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Do most RP supporters believe Pearl Harbor was a set-up and WWII was unnecessary?

Just read Patrick Buchanan's Hitler, Churchill and the Unnecessary War. Do you believe WWII was avoidable?

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Similar discussion on past DP

Similar discussion on past DP thread here with great points. http://www.dailypaul.com/11169/question-on-isolationism-ww2

especially note this post - great info about us cutting off Japans critical oil supply, forcing them to do something.
September 8, 2003 issue
Copyright © 2003 The American Conservative

The Tojo Doctrine

by Pat Buchanan

RP R3VOLution

turling

Please read "The Creature from Jekyll Island." It's all there.

Ron Paul is My President

There are many great sources but these two are excellent

The book specific to Pearl Harbor; what FDR knew,the McCollum plan and other classified material have been exposed by Robert Stennett using those Government classified documents obtained using the Freedom of Information act. Stennett's book is Day of Deceit. Link is to a wikipedia bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_Deceit

The conspiracy book Shadows of Power by James Perloff (a former liberal that onced treated the conspiracy of history as fanciful nonsense)includes a power-packed chapter on Pearl Harbor and the role of the CFR in orchestrating WWII and the creation of the UN in the aftermath of that war as the final solution to ending all wars!https://www.jbs.org/shop/shadows-of-power

Perloff wrote a brief article on WWII at thenewamerican.com titled:Hawaii was surprised. FDR was not:http://www.thenewamerican.com/history/american/574

archtoplee

The wiki link mostly debunks Deceit book

so wouldn't consider that a good source to support the theory, although I do believe FDR knew of impending attack somewhere. Some say he thought Japan would have attacked us via Manilla first...guess we had a military presence there.

RP R3VOLution

Perloff's pearls on Pearl Harbor, Churchill, and Germany

"...Roosevelt dispatched his closest advisor, Harry Hopkins, to meet British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in January 1941. Hopkins told Churchill: 'The President is determined that we [the United States and England] shall win the war together. Make no mistake about it. He has sent me here to tell you that at all costs and by all means he will carry you through, no matter what happens to him — there is nothing he will not do so far as he has human power.'"

"William Stevenson noted in A Man Called Intrepid that American-British military staff talks began that same month under "utmost secrecy," which, he clarified, 'meant preventing disclosure to the American public.'"

"...Robert Sherwood, [FDR] the president's friendly biographer, said: 'If the isolationists had known the full extent of the secret alliance between the United States and Britain, their demands for impeachment would have rumbled like thunder throughout the land.'"

FDR's betrayal was nearly exposed by a patriot that worked at the US embassey in London. Perloff writes:

"... in 1940 when Tyler Kent, a code clerk at the U.S. embassy in London, discovered secret dispatches between Roosevelt and Churchill. These revealed that FDR — despite contrary campaign promises — was determined to engage America in the war. Kent smuggled some of the documents out of the embassy, hoping to alert the American public — but was caught. With U.S. government approval, he was tried in a secret British court and confined to a British prison until the war's end.

FDR tied to provote the nazi's first but they wouldn't take the bait.Perloff: "...War II's early days, the president offered numerous provocations to Germany: freezing its assets; shipping 50 destroyers to Britain; and depth-charging U-boats. The Germans did not retaliate, however. They knew America's entry into World War I had shifted the balance of power against them, and they shunned a repeat of that scenario. FDR therefore switched his focus to Japan. Japan had signed a mutual defense pact with Germany and Italy (the Tripartite Treaty). Roosevelt knew that if Japan went to war with the United States, Germany and Italy would be compelled to declare war on America — thus entangling us in the European conflict by the back door. As Harold Ickes, secretary of the Interior, said in October 1941: 'For a long time I have believed that our best entrance into the war would be by way of Japan.'"

Navy man Robert Stennett brought new light to the FDR knew beforehand theory with his book Day Of Deceit.

Perloff's The New American article: "...Much new light has been shed on Pearl Harbor through the recent work of Robert B. Stinnett, a World War II Navy veteran. Stinnett has obtained numerous relevant documents through the Freedom of Information Act. In Day of Deceit: The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor (2000), the book so brusquely dismissed by [movie] director Bruckheimer, Stinnett reveals that Roosevelt's plan to provoke Japan began with a memorandum from Lieutenant Commander Arthur H. McCollum, head of the Far East desk of the Office of Naval Intelligence. The memorandum advocated eight actions predicted to lead Japan into attacking the United States. McCollum wrote: 'If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act of war, so much the better.' FDR enacted all eight of McCollum's provocative steps — and more."
http://www.thenewamerican.com/history/american/574

archtoplee

If you substitute Pearl Harbor for the World Trade towers

and put in certain ME countries for Japan, it almost reads the same. The 9/11 theories still abound: Our govt Let it happen on purpose aka LIHOP

RP R3VOLution

yes

I believe there was a lot more to WWII than most of us know. This is true of almost every thing "our?" government has had anything to do with.
For those who keep saying why do we keep bringing up "that conspiracy crap" all the time and "Ron Paul doesn't believe in all that stuff"; I say, you're wrong on both counts.

Ron Paul will not publicly confirm conspiracy theories because it's hard enough waking up Americans to his ideas and he doesn't want to make it any harder, not because he doesn't believe in conspiracies. How do I reach that conclusion without talking to the man? By simply looking at his viewpoints. You could not come to the conclusions he has come to without having studied alternative historical conclusions. And for most of us, I'd say we could not be Ron Paul followers/admirers if we had not studied alternate history as well. It simply would not be possible to escape the propoganda conditioning "our?" government performs on us all, if we didn't question the official version of events. I'm not sure how someone can say they are a Ron Paul supporter and not believe there is a conspiracy in government to withold the truth from the people.

Ron Paul himself tries often to take the "woowoo" fringe lunatic connotation away from the word "conspiracy", by pointing out that we all "conspire" in a way, to get our viewpoint out there and see it prevail. I don't however see this comment by Dr. Paul as meaning there are no conspiracies. He is just trying to remove the negative slant so many people and the MSM put on the word.

Someday soon, when all is revealed about what "our?" government has done, the ones who screamed the loudest critisizing those who believed in conspiracy theories will be the loudest to say "How come nobody told ME!?"

I Agree disclosethetruthnow: GOOD POST

The winners write the history. Conspiracy theories are exceptional events in that we will never know the truth, the whole truth, so help us God. That is what makes them conspiracy theory, the lack of light, truth. We can talk all we want, rant, believe whatever we want, even KNOW what we KNOW to be fact and truth, like Ron Paul winning straw polls, but we will never know the truth as a whole, even when we know for a fact what the truth is, because it will not go on MSM, or be written into history the way we know it, so it remains conspiracy theory.

If Japan was hellbent on attacking...

Whether FDR knew the attack was coming or not, Japan was hellbent on attacking us. Once they did, big or small, sucker punch or not, Germany follows suit by declaring war. Seems unavoidable to me.

That said, I want to say that WW2 was our last justified, moral, and legal war. Because of that, once it began we fought to win and won quickly compared to today's wars. It costs lives like crazy, but it was one we could be proud of fighting. That is what happens when you fight a war that comes to you and one that you don't provoke yourself.

Some say our "isolationism" made things worse because we could have stopped Hitler and others sooner...but if we had had a pre-emptive strike back then, would we have had the amount of support within the country we had? Maybe if we had not been as clearly justified as we were it would have dragged on like all wars since.

So, it didn't matter

that we might have prevented the lost of life at Pearl harbor, because they would have attack us anyway?

Its does matter. It matters a lot when the President carelessly or deliberately makes decisions to cost troops lives, even if a war is necessary.

You look at all the troops lost and maimed as mere statistic. A sum total of numbers that was going to happen anyway. I see them as individuals who had a lot to live for, and how many lost their lives due to the machinations and bumbling of their presidents and generals who made strategic decision based on politics and not on the best way to fight the war.

You need to really read up more on WW2. If you don't learn from history, then you are bound to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

Conscience does not exist if not exercised

"No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up!
---Lily Tomlin

....And We Let Them Get Away

....And We Let Them Get Away With It | THE PLAIN TRUTH by Judge Napolitano 11/17/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaPqNJj81xU

The Judge mentioned this a couple days ago. My answers to your 2 questions are:

1) Yes, I do believe it was a set up. Notice all of our carriers were not in Pearl Harbor. Just a battleships. After WW1 naval warfare doctrine changed from a battleship centric task forces to carrier centric task forces, which we still operate under to this day. Battleships were becoming obsolete.

2) No, I do not believe it was avoidable. The war in the pacific may have been avoidable had we not cut off trade and imposed sanctions on Japan and antagonized them into attacking us, but the war in Europe was not avoidable at all. Had we not gotten involved, all Europeans would today be speaking German and the Nazi party would still be in power to this day. Eventually, they would have come to our shores.

That's just my opinion, but I haven't read Buchanan's book yet either. Turling, please tell us about it. Please write a review of it for the DP! Thank you.

Yes, FDR did his level best to drag the USA into WWII.

Joseph Kennedy, JFK's dad, was the ambassador to England. He returned to fight FDR on this when he caught wind of the games FDR was playing, trying to get America into WWII. FDR "messed with" the Japanese in the Pacific, boarding their ships, interrupting their routes through the South China Seas, and many more things....and then loudly "parked" all US war ships at Pearl Harbor. A "surprise"? Really? And since it was Japan that attacked, why was Japan and the pacific front to get the LAST attention? Why did FDR declare war on Germany and go full steam ahead straight to Europe? It kind of reminds you of 9/11, attackers from Saudi Arabia and then a mild response to Afghanistan and a full on invasion of Iraq. Iraq. Iraq was on GW Bush's radar from the first day in office and the only question was, HOW TO GET THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BEHIND IT? See 60 minutes here: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=592691n

Now that you have read that book, quickly go get this book,

THE DARK SIDE OF CAMELOT, by Seymour Hersh. It will Blow Your Mind. http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Camelot-Seymour-Hersh/dp/031... You will learn what real politics looks like behind the curtain.... you will then come back here and notice that right now in this 2011 campaign ...

1) Mitt Romney has started his anti-China campaign
2) Obama has started his anti-china campaign

and you will reflect on the fact that it takes only 3 men in American to effect a coup: The Head of the CIA, The Head of the FBI, and the Joint Chief of Staff. That's it. A willing VP and a willing Secretary of State does not hurt either, but 3 is all it takes. Then you will reflect further that all 5 heads love the war on Terror, disagree with President Obama on Afghanistan withdrawal, and all subscribe to the neoconservative plan of US Hegemony and are busy following this plan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Ce...

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

All war is madness ...

barbarity and a total breakdown of civilization. In the sense that a nation's leadership must goad its populace into this depraved condition and that the populace willingly succumbs to it through its misguided sense of patriotism, all wars are avoidable and unnecessary. The proximate cause is therefore irrelavent. Even in the case of a just war where one nation is the total aggressor and the other a passive aggrieved, it is still avoidable except for the paranoia of the aggressor. People as individuals and as nations certainly have a right to defend themselves. A totally passive nation which has had war brought to it is nonetheless plunged into the madness. If it emerges victorious, it will still be less pure and noble for the experience of the inhumanity.

I've only been to war once. My everlasting memories are these: the overwhelming smell of death and things burning and smoldering; a landscape littered with the destruction of things built in peace in the spirit of cooperation by civilised people; the witness of once steadfast souls consumed with racial hatred and murderous lust; infamy, butchery and sadism.

Make war no more. Ron Paul 2012 for a more peaceful planet.

Absolutely

FDR provoked the Japanese to attack so we could get into WWII, because the American people didn't want to go into war. It was a created crisis to get the American people to react and want to go to war. It was all about changing the map of Europe with the Versailles Treaty for economic justifications. Ron Paul knows all about it and I've heard him speak of it.

ron paul talks about how our

ron paul talks about how our foreign policy provoked the attack but has never said it was intentional or that the US allowed or setup the attack.. Because that is crazy and he is not..

Hey Rockstar.........

Sorry to break it to you Rockstar.....but the U.S. provoked Japan into attacking us. And to make it worse, the U.S. knew the attack was coming....and let it happen. The American people were stronlgy against getting involved in WWII. So our government "sacrificed" thousands of American lives in order to galvanize the people.

If you have never read the book, I suggest you read Day of Deceit. After you're done reading it, I have no doubt you will change your mind. I've given that book out to over 15 people over the years....they have all changed their minds after reading the book.

I'll give you just a little taste of the book now....if you want to learn the truth.....buy the book.

Rockstar, have you ever heard about the McCollum Memorandum....a.k.a...The Eight Action Memo? Don't feel bad if you didn't....nobody heard about the Memo until 1995. It was kept secret for about 54 years. The author of Day of Deceit got the Memo through a Freedom Of Information Act.

Here's a summation of the Memo......whic was written a year BEFORE Pearl Harbor...........

""""McCollum wrote this plan, this memorandum, in October 1940. In the memo McCollum is expressing that it’s inevitable that Japan and America are going to go to war, and that Nazi Germany’s going to become a threat to America’s security.""""

""""McCollum is saying that America’s going to have to get into the war. But he also says that public opinion is against that. So, McCollum then suggests eight specific things that America should do to provoke Japan to become more hostile, to attack us, so that the public would be behind a war effort. And because he was born and raised in Japan, he understood the Japanese mentality and how the Japanese would react.""""

so a follow up question -

who benefited the most by us going into the war? Was Pearl Harbor the only attempt to get us into the war? Who had the ear of the President?

RP R3VOLution

ww2 should never have happened

It was a failure of big government.
ww2 itself was blowback

Can we move this

To a section labeled The Crazy Ron Paul Supporter's Rants so people don't use this to paint all Ron Paul supporters as crazy conspiracy nuts?

To think the government moved a huge number of its pacific fleet to get wiped out at Pearl Harbor to kick off a 2 war front with the Axis Powers is looney!! The attack on Pearl crippled the US fleet and it took a long time for the US to rebuild it's fleet causing the US to lose a number of huge battles! We came extremely close to losing the pacific war to Japan as a result of Pearl. The US was not the arrogant super power it is today. The US government would not take that big of risk just to justify going to war.. Pearl was a huge military error.. That is all.

Look at the bigger picture

There was no way for us to really "lose" to Pacific war.

Admiral Yamato, Japan's greatest strategist, said he could play havoc with the US for about a year, then after that, Japan would lose out to the US industrial capacity

All the ships hit at Pearl were obsolete battleships. The Japaneses missed the prime objective, the carriers. Furthermore, the Japanese failed to follow up with another raid to destroy the harbor facilities and oil tanks. These in the end would prove more valuable in the long run of the war than the battleships lost. The USS Yorktown was put back in action in the Midway battle after several days of hasty repair at Pearl after being heavily damaged in a previous battle at Coral sea.

In any case, the US was in no danger seriously being invaded by Japan. The Japanese military fanatics under Tojo, wanted only for Japan to carve out a "Co-prosperity sphere" in the nearby Pacific--which did not include the US. Yamamoto stated no one could not invade the US, because "there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

Now here's my point, and its not going to make a lot of the "Greatest Generation" people happy. The only reason we fought Japan was for two reasons: 1.) Revenge for Pearl Harbor and Bataan, and 2.)to reclaim our "National Interests", i.e., Philippine colony that small interests groups got rich by exploiting.

There was no "righteous crusade" about the conflict. We lost tens to hundreds of thousands of soldiers, sailors, and airmen fighting to capture islands that were pretty much jungle hellholes with no value other than to serve as a forward base for the next attack.

Think about it. If the US had not invaded the Philippines in the Spanish American War in 1898, and took it over as a US territory, would the Japanese viewed the US a threat to their expansion in the Pacific? General MacArthur's egotistical and bombastic "I Shall Return" commitment doomed us to several years of fighting to retake the Philippines for political reasons, not strategic.

Many strategists feel we could have finished the war sooner by going straight to the throat to Japan. But of course, we had to rescue the tens of thousands of US POWs who suffered as sacrificial pawns to FDR's plans to get the US into the war. US solders were used hostages to the conniving plans of presidents seeking to expand our interest overseas. A solder gets killed in a foreign land, the grieving family cries "revenge!, and the president gets to ok for his war.
It's all behavior modification, and governments are good at it.

Don't think we did the Filipinos any favors liberating them. We had a nasty battle in the city of Manila that was almost as bad as Stalingrad in its intensity. 100,000 Filipinos were killed. Had we not occupied the Philippines as a possession, we would not have had 80,000 of our troops there to be attacked and imprisoned. And why did we hold it?
Because some elitists were getting rich off the rubber and tin made off the backs of cheap labor.

Conscience does not exist if not exercised

"No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up!
---Lily Tomlin

FDR was a huge Constitutional error...

...that's all.

THE MORE I LEARN ABOUT GOVERNMENT
THE MORE I LOVE MY GUNS
FourWindsTradingPost

That was already suggested at the very beginning of this thread.

And yet the mods are like the three monkeys.

Have realized by looking objectively

That we had no business being in that war. The oil embargo on Japan was a provocation. Not sure if Roosevelt allowed Pearl Harbor to happen but we know he wanted in that war and lied when he campaigned on a platform to keep us out.

Look to WW I

I think that World War II was avoidable in the sense that Hitler's rise to power was a direct result of World War I and our needless intervention there. But, by the 1930's I think it was too late and war was fairly inevitable at that point. Perhaps if we hadn't gotten into World War I there wouldn't have been a Hitler (of any consequence) and thus no World War II.

No comment

Seriously? Y'all are gonna [sound]bite on this? After that dumb$#!/ last week? Seriously?

In the early 1930s Rep McFadden spoke of money loaned

In the early 1930s Rep McFadden spoke of The Fed's loans to Japan and Germany.

When they reneged on their loans did we loot the gold that Germany had looted from Europe (Who were Kelly's Heroes?) and that Japan had looted from Asia (Stored in the Philippines?) to protect American banking interest, or as a settlement for out own government's bankruptcy?

Where did the Germans and Japanese store their financial records? Dresden and Nagasaki?

Just read the chapter in Zinn's People's History on WWII. Zinn seemed baffled about the causes of the war. What the government said and what they did were oddly unrelated.

When in doubt, follow the Gold. No one really cares to shed blood about much else.

And our government keep putting you and me deeper in debt. What is our collateral?

Why did Libyan fight a "War for Debt." They are screwed now!

Government Debt kills.

Free includes debt-free!

Clever Paul S....

I would like to know if you read this book...

http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Camelot-Seymour-Hersh/dp/031...

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Not yet.

Checked out the preview on Amazon. Thanks.

Free includes debt-free!