13 votes

The I agree with Ron Paul on everything except Israel argument

***As the one that wrote this I respectfully ask, stop fussing back and forth if you aren't Christian and don't know anyone that is, go read something else it wasn't written for you. Find another way to help Dr. Paul get elected and do something useful with your time. The ones that like myself that are Bible believing Christians can use this for a good. The reason I wrote it is to show a big chunk of people that would vote for Paul except for this one issue what the Bible which they claim to believe says about it. If you don't believe it then that is up to you, you aren't helping anything by fussing. You want to be an atheist be one, you want to fuss about it go to another thread. *****

Christians have been hoodwinked into the "stand with Israel" replacement theology. It is again a case of folks relying on others to do their research and thinking for them. What follows is not about Israel being an ally or anything else, it is just a refute to the whole idea that it is based in Biblical teaching, and since a big chunk of folks that say they agree with Dr. Paul on everything but this could use some help here it is:

Talking to folks about politics, they always bring up Israel. Where is it in the Bible that it says we as a nation or that any nation is supposed to fund and protect the political State of Israel? I think that it is nothing more than a replacement theology for political purposes rather than for God's purposes. Now before you call me anti-Semitic, look up the words definition.

Semite: a member of any number of peoples of Ancient Southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs.

Also I am working under the premise that I believe, and that God's word tells us: 2 Timothy 3:16, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," all scripture is from God, and the Bible does not ever contradict itself, because God does not contradict himself.

Also I am not talking about them being an "ally in the middle east" I mean where in God's Holy Word does it say, protect Israel or stand with Israel? After all, that is supposedly one of the things we have to do isn't it?

God made a covenant with Abraham he would be the father of many nations, Genesis 17 , and the covenant would go through Issac and that lineage would be traced through Issac. Then in Genesis 21 after Abraham sends away Ishmael and Haggar, God comes to Haggar and tells her in verse 17,

"17 God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. 18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”

Now go back to Genesis 16: "11And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

12And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. "

Did you catch that? "Dwell in the presence of all his brethren" . Now there is a lot more to get into in the Old Testament regarding this, here is one last thing Exodus chapter 19:

"5Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

That is God speaking to Moses about the Hebrews that he was then leading from Egypt. Again these are the ones whose lineage was traced through Issac. These are the Jews, the Hebrews, the Orthodox Jews of today. But there is something very important in Exodus 19 verse 5 we need to read: "if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine."

Did the Jews keep their part up? Did they obey God's voice and keep his covenant? And, as Christians don't we operate under the "New Covenant" the one Jesus spoke of? Luke 22 verse 20: "this cup is the New Covenant established by My blood it is shed for you." Who are the heirs to God's Kingdom? Who are his people? See Galatians Chapter 1 verses 6-10,

"6 I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from Him who called you by the grace of Christ, [and are turning] to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another [gospel], but there are some who are troubling you and want to change the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! [c] 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him! [d]

10 For am I now trying to win the favor of people, or God? Or am I striving to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ." Are we as Christians striving to please God with support of the political State of Israel or man? This next passage is Paul writing in Galatians again, talking about the man Cephas, and himself both who were born Jews, and again writing under the words of God not his own. Galatians Chapter 2 verses. 15-21:

"15 We are Jews by birth and not "Gentile sinners"; 16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. [f] And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ [g] and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will [h] be justified. 17 But if, while seeking to be justified by Christ, we ourselves are also found to be sinners, is Christ then a promoter [i] of sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild those things that I tore down, I show myself to be a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I have died to the law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; 20 and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the flesh, [j] I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing. "

Now the entire Chapter 3 of Galatians:

1 You foolish Galatians! Who has hypnotized you, [a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed [b] as crucified? 2 I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? [c] 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh? [d] 4 Did you suffer so much for nothing—if in fact it was for nothing? 5 So then, does God [e] supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? [f]

6 Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, 7 so understand that those who have faith are Abraham's sons. 8 Now the Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith and foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, All the nations will be blessed in you. 9 So those who have faith are blessed with Abraham, who had faith. [g]

Law and Promise

10 For all who [rely on] the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue doing everything written in the book of the law. 11 Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous will live by faith. 12 But the law is not based on faith; instead, the one who does these things will live by them. 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. 14 The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brothers, I'm using a human illustration. [h] No one sets aside even a human covenant that has been ratified, or makes additions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say "and to seeds," as though referring to many, but and to your seed, referring to one, who is Christ. 17 And I say this: the law, which came 430 years later, does not revoke a covenant that was previously ratified by God, [i] so as to cancel the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is from the law, it is no longer from the promise; but God granted it to Abraham through the promise.

The Purpose of the Law

19 Why the law then? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise was made would come. [The law] was ordered through angels by means of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not for just one person, but God is one. 21 Is the law therefore contrary to God's promises? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly be by the law. 22 But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin's power, [j] so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. 24 The law, then, was our guardian [k] until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. 25 But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, [l] 26 for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Now don't miss verse 27 of Galatians Chapter 3:

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to the promise.

Could the same be said of us foolish Americans, could it be asked who hypnotized us? There are many more places in the New Testament that tell us these same things. I have not found any thing that tells us that we "need to stand" with the political state of Israel" instead the Bible tells me that due to the Grace of God given to me through Jesus taking on my sin and dying on the cross that I am Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the Promise. It also tells me that Ishmael's decedents are going to be living among their brethren and will have his hand against them. Does it tell me to kill them or fight them? Or does it tell me to share the Gospel? Matthew Chapter 28 Verse 18:

"18 Then Jesus came near and said to them, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of [f] all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, [g] I am with you always, [h] to the end of the age."

So we are told to "stand with Israel" who is telling us this? God, or man? Who is to be obeyed God, or man? Did Paul have a better understanding of God's word since it was revealed to him by God, or does Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Romney, Perry, Cain etc. have a better understanding of God's word? We are told "to stand with Israel" because it is in the Bible, where is it. It is a replacement theology that is politically motivated not Scripturally motivated.

Why are we so quick "to stand with Israel" and support the anti-Christ? 1st John Chapter 2 verses18-23:

"18 Children, it is the last hour. And as you have heard, "Antichrist is coming," even now many antichrists have come. We know from this that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. [f] 21 I have not written to you because you don't know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar, if not the one who denies that Jesus is the Messiah? He is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son can have the Father; he who confesses the Son has the Father as well."

Folks read God's word, don't rely on others to tell you what it says and means, read it. How many times in the Old Testament, the New Testament and after the death of Christ and resurrection of Christ, were the Jewish people and the area now called Israel overrun? Read the Bible, all the Earth is God's not just a strip of land in the modern day middle east called Israel. And as it says in God's word who are Abraham's seed and heirs to the promise? Galatians 3:27

"27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to the promise."

My point is that all this hoopla about "standing with Israel" is not based on Scripture it is based on money and power and is not of God it is of the world.

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wrong israel

When the Scriptures use the word Israel, they are typically referring to the Jews as a body of people, not some country and government calling itself Israel that would appear 2,000 years later. There's a BIG difference between the Jews as a people and the modern Israeli government. No verses in the Bible should be taken to apply to the modern Israeli government.

Also, for what its worth, Revelation actually doesn't mention the anti-christ.

The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt

If they only read the Bible

instead of waving it like a magic Talisman over their heads they would know that these people were condemned by their own actions.
Just goes to show the power of money, suggestion and a compromised clergy!
Supporting Israel, or at least being neutral, is good political optics.

My Two Cents

Anyone that I've spoken to that has an emotional connection to Israel is entirely irrational in their logic. I've mentioned all the obvious items, including the fact that Israel has 200+ Nukes, that we arm their enemies, that we violate their sovereignty, etc. - BUT.......all I hear in return is "but all Muslims must die because if we don't kill them first, they will kill us."

Man, I wish I were kidding. Entirely depressing to hear this so often but I'll keep doing my best to educate others. It's the least I can do.....

That's why the purpose of

That's why the purpose of this thread is important. It has to be shown to them by Scripture.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.


Here are two arguments I saw on internet postings where people defended Paul's position on Iran nuking Israel. When I show these two posts to people, the logic is so strong that it overwhelms them and forces them to immediately realize that they have been exposed to war propaganda. It's that easy to convert people to Ron Paul at that point. You can also add that he would let Israel do what Israel wanted to do. Doug Wead has great articles on Ron and Israel.

Here are the two posts:

Post #1 - "Responding to the "Iran will attack Israel"
Just mention a few points:

1. Our CIA has said there is 0 evidence.
2. Iran enriched to 20% Uranium which is exactly what is needed for the Nuclear plant built by US companies!
3. It takes 90%+ enrichment for a bomb..
4. The facilities are overseen by IAEA

after mentioning these facts say "SUPPOSE they are making it"

1. Israel has one hell of a military and 300 NUKES, they'll deal with it like they did with Iraq without a problem..

"IF they manage to get it"

1. Iran will not bomb Israel because they don't want to get nuked themselves

"IF they are mad maniacs and would take a chance"

MAJOR POINT! (something I think even Ron should use!)
1. Remember Israel and Palestine are essentially the SAME land! Nuking Israel = Nuking Palestine.

Ask them will Iran nuke Palestine? The consequences of which would be no one will be able to occupy that land everyone is fighting for. All the Muslim countries will declare war on Iran= and remember Pakistan DOES have a nuke, and their religious parties (Sunni) will not hesitate to go after Iran for nuking Palestine.

Hezbollah will turn against Iran for nuking Palestine. EVERYONE will turn against Iran...

So the real question is: Will Iran nuke Palestine?

If not, then they sure as hell can't nuke Israel. You don't tell a bomb 'stop at this border'- the destruction will be widespread. Palestine will be nuked with Israel = get this point across.. If they still don't get it, God help us all! "

Post #8 -

"Let's pretend Iran has 100 nukes and 100 missiles capable of delivering that payload. First, every single missile requires at least 3-4 hours to launch and the heat signature would be seen on satellite. Within less than an hour, we would likely see one of the largest air strikes in history take place to take those missiles out. Since it's likely approx. 80% of these would be launched from mobile launch stations, they would be entirely vulnerable to a counter air strike. The other 20% that are launching underground, once launched would have to pass through the most dense and advanced missile defense on the planet. As a matter of fact, they would nuke themselves as most of these would be shot down over their own country.

I know this because I used to train constantly for this scenario, being a primary missile defense operator. I could shoot down 100 Iranian missiles with my pinky - I do mean that literally. I actually found the N. Korean threat much more serious and from my perspective a whole lot more fun to train for.

BTW, our own PATRIOT systems surround Iran on all sides; Turkey, Kuwait, Iraq, and UAE. We then have AEGIS systems throughout the Red Sea, Mediterranean Sea, and Gulf of Oman. Then Israel has their own massive air defense capability. Essentially, it's designed to be mathematically impossible for anything in that region to deliver a missile payload. We could basically handle a 1000 missile in the air at any given time.

With that knowledge, it's an embarrassing idea to think Iran would even attempt to try. Further, if Iran was highly interested in nuclear weaponry.. they would not be going about it in this way. They would secretly obtain them from China, Russia, India, Pakistan, etc. Ultimately, it's silly to think they haven't already done this.

This is all war propaganda.

It is my belief that we are trying to promote a full out invasion into Iran. This is PURELY about their oil and banks. This goes back to the same struggle that's been happening since 1953, which Ron Paul accurately brought up in the debate. U.S. is basically pissed off that Iran won't submit to our will. They want their oil and their banks. They've been pretty successful about maintaining control of their oil distribution. I think this has a lot more to do with Iran having one of the few banks left on the planet not influenced by the IMF, therefore a direct threat to the potential of an international currency standard.

Destabilizing Iran is essential for our agenda to become the one and only super global power on the planet. With Iran out of the picture, Russia, China, and India would be completely dependent on our oil distribution. This is why we are in Afghanistan first (the most difficult to control) and why 99% of the population has no idea we went into Uzbekistan.

This is outlined very well in the book, The Grand Chessboard. Mike Ruppert does one of the best lectures I have seen on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-XIeb879SY

My explanation is probably the closest you will get to the reality of the Iranian situation.. without outright violating OPSEC.

Michael Ruppert gives a lecture of Zbigniew Brzezingski's 1997 book : The Grand Chessboard..."

For captioned Ron Paul videos, check out http://www.youtube.com/user/KramerDSP or http://www.deafronpaul.blogspot.com

I have pointed this out

to a few Christians and all I got was reamed out. They don't want to or can't handle the truth. Evidently they either don't read or believe or understand what they supposedly go to church every Sunday and study. It also seems they are all using that NIV bible. I haven't read it. Is it different?

In the NIV, this verse is omitted (Phillip and the Eunuch)

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Seems very important that this was removed however some state it was omitted because it was never really in the original manuscript.

Freedom is not: doing everything you want to.
Freedom is: not having to do what you don't want to do.
~ Joyce Meyer

Your Right in one regard...

You're right about the Bible being silent about having to protect Israel from a military standpoint. The Bible does not expressly say that we must fight her battles for her, but the Bible does say that all nations will be judged based upon the way that they treated Israel.

Joel 3:1-2 “For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah andJerusalem,
I will also gather all nations, And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.

This is why I'm not a fan of what Obama has encouraged Israel to do... go back to its previous borders. This brings judgment upon America from a Biblical standpoint, because our president is encouraging Israel to divide it's land. This is one of the reasons God brings all nations into judgment.

Also, you seem to reffer to "replacement theology" as the reverse of what the term really means. Replacement theology reffers to the Christian churches belief that Israel was done away with as a nation and is now replaced by the church. You seem to use it to the other extreme of Israel replacing the church.

I would also like to ask if a Christian continues to respect and follow the ten commandments does that disqualify them eternal life?

Daniel Fortune

I know not course others may take, but as for me, give me Liberty, or give me Death! ~Patrick Henry

actually you're right in one regard, too. But just one.

Yeah, the poster is using the term "replacement theology" is exactly the opposite way of what it actually means. People who believed in replacement theology wouldn't care about Israel, because Israel would be irrelevant at this point, having been replaced by the church.

But you make the mistake of confusing "Israel" in the biblical sense, with "Israel" the modern political nation. In the biblical sense, Israel refers to the Jewish people. This has NOTHING to do with the Zionist government currently calling itself Israel in the Middle East. Do not associate the Zionist state with the Jewish people. Two very different things. We are to treat the Jewish people well (and all people, for that matter). But the Zionist government in Palestine is a different entity all together.

Your interpretation of Joel 3 is, I believe, a bit off. Joel is referring to the bringing back of captives during the Medo-Persian empire of Cyrus and Darius when the Jews were allowed to return to their land and begin a 2nd temple. And it was Cyrus the Great who conquered Babylon in 539 BC, thereby punishing those that had taken the Jews away from their home. That is the time period and the events that are occurring around the time Joel is active, not something that would happen 2500 years later regarding Obama of all unimportant people. The reference to the Valley of Jehoshaphat is particularly poetic because the Jews had won a tremendous victory there before against overwhelming odds- not because of their military might, but because God delivered them. So in mentioning this, God is reassuring His heritage that they will be saved- that they are, in fact, still His heritage in a time when it was not easy for a Jew to have hope.

But to extrapolate these verses to a general rule that "anyone who doesn't support Zionists taking full control of the land is risking the judgment of God" is a huge leap and a huge stretch. Babylon and Assyria were judged for attacking and invading the Jewish kingdom. This is very different than saying that the Jews have an eternal and unqualified claim to bulldoze anyone who lives on this land and that failure to support this results in judgment. God bring nations into judgment for their obedience to God, not their obedience to Zionists.

The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt

Very Good points!

I appreciate the distinction between biblical israel, and democratic israel, because israel is by no means a theocracy as the Bible prescribes. As far as my interpretation of Joel 3, its actually not my interpretation. (I probably should have clarified that). This is what Hebrew roots types say about their defense of Israel, so I'm merely trying to reason with you on the basis of what people argue today. Not views that I personally believe. Thanks for the insights though! I wasn't trying to oppose your views. I've just never heard replacement theology used reversed like that, and I do wonder if obeying the 10 commandments disqualifies a christian from entering into the new covenant?

Daniel Fortune

I know not course others may take, but as for me, give me Liberty, or give me Death! ~Patrick Henry

i hear ya

Yeah, I think a lot of these Christian Zionists like to talk about Joel 3 as support for their position. But, as I said, I think the interpretation I offered is much more sensible- especially in light of the fact that military might was NEVER the grounds for the kingdom, but only obedience to the will of God. It bears mentioning that God was the one who kicked the Jews out of Israel time and time again for disobedience, and God stresses repeatedly that obedience is the key to security and NOT military might. Zionism preaches the reverse.

Yeah, the original poster seems to be confused on what replacement theology actually is. He seems to have it backwards.

I don't see why obeying the 10 commandments would disqualify anyone from anything. The New Covenant doesn't abrogate them but rather builds on them. That's like asking if calculus does away with algebra. No, it builds on it and, if anything, makes it more foundational in the process- not less.

The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt

Under international law the

Under international law the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are not Israel's land.

Bottom line...

Bottom line is that when our leaders or its citizens put the needs and security of any other sovereign nation over our own, they are guilty of treason.

What is critical and central to this debate is the fact that while Zionists are Jews (generally), the reverse is not always true....

See: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm

Bottom line...

Bottom line is that when our leaders or its citizens put the needs and security of any other sovereign nation over our own, they are guilty of treason.

What is critical and central to this debate is the fact that while Zionists are Jews (generally), the reverse is not always true....

See: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm

The banker, Rothchild, was

The banker, Rothchild, was instrumental in establishing Israel as a tool to eventually have the Christians, Jews, and Muslims destroy each other in the third world war. Rothchilds are satanworshippers at the top of the pyramid.
Israel has been hijacked by the Zionists like we have.
I know many young people there want the wars to end and do not want to serve in Israel's military.
Like us, most of the people in Israel are good, as are the Muslim. Our countries' leaders are corrupt and the propoganda is rampant.
"They claim they are Jews and are not, but are the synogogs of Satan."

You are right until this

You are right until this point:

That is God speaking to Moses about the Hebrews that he was then leading from Egypt. Again these are the ones whose lineage was traced through Issac. These are the Jews, the Hebrews, the Orthodox Jews of today

The Jews of today aren't the Heirs of the Promise of Abraham, Issac and Jacob/Israel.

Jew: A descendent of Judah, the son of Jacob of the House of Israel. Not all Israelites are Jews, because there were 11 other tribes.

Jew: A citizen of the land of Judea. Anyone who lives in Judea was a Jew just like someone living in America is an American. When Babylon invaded Judea, that did not make them Heirs of Jacob/Israel.

Jew: A member of a religion. Anyone who adopts the religion of Judaism isn't automatically an Heir of Israel.

Jews aren't the people they claim to be. It is twice said in the book of Revelation that the people who claim to be Jews and are not are the synagogue of Satan.

this looks very impressive, and . . .

I will bookmark it to read in depth--

thank you for taking the time--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

A different view here.

I may not understand exactly what you are saying but here is what I think about this.

I am not not a believer in any religion but...I am happy you are. and this is where I see the separation in church and state I think this is what it means...No wars based on religion and also no alliances based on religion ... everyone has their freedom to believe as they want but not to press it onto others that is why I love America.

good point on separation of . . .

church and state--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

The nation of Israel was

The nation of Israel was destroyed for all time in 70 AD in the final judgment. What exists today has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible; it is not a creation of Yahweh, but a creation of Zionists. No one on Earth can prove any lineage from those people since all the descendant records were destroyed. Israel is no more in the physical sense.

There are other kinds of records...

...but I do not wish to open up that can of worms on this site. Better reserved for church-history themed website discussions.

Cuimhnigh orm, a Dhia, le haghaidh maith.

Records for what? The lineage

Nevermind, it doesn't matter.


...is the record that maps it all out. The results are startling and insightful, but again, not useful for this web discussion...

Cuimhnigh orm, a Dhia, le haghaidh maith.

I'm very interested

In reading about this. Could you please provide a link? Or send it to dagacheme@aol.com thanks

I'd be happy too...

...if I knew what link would give you what you need. My fiancee is a geneticist and is very familiar with these data. She assures me that the database is expanding and revealing interesting things about Jewish ancestry including information about them during the times of Roman occupation. If I find something published, I'll send it over to you.

Cuimhnigh orm, a Dhia, le haghaidh maith.

Do more research...

Just because we are and have been in this mess with Israel for quite some time, doesn't mean it should have started when it did and how it did several decades ago.

Find out how this parasitic "relationship" came about in the first place. You'll run into one word over and over...corruption.

my thoughts

(1) The Bible uses the word "Israel" in several senses. It can mean (a) the Jewish people in general as descended from Abraham. Here the word is used in a genetic or racial sense. (b) The northern kingdom of Israel resulting from the split of the united monarchy in 930 BC, as opposed to the southern kingdom which was called "Judah". Here the word is used in a geographical/political sense. (c) The people of God who are actually righteously in covenant with him, as gentile Christians are even later referred to as a "New Israel". Here the word is used in a spiritual sense. (d) The patriarch Jacob as renamed by an Angel of God. Here the word is used in a personal, individual sense.

I think it's important to understand this, so that we can see that the current country and government called "Israel" has no relation to the word as it's used in any sense in the Bible. The current country of Israel was largely conceived by atheists such as Theodore Herzl and communists such as Moses Hess. It wasn't formed as a place where Jews would be increasingly devoted to God, but rather with the belief that God, if he even exists, was irrelevant to Jewish well-being and so a highly militarized nation-state would be necessary to safeguard Jewish interests. Mark this, because it's quite important: Israel was formed because of a primary devotion to human Jewishness, not spiritual Godliness,

Actually, it almost wasn't even called "Israel", as the names "Zion", "Judea", "New Judea" were also considered for the name of the new country. In fact, most Jews wanted to call the new country "Judea", not Israel, but after a lot of debate, the name Israel was eventually settled on for the nation. But again, the geopolitical state currently known as Israel has NOTHING to do with the term "Israel" in any sense that it was used in the Bible. So, quoting the Bible where it says to "bless Israel" is absurd. The Bible is not using the word "Israel" in those verses in any way that refers to the current geopolitical state called Israel. I mean, there's a city in West Virgina called Israel. Should we be shipping billions of dollars to Israel, West Virgina, because we're supposed to "Bless Israel"? It's just a name, people. Don't confuse the government of a modern country called Israel with the term as it's used in the Bible.

(2) People always talk about "our great ally Israel", but the current country called Israel has not been a very good ally to the US. Their government has spied on us repeatedly, stolen nuclear secrets from us, and even attacked and killed our military on occasion (The USS Liberty). Again, the current country called Israel is just another modern foreign country in the Middle East, not some ancient biblical institution. Israel is a better country than its neighbors to be sure, but let's not kid ourselves that it's some heavenly place. It's been largely a socialist semi-theocracy in which people from other religions, Christians in particular, are regularly mistreated and abused.

(3) Just for fun, let's just say that when the Bible uses the word Israel, it's somehow specifically referring to the current geopolitical nation called Israel in the year 2011 and all the current members of its government. (Absurd, but let's suppose it just for fun). How do you still logically get to the conclusion that the United States Government should forcibly tax its citizens (which entails threatening them jail if they don't pay) to give money to the Government of Israel? I mean, the Bible also commands us to "make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"? (Matthew 28, 18-20). Soooooo, can we forcibly tax all American citizens regardless of their beliefs, threaten them with jail if they don't pay up, so we can send pastors out to convert all non-Christians in the world? If not, why not? Well, probably because it's immoral and unchristian to force and threaten people against their will to give money to the church. But somehow it's ok to force Christians and non-Christians to pay money to support a Jewish state? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense....

(4) I thought conservatives liked to think about the proper role of government. I mean, that's what conservatives constantly talk about. They say, "yes, health care is good, but it's not the role of federal government to take care of it." Or "support for the arts is good, but it's not the federal government's role to take care of it." Or "charity for the poor is good, but its not the federal government's role to take care of it". So, why is it the government's role to tax its citizens to support the Israeli government's interests? If people want to support the Israeli government, they can do it privately with their own money, like everything else people believe in. Duh. It's called being a small government conservative, people.

(5) The line “He who blesses Israel will be blessed” isn’t in the bible anywhere! This is a mis-quote of Genesis 12:3 where God said to Abraham, “I will bless them that bless you, and curse him that curses you, and in you shall all the families of the earth be blessed.” Notice, the direct “bless-curse” line concerned Abraham and his lineage alone, not Israel the political entity or some other nation calling itself Israel that would form 4,000 years later. And “all the families of the earth” were to be blessed in Abraham, which meant through “his seed,” who was Jesus Christ (see Galatians 3:16). In order to receive that very blessing, individuals must be willing to be “turned away” from their sins by God’s grace (see Acts 3:25,26).

In Deuteronomy 28, God said if Israel followed Him she would be “blessed,” but if she strayed, she would be “cursed.” Throughout the Old Testament, God’s blessing or curse upon the Israelites was connected to their faith and obedience to His will. In the Bible, there is NO UNCONDITIONAL BLESSING upon any individual or nation that chooses to reject faith and disobey God. Paul said that “glory, honor, and peace” would come upon “the Jew first, and also the Gentile,” if they do what is right, whereas “indignation and wrath” would come “upon every soul of man that doeth evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile … for there is no respecter of persons with God” (Romans 2:8-11).

The entire Zionist movement is built upon denying God's prerogative of cursings and blessings and instead fashions an attempt to force the hand of destiny through military strength alone. Every Christian should be 100% opposed to such hubris.

The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt


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