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Precious Metals no Longer a Safe Haven

Last week there was a major paradigm shift that should trouble all precious metal holders including myself. The problem is that most of the precious metal market is no longer rooted in the value and scarcity of physical material.

Most of the investment market is priced on precious metals that do not exist, they are paper "claims" through futures and ETFs (e.g. ETF GLD). A big part of the sudden downturn in PM prices last week can be attributed towards the fact that "CME hiked gold margins by 21%, silver by 16% and copper by 18%" (This was covered by Zero Hedge http://www.zerohedge.com/news/case-closed-cme-hikes-gold-sil...)

ETFs have been exploding at a rate of over 40% a year for the last decade. A big surprise is that ETF trading accounts for 35% to 40% of all exchange volume, according to Morningstar Inc. -- http://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:MORN

When you buy PMs today, you are entering a market largely dictated by the volatility of paper facsimiles as opposed to the "intrinsic value" of what you may think is a tangible commodity.

The bottom line is that PMs, like most markets, are thoroughly manipulated. PMs are not the tangible assets that they may have been several years ago. It is time to find other safe havens.


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If you don't hold it

you don't own it.

$ Collapse a Mathematical Certainty

to face the reality, - let go of paper, see educational video that covers this topic & much more, wrapped in 13 minutes,-
Economic Collapse a Mathematical Certainty -

It´s the only safe heaven

A rigged sell off does nothing to the long term trend of gold and silver. It is higher than it was last year and will be higher next year due to paper printing. It has been this way for 11 years and it will continue until they stop printing and we have a new metal based money.
Regarding deflation, we would have it if they allowed it, they won´t so end of story. They will fight deflation with inflation so long as they can with a disaster as the result. A deflationary collapse will come at the end of the printing.
But ofc gold & silver does well in both environments anyway as it is a FLIGHT TO QUALITY. These paper manipulations will come to an end.
Simple and concise.

These things repeats over and over again in history, lets look at Sweden

Sweden Monetary History


Copper 1668-1709
Paper 1709-1719 Suspected bank panic in parliament
Copper 1719-1745
Paper 1745-1776 Suspected bank panic in parliament
Silver 1777-1789
Paper 1789-1803 IRREDEEMABLE notes issued by the Debt Office came out, pushed out Riksbank redeem notes
Silver 1803-1809
Paper 1809-1834 Suspected bank panic in parliament
Silver 1834-1873
Gold 1873-1914
Paper 1914-1924 Suspected bank panic in parliament
Gold 1924-1931
Paper 1931-1951 Bank panic in parliament
Gold 1951-1971
Paper 1971- Suspected bank panic at the US Federal reserve

Over a period of 343 years, Sweden's currency has switched between paper and metal 13 times.
On average, we have changed currency every 26 years.
The longest period with the metal was 80 years.
The longest period with the paper 1971 - to now, is about 40 years.

The more I thought about this

The more I thought about this last night the more I wonder who this guy actually works for? He is misrepresenting the reasons for the drop in precious metals pricing as I stated in my other post. He is shielding banks from their role and he is completely ignoring the real reason to acquire precious metals and why this is a buying opportunity. Why would this guy be feeding the sell mentality other than for some hidden agenda?

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written."

~ Ron Paul, End the Fed

You Are Right !

He is very clearly "NOT" in agreement with Dr. Paul's views on precious metals, and has been posting his opposite views on metals on this forum, for a very long time.


..."PMs are not the tangible assets that they may have been...

...several years ago. It is time to find other safe havens."




So why do Central Banks hold Gold in reserves?
Oh, yea...like the Bernenke recently said..."TRADITION."


Enjoy you're "other" safe haven then!

Please don't talk to us like we are village idiots. Thanks.

RON2012PAUL...The r3VOLution continues...
"I always win"
+GOLD and SILVER are money+

Oh really?

I'll buy yours. (=

Michael Nystrom's fists can punch through FUD.

Don't sell it to

a drunk place kicker.

I will buy it.


I thought the "Vander Jagt" name was safe until a goofed field goal kick at the 100.

Thanks. :-D I forgot about that.

(Edit: Now I forget what line that play was on....well, it was a self-fulfilling prophesy anyway.)

Michael Nystrom's fists can punch through FUD.

I like this better

I prefer to brag about this end of the Vander Jagt's: ;-)

The site also quotes Reagan as saying, "Some call me the great communicator but if there was one thing I dreaded during my eight years in Washington it was having to follow Guy Vander Jagt to the podium.”

Michael Nystrom's fists can punch through FUD.

Great buying opportunity for

Great buying opportunity for gold and silver. These two metals will sky rocket in the not to distant future when the dollar collapse's. They are TRUE money........


Actually, we are currently

Actually, we are currently seeing what saw from 2008-2010 with JP Morgan Chase manipulating the price of silver and gold futures by amassing massive short positions. Today multiple banks are doing the same thing; gaining massive short positions on EFTs and then colluding with each other so they can introduce spoof orders and take advantage of their short positions. Honestly, I think it's a great buying opportunity for those of us who are buying precious metals for long-term wealth protection or a SHTF situation.

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written."

~ Ron Paul, End the Fed

I checked the Ron Paul Yellow Pages and...

pretty much without exception, all advertisers there will accept silver. Having some experience with this, I will guess that they have an independent pricing system. That is to say, they have set prices in silver that do not fluctuate with the value of the frn. I know I do.

This hurts business when the frn/silver ratio is high, but gives the right message, so that people stock up when the ratio is low if they want my services.

And I don't think we really want to view silver as an investment. That is not the solution. We need to use silver as money. Period.

Every time I see the ratio drop, I think "it's a good time to exchange some more of these worthless frns."

Gold is the money of kings. Silver is the money of gentlemen. Trade is the money of workers. Paper is the money of slaves and fools.

Safe haven?

I don't know about safe haven per say but metals are still a good place to put money so that you are protected from the ultimate manipulator - THE FED.

Physical is what matters. The price activity will be manic. We will see $100 swings in gold daily. Silver will drop down when the bottom comes out of the financial system. In 2008 silver went down to $8 during the crisis.

I have not heard a credible case from any source that outlines how the TPTB will let the banks fail honestly. Make no mistake the banks are insolvent but they have a unique position in western society. The banks own the politicians. That is just a fact.

No matter what the populations demand, when it comes to the banks, the politicians will do the required bidding of their masters. See the bailouts in the states in 2008/9 and Germany now for example of this reality.

The banks will fail but not until the dollar/euro is destroyed after the failed attempts to save them & their worthless debt.

Europe is trying to put together €5trillion in bailout resources between the EIB, IMF, ECB. This is insanity and the banks will take everyone's economies down with them before surrendering to the reality of insolvency. The only way this doesn't happen is for the people to rise up.

The people protesting isnt rising up. I do not see the American population capable even if their spirit is willing. My fellow citizens are so dependent on being told the simplest tasks that the ability to reason is almost breed out of contemporary Americans. If you gave Joe six-pack a quarter he probably could not come up with two dimes.

Physical metals will be the last monetary man standing. You will want parallel bi-metal plans:
Brass and lead
Silver and gold

When the time comes price will be meaningless it will matter how much you have.


Liberty = Responsibility

Gold as Currency.

you might enjoy this article :
Gold Is Quickly Becoming My Personal Currency -
with -
"I believe physical gold owners are the smartest of all investors".

Ron Paul hoists flag of free competition in currency -

Employ common sense...

To have zero gold/silver is insane in this endless paper printing environment.

To have 100% gold/silver is a gamble as we simply don't know how government's will respond once we hit critical mass ... no one knows what the new monetary system will entail until it's here .. or unless you're behind the scene pulling strings.

Answer? Own real estate, own gold/silver, own carefully selected foreign stocks, own carefully selected domestic stocks, and keep some cash on hand. Personally, I'd tend to favor a larger percentage towards gold/silver than the standard 5-10%, but that's me. On another note, I would shy from Treasury Bonds as that market is setting itself to be the largest bubble we've seen to date.

In crisis mode, cash is king. But what's king when the crisis is centered around the cash not being worth much? Take a guess.

I'm not sure what to think because it is disturbing that metals

are priced in federal reserve notes but that's all we have to work with.

But if the money masters decide at some point to rejigger the whole system, they could claim gold or silver are priced at a fixed amount (say $10.00 an ounce) and it might stick for a while.

Like they did in 1933.

Of course in the end, the free market sets the price but it could take decades of artificial devaluation which would kill the investment.

I've always thought precious metals were a store of wealth but that storage is STILL based on U.S. dollars in the form of federal reserve notes.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

Don't quit your day job

Precious metals are not a safe haven. They are mighty volatile. You believed they were a safe haven only because they were going up. That is like believing stocks a safe haven in the late 90s or real estate a safe haven in the early 00s.

I don't think the gold run is over yet but I also recognize I can always be wrong. And when I am wrong it is not because some secret conspiracy of manipulators.

If you think the recent gold drop is due to a conspiracy of manipulators, you do not understand how these markets work. I recommend you get yourself a financial advisor you trust and stop spreading misinformation that can hurt people.

Ya know

what the difference between Gold/Silver and the rest of the worlds investments is?

They are tangible.

I'd personally suggest the items I listed before but Gold/Silver would be my next hedge against an economic collapse.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

You must be a financial

You must be a financial advisor, because many of them don't know shit. Financial Advisors are certified in being able to move your money into the products they were told to put them in. Many financial planners have their heads up their you know where when it comes to understanding the economy and the direction things are headed. If you think that silver market manipulation is not real then you are in total error. Go here for starters: http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/...
and this one is even better:

Gold is elemental. Gold is very stable . Price croons & swoons.

Gold is elemental. Gold is very stable.

Learn what to value in your own way.

Quitting my various jobs did me no harm. There are plenty of ways to get by.

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

Great investigative work here

Great investigative work here (sarcasm). FYI Silver/Gold manipulation is old news. Also... Every time there is a major manipulation the physical market becomes more detached from the paper market. If you look at Ebay the very cheapest you can find Eagles now is $36.25 per ounce, $7 above spot. Premiums for physical are increasing. Eventually, the ETFs will fail. When they do those with physical will be the only winners. One certainly must realize that a market cannot be manipulated forever. It can perhaps be done so for a long time but definitely not forever. Physical silver is in record demand, every indicator you can think of shows this. Yet the paper price does not reflect this. The physical market is now exhibiting signs of price fixing as buying increases sharply as the price is forced downward without reflecting that demand in the spot price. For example as the price started to dip a local dealer I know sold the entirety of his 3000 ounces in Eagles at $4 over in less than 24hrs. Before spot even hit $36/oz. his supply was gone. This dip should only shake out the dabblers. Although one would thing this would scare buyers for some time into the future that was not the case during the collapse from $50/oz. nor does it seem to be the case during this dip. If you have been around since the last campaign and lets say that that was where you first learned of Dr. Paul and investing in Silver/Gold... Well you're still up 100% on those investments made prior to 2009. What's a temporary setback like this really matter? I say let them manipulate. It just give us more great buying opportunities before they lose their grip, and rest assured, they will lose their grip.

Hahaha .. good laugh. Thanks!

So let me get this straight Larry. You believe the manipulation will go on indefinitely? That there will never be any recourse to the unending printing by the Fed? And that we certainly should throw out thousands of years of ecomonic law for the new "paradigm" that we've created in the last 40 years which is based on derivatives of derivatives of paper currencies backed by insurmountably indebted nations who borrow ad infinitum to pay back further debts with no substantive backing?

Yeah. Sounds fool proof. What could go wrong. I'm selling all my gold and silver tomorrow.

If that is the case,

what would you consider to be a safe haven?

Here's a tip

Food, Firearms and Ammunition. In the coming years, worth it's weight in Gold easily. :)

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

if i am going to be

crouching in my apartment, cooking rice with stored water because the faucets no longer work, and shooting a wave of homeless people trying to steal my rice, i don't know if i'd consider that to be a "safe haven".

Then use some common sense....

get out of your apartment and out of the cities. You won't survive in the cities...

The fall of the Soviet Union would be a good lesson.

Just prior to the collapse the people were reduced to hunter/gatherers.

But The Soviet Regime killed at least 60 million in 74 years. Hard to imagine the the general population could or would match those levels.

Yuri Maltsev is the best account I have found.

Yuri lamented when the KBG Colonel Putin was elected saying that "Meat votes for meat grinder!"

For fun:

Free includes debt-free!

That's the same nightmare I imagined, LOL.

The government is the danger and is the chief fear-monger.

The G20 protests, Greek riots, the protests in France and the Wall Street demonstration are all stage plays designed to scare people and legislatures into foolish and self-destructive action. IMHO.

Free includes debt-free!