it done unto you.
So if you believe you can, you can. If you believe you can't you can't.

Then there is: Whatsoever you asketh in my way, BELIEVING, ye shall receive. Again the key is believing or faith that you will persevere and you will.

Scientists have fooled people in to thinking they burned them on their finger which they did not. But because they believed they got a blister. Wow what power we can produce by just believing in the thing.

So we are indeed Gods.

Jesus said be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. Now what can be more plain then that?
He is not asking you to try to be perfect, he is telling you to be. Would Jesus tell you to be Perfect if he did not know that you could be? Or did he make a mistake?

No it is you who are too lazy to make the effort to be, you just don't want to.

And again Jesus said: All of these things that I have done ye can do and greater things...

Why do you think sugar pills work? People go to the doctor for a health issue, the Doctor gives them a sugar pill.
A few days later they are batter. What got them better?
Their faith or belief in the pill they believed was medicine is what made them well.

Did you know that a person with multi personalities change the color of their eyes. What power is in us.

It is Gods Power which flows through us all because we are children of the most high, GOD!

I couldn't agree more...

First off...the war is spiritual now, so there is no need take such a stance with Israel. We should not be concerned with things of this world, such as pieces of land, for He did not come for an earthly kingdom, but a spiritual one.

Second off...This is a new development in theology (John Darby in the 1800's) and I think we have to be careful with that (needing to support Israel). God raises governments and tells us to be obedient to them for He placed them there...along with it's rulers. I could pull the scripture for all this, but if you read, you should know.

So what I'm saying is this: the actual physical country of Israel was not around when the US was created/when our constitution was ratified. No where in our constitution does it say, "we must support Israel." Also, if you believe God appoints authorities and kingdoms, then you must also believe that God, in a way, is behind the writing of our constitution and therefore, nothing indicates we must do that. In fact, the framers of the constitution advocated staying out of foreign affairs, so are we going to yield ourselves to the Almighty and His working behind our constitution and the mindset of our framers, or are we going to listen to this new theology where we have to support Israel? I vote the former.

Lastly, if you think otherwise, I strongly suggest looking into (not just glancing over) the biblical, historical, and contextual arguments for preterism/partial preterism. It changed my mind and you will see why there's no need to support Israel so a third temple can be built...it's theologically unsound.

Who Is Israel?

*Note: This was written by a Facebook friend of mine. Reposting here.*


by Mark Church

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a [real] Jew who is one outwardly and publicly, nor is [true] circumcision something external and physical. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and [true] circumcision is of the heart, a spiritual and not a literal [matter]. His praise is not from men but from God.

Romans 9:7-8 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Galatians 3:7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are THE TRUE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 6:15-16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon (the Israel of God.



21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the [then, i.e. first century - Ed.] present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. (end)

In Matthew 23, Jesus told the Jews that they would be held responsible for the murder of every single righteous person that had ever lived. WHY? Because the Jews were going to persecute, chase, and even kill Jesus and Jesus' disciples (Christians). Jesus told the Jews that God was going to judge the nation of Israel for crimes that they weren't even guilty of. Even to this day, Israel persecutes and kills (Palestinian Christians and American Christians). Jesus condemned Israel (Jews) for killing Christians back then in the 1st Century, why would God all of a sudden be okay with the Israeli's persecution and murder of Christians? Doesn't make any sense.

"Israel" has now been EXPANDED to Jews and GENTILES through Faith in Christ. There is no exclusivity or special right given to the physical bloodline of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel). The only ISRAEL that God supports, are the Jews and Gentiles who accept Jesus Christ, and follow Him.

The Apostle Paul (who was a JEW / ISRAELI) said that the TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD was not the physical lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Rather, the TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD are those Jews and GENTILES who put their faith in Christ. There is no other Israel in the eyes of God.

Let's Reign! (Rev. 5:10)
Valrico (Hillsborough County), Florida

Please read Romans 11

and realize there is a distinction between 'natural' Israel and 'spiritual' Israel, and in some cases the two overlap. (Paul, James and Peter's cases, to name a few)

There are specific promises of spiritual restoration to (natural) physical Israel: Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 37: 18-14, Romans 11:11-27.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

There was a distinction...

...between "natural" Israel and "spiritual" Israel at the time of Paul's writing. Since all the genealogical records were destroyed with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, there's no way anyone can know who Abraham's physical descendants are today, nor does it matter:

Rom. 9:6-7 "It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children."

I think Christ made that clear to the Pharisees who thought they were saved because of their bloodline.

Yes, Israel is in two because

Israel that has Faith is Spirit minded and Israel that is in unbelief is Natural minded. Just like the World of the Gentiles.

Since Christ's resurrection all people are judged in one of two ways . Believers or unbelievers. There are no other judgements of blessing or curse, since G-d has given HIS SON.
G-d has a redemption certificate for Israel when the time is full, at the last trump. In the mean time, salvation's gospel comes to all. This includes the house of Israel.
They like all, must Repent and believe.

It *does* matter

because God remembers! He has promised by everlasting covenant to remember. Paul (a redeemed Pharisee, no less) makes the point, 'God's gifts and His call are irrevocable.' and Romans 11:23 - 31. Our 'job' as Paul puts it, is to show them the same mercy God has shown us.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

Jerusalem being destroyed in

Jerusalem being destroyed in 70ad had a lot to do with prophecy being fulfilled (it took 3 1/2 years btw).

This false doctrine coming in has a lot to do with whether someone thinks there is only one way to be saved or two. There is only one way to be saved, Jesus Christ.

John the Baptist:

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

If you are refering to dispensational theology

where there seems to be two routes, I grant their theology often can lead to the 'two paths' solution. I personally have a huge problem with their eschatology. Not all who believe that physical Israel has a place in the kingdom of Messiah are dispensation dividers, however. Some simply support 'Olive Tree Theology', as described in Romans 11.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15


and amen.

Personally I believe most of Revelation is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The evidence that Revelation was written during the time of Nero -- known at the time of his reign as "the tyrant" and "the beast" -- is, in my view, overwhelming. But that's another subject.

bigmikedude's picture

That's easy enough without all the biblical argument

This is America. America has some serious problems. We are in economic crisis and almost bankrupt. Last I checked, I was an American citizen, not an Israeli citizen.

And that is precisely what this post states.

There is no longer Jew or Gentile in God's point of view.
Israel is a worldly project.

However it still involves people, whoever you claim they are.

I'm of Israeli decent and I agree with Ron Paul 100%.

Here's how his economic argument works in favor of this for every $1 spent "protecting Israel" we spend $7 on the militaries of the enemies of Israel and in turn Israel has to spend $1.4 for each $1 we spend on their enemies. We are artificially looting their currency by debasing it through constant war and it needs to stop. They would be in much better shape if we cut funding to the middle east entirely. If you work the math above that means that for every $1 received by Israel they have to spend $9.8, so for every $1 they receive they lose $8.8. The Sheckel has gone down constantly since it was made fiat about 30-40 years ago and was going down even before that because of debt accumulation resulting in currency inflation through money printing due to constant internal war (my dad used to watch war from his rooftop when he was a kid, it was everywhere in Jerusalem).

How would it unfold if we stoped messing with Israel? The US screws up the peace process there and causes the Israeli military to be in a constantly upset state as the US has overthrown every government in the region and replaced them with brutal dictators. Honestly, if the Israeli government gave us the cold shoulder and wanted to establish a peaceful society they could. I think before you throw out biblical views you should look at the exception to the rules first and how they are affected. Traditionally Israelis will send some convicts having committed horrible violent offenses to a Kibbutz, basically a large self sufficient pacifist community. I probably don't need to tell you that the Israeli system of treatment of the exception is better than ours based on state ideals and I think they will treat their Neighbors better than we have. They do not make significant efforts to hinder the activities of day to day individuals and Israelis are welcome onto the settlements and although some are poor, some of these settlements contain great wealth.

Their currency has inflated about 200% in the last 20 years if my memory serves me.

Consult the Book of Armements!



And lo it came to pass thatJesus got the munchies

And then Jesus spoke unto them saying "Holy cats, just listening to you guys maketh me hungry and thirsty and see, there waiteth Mary M with like a boatload of wine coolers but serious guys, all I wanna hear about is a pizza".

Whereupon a great confusion fell upon the disciples and a great argument arose as to what kind of toppings. And this whole thing continued right up until Peter went psycho and chopped somebody's ear off and then somebody called the cops and it ended up with savior getting like totally nailed.

Listening to you guys I'd advise Messiah to wait a while before coming back. When you can get it together enough to order a pizza, maybe just maybe then.

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

The Messiah is not coming back for Christians.

He is coming back to judge. Christians are not under judgement but under GRACE.
The toppings have already been issued. Pizza is on it's way.
Only those who are pizza worthy shall get pizza. The rest shall get their just desert. Desert is what they want, instead of pizza.
My hope is that you know the delivery man.

I said this the other day

I said this the other day when looking at that song that said we're waiting for the judgement day.

Well, I'm not waiting for the judgement day, because I've been saved!!!!

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

No judgement for Christians?

This doctrine is purely unscriptural, yet somehow this “doctrine” ispart of Protestantism which hold tightly onto Sola Scriptura! Scripture does teach us that it is possible for a believer to fall into sin or unbelief and lose their salvation. St. Paul reminds us of the Israelites who had faith and were led by Moses through the Red Sea to safety, yet right away they forgot about God, fell away and were punished. This is a warning to Christians as well. (See 1 Corinthians 10:12). The Book of Hebrews also gives us this warning (see Hebrews 3:12-14). St. Paul did not consider himself to have achieved some kind of “eternal security” because he turned his life towards faith in Christ. However, he does feel it necessary to keep pressing (working hard) towards the goal of the Resurrection (see Phil 3:9-14). St. Paul kept himself in strict discipline so that after preaching to others about Christ and Salvation he might not himself fall away (see 1 Corinthians 9:27). True Christian salvation is not just one day we wake up and have an instance of true faith, but rather it means we must continually “walk the walk” and “talk the talk” throughout our entire lives. We must always because we are weak and sinful ask God for forgiveness and make a true repentance and trusting in the Love of our Lord Jesus Christ. This Orthodox idea of salvation is reiterated by St. Peter, “For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” Clearly, then, it is possible to know Christ and later fall away. We must continually struggle in our spiritual life against the temptations of sin. We must “strive to make our calling and election sure” (II Peter 1:10) Christ reminds us in Matthew 7:21, “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” We see this example also in the Parable of Ten Virgins, five wise and five foolish, the foolish had faith, yet were unprepared to enter with the Bridegroom into Heaven (Matthew 25)

Honestly Lawson, I probably

Honestly Lawson, I probably understand the Bible better than you, so there is no need to be insulting. I didn't read anything but the first five words to know your tone isn't right.

FYI - that indicates I understand the Bible better than you friend. You're not suppose to use that tone, not even to a stranger.

EDITL: Let me look at what your complaining about and read the rest of the message.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

I humbly apologize if you found my tone abrasive

I do not doubt that you know the Bible better than I. However, love dictates that I share what little I do know for sure.
"rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee." I hope to be and do.

Yes, well, even if you don't

Yes, well, even if you don't believe in eternal salvation - and you should, that doesn't have anything to do with the judgement day. So you kindof went off on a tangent.

Posted the verse with judgement day in it.

Edit: But thanks for meeting me halfway in love.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

Ok read it. Those saved won't face the judgement day

Nothing is clearer than John 3:16. And gives them everlasting life. You do not earn your salvation, or maintain your salvation. It is by God's grace alone. God saves you. Not you, your strength, or anything about you.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

A verse that relates

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.